Earth is 9,000 years old, says Rep. Paul Broun, who sits on House Science Committee (start

What's your basis for saying that Amish and Mennonites are Arminian?

Anabaptists (Amish, Mennonites etc), while developing independent of Arminianists (indeed before Armininists and Calvinists), share key beliefs with Arminianists.

http://www.rbc.org.nz/library/anabap.htm
Key teachings

Scripture alone as final authority
Need for a pure church of believers, entered through baptism
Pacifism the Word is the Christian's sword in a different Kingdom
Universal atonement (in response to infant baptism for removing original sin)
Free-will and experiential understanding of salvation
Imminent coming of Christ



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist
History

Spread of the early anabaptists in Central Europe

Switzerland

Anabaptism in Switzerland began as an offshoot of the church reforms instigated by Ulrich Zwingli. As early as 1522 it became evident that Zwingli was on a path of reform preaching when he began to question or criticize such Catholic practices as tithes, the mass, and even infant baptism. Zwingli had gathered a group of reform-minded men around him, with whom he studied Classic literature and the Scriptures. However, some of these young men began to feel that Zwingli was not moving fast enough in his reform. The division between Zwingli and his more radical disciples became apparent in an October, 1523 disputation held in Zurich. When the discussion of the mass was about to be ended without making any actual change in practice, Conrad Grebel stood up and asked "what should be done about the mass?" Zwingli responded by saying the Council would make that decisions. At this point, Simon Stumpf, a radical priest from Hongg, answered saying, "The decision has already been made by the Spirit of God."[20]: p.79

This incident illustrated clearly that Zwingli and his more radical disciples had different expectations. To Zwingli, the reforms would only go as fast as the city Council allowed them. To the radicals, the council had no right to make that decision, but rather the Bible was the final authority of church reform. Feeling frustrated, some of them began to meet on their own for Bible study. As early as 1523, William Reublin began to preach against infant baptism in villages surrounding Zurich, encouraging parents to not baptize their children.

Seeking fellowship with other reform-minded people, the radical group wrote letters to Martin Luther, Andreas Karlstadt, and Thomas Müntzer. Felix Manz began to publish some of Karlstadt's writings in Zurich in late 1524. By this time the question of infant baptism had become agitated and the Zurich council had instructed Zwingli to meet weekly with those who rejected infant baptism "until the matter could be resolved."[8]: p.46 Zwingli broke off the meetings after two meetings, and Felix Mantz petitioned the Council to find a solution, since he felt Zwingli was too hard to work with. Council then called a meeting for January 17, 1525.

The Council ruled in this meeting that all who continued to refuse to baptize their infants should be expelled from Zurich if they did not have them baptized within one week. Since Conrad Grebel had refused to baptize his daughter Rachel, born on January 5, 1525, the Council decision was extremely personal to him and others who had not baptized their children. Thus, when sixteen of the radicals met on Saturday evening, January 21, 1525, the situation seemed particularly dark. The Hutterian Chronicle records the event this way:

After prayer, George of the House of Jacob (George Blaurock) stood up and besought Conrad Grebel for God's sake to baptize him with the true Christian baptism upon his faith and knowledge. And when he knelt down with such a request and desire, Conrad baptized him, since at that time there was no ordained minister to perform such work.

After Blaurock was baptized, he in turn baptized others at the meeting. Even though some had rejected infant baptism before this date, these baptisms marked the first re-baptisms of those who had been baptized as infants and thus, technically, Swiss Anabaptism was born on that day. [8][20] [21]
 
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Scripture alone as final authority
Need for a pure church of believers, entered through baptism
Pacifism the Word is the Christian's sword in a different Kingdom
Universal atonement (in response to infant baptism for removing original sin)
Free-will and experiential understanding of salvation
Imminent coming of Christ

A lot of Calvinists believe in free will and an experiential understanding of salvation.
 
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A lot of Calvinists believe in free will and an experiential understanding of salvation.

Some "Calvinists" do not believe in God at all, so I'm not sure what the significance is that some Calvinists believe in free will. But the question is, what do Arminianists believe, since the claim is that Anabaptists are essentially Arminianists. I posted Anabaptist beliefs in a separate thread. The key dispute between John Calvin and Anabaptists (and Calvin singled them out for scorn multiple times in his writings) is that Calvin clung to the Catholic teaching of infant baptism and Anabaptists did not. That and Calvin didn't agree with how the Anabaptist shunned the state.
 
Some "Calvinists" do not believe in God at all, so I'm not sure what the significance is that some Calvinists believe in free will. But the question is, what do Arminianists believe, since the claim is that Anabaptists are essentially Arminianists. I posted Anabaptist beliefs in a separate thread. The key dispute between John Calvin and Anabaptists (and Calvin singled them out for scorn multiple times in his writings) is that Calvin clung to the Catholic teaching of infant baptism and Anabaptists did not. That and Calvin didn't agree with how the Anabaptist shunned the state.

I definitely don't agree with Calvin on everything. And there are issues where I would lean much more toward the anabaptist position than his, including on both baptism and statism.

But what makes them Arminian? Their beliefs on the state and baptism don't. And I don't think belief in free will does. Calvin himself was ambiguous on free will. He essentially shared Augustine's view, and Augustine certainly affirmed it. A lot of theologians who would definitely qualify as Calvinists, such as Jonathan Edwards, defended free will. That doesn't make them any less Calvinist or more Arminian.

I also don't see in what sense those people in the article you linked are Calvinists.
 
I definitely don't agree with Calvin on everything. And there are issues where I would lean much more toward the anabaptist position than his, including on both baptism and statism.

Well in the context of this subthread, the question is are Calvinists less statist than other Christians. That you lean away from Calvin's statism pretty much fits my criticism of Smart3 and Sola_Fide's position that Calvinism is somehow less statist.

But what makes them Arminian? Their beliefs on the state and baptism don't.

What is your understanding of the Arminian, Calvinist and Anabaptist state of the dead? And why does that even matter? You seem to be taking the view that Calvinists can disagree on things like free will, and relational salvation, but Arminianists have to be in 100% agreement on something as esoteric as the state of the dead? That's inconsistent.

And I don't think belief in free will does. Calvin himself was ambiguous on free will. He essentially shared Augustine's view, and Augustine certainly affirmed it. A lot of theologians who would definitely qualify as Calvinists, such as Jonathan Edwards, defended free will. That doesn't make them any less Calvinist or more Arminian.

From the Global Mennonite Anabaptist Encyclopedia Online:
http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A757.html
Arminianism is a theological system named after the Dutch Reformed theologian, Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a popular Reformed preacher in Amsterdam and professor of theology at Leiden University. Arminius rebelled against the more extreme aspects of Calvinistic theology, particularly as they were being taught by Calvin's successors in Switzerland and Holland. He rejected extreme views of predestination and the divine decrees, particularly those under the name of supralapsarianism, which claimed that God had to ordain sin in order that man must be lost so that God could save him. Arminius wished to defend the justice of God and the freedom of man's will, taking the position that predestination was based upon foreknowledge. Because of his views, he was bitterly attacked by Gomarus, a fellow theologian at Leiden. The controversy was not settled before the death of Arminius even though the Dutch government directly intervened. Unfortunately the theological issues became confused with political issues, the Arminians being generally in favor of republicanism in Holland, whereas the Gomarists preferred the monarchy. The leaders of the Arminian party after 1609 were Episcopius, Arminius' successor at Leiden, Uyttenbogaart, Limborch, and Grotius, all men of great talent and scholarship. These men set forth their position in the "Five Articles of the Remonstrance" addressed in 1610 to the Dutch government, in which they rejected the five main ideas of classic Calvinism. The followers of Arminius refused to be called Arminians, taking rather the name Remonstrants.

and:

Mennonites have been historically Arminian in their theology whether they distinctly espoused the Arminian viewpoint or not. They never accepted Calvinism either in the Swiss-South German branch or in the Dutch-North German wing. Nor did any Mennonite confession of faith in any country teach any of the five points of Calvinism. However, in the 20th century, particularly in North America, some Mennonites, having come under the influence of certain Bible institutes and the literature produced by this movement and its schools, have adopted the Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints or "once in grace always in grace." In doing so, they have departed from the historic Arminianism of the Anabaptist-Mennonite movement. To some extent the extreme doctrine of total depravity has also won entrance here and there, although nowhere do the other three Calvinistic articles seem to have won acceptance. It might be mentioned here also that on the other hand some Mennonites, particularly the Mennonite Brethren in Christ, later called United Missionary Church, have also taken over certain ideas from Methodism, particularly the doctrine called "second work of grace," by which is meant a distinct experience of sanctification apart from and subsequent to regeneration.

I also don't see in what sense those people in the article you linked are Calvinists.

That link was to members of the Dutch Reformed Church, which was originally based on the teachings and writings of John Calvin. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church) My point is that when you start saying "Some Calvinists believe X and some believe Y" on something as fundamental as free will and how we are saved, then you really open the door to Calvinists possibly believing anything.

But more important is the question, where do you disagree with Arminianism? You're familiar with TULIP. Here is the Arminianist answer:

http://www.theopedia.com/Five_articles_of_Remonstrance

Article 1

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also. [2]
Article 2

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” [3]
Article 3

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.” [4]
Article 4

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can nei*ther think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inas*much as it is written con*cerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else*where in many places. [5]
Article 5

That those who are in*corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well un*derstood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv*ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be*coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be*fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind. [6]


Where do you disagree?
 
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The whole truth of Calvin and Servetus:

http://www.go-newfocus.co.uk/pages.php?section=21&subsection=2&artID=19
Background to the Servetus affair

Servetus had fled from his home country Spain as a young man to avoid persecution. He had hoped to settle down in Basle where he published his Arian work The Error of the Trinity in 1531, arguing that the doctrine was un-Biblical and a dangerous error, never taught by the Apostles and the Church Fathers. Oecolampadius, the Superintendent of the Basle Church, immediately accused Servetus of heresy, calling his book, ‘blasphemous and impius’ and had him banned from the city. Shortly afterwards, Servetus began to correspond with the young Calvin, a fact that was later used as evidence against Calvin when accused of Arianism by Bern and Basle. When Calvin refused to accept the Athanasian Creed as binding on the Church, this suspicion grew. Pierre Caroli and Myconius remained adamant in claiming that Calvin was an Arian. Bern, who had driven out the Roman Catholic bishop-lords and Savoyan troops from Geneva, now controlled the city and resisted Calvin’s work there for theological and political reasons until the later 1550s.

Servetus now moved from country to country, greatly restricted in his movements by his Roman Catholic and Reformed enemies. As he was a qualified doctor, he practiced medicine under the pseudonym of Villanovanus or de Villaneuve and became famous as a scientist of note. It was Servetus who first discovered the reasons for the circulation of blood. Whilst in Vienna, Servetus was betrayed to the papist authorities, imprisoned and sentenced to death by burning. According to Johannes Friedrich Franz, it was John Calvin who disclosed Servetus’ whereabouts to the Roman Catholics.1 This would be one factor explaining Servetus extreme hatred of Calvin; a hatred which was reciprocated. Another was that Servetus had striven to discredit Calvin in particular and Christianity in general in his DeChristianismi Restitutio (Christianity Reconstructed). In this work, Servetus replaced traditional Christianity by a Neo-Platonist form of pantheism, doing away with the Biblical doctrine of sin and basing his ethics on pre-Christian paganism. This work finally caused the papists to condemn Servetus to be burnt. Even in the papist prison in Vienna, however, Servetus denounced Calvin in the strongest terms, calling him a dealer in magic and a sycophant. He even demanded that the Genevan Senate should put Calvin to death. Servetus managed to escape from prison and was invited to Geneva by very influential citizens such as the Perrins and Bertheliers who were former supporters of Calvin during the his supposed Arian period but had now transferred their allegiance to Servetus whom they wished to set him up in Geneva in Calvin’s stead.

Geneva’s attitude to heretics and blasphemers had always been severe before ever Calvin had any authority whatsoever in the city. Indeed, the party responsible for banishing Calvin from Geneva in 1538 did not hesitate to torture and behead those who left the paths of their church. According to the city records, however, there seems to have been no set punishments for particular ‘crimes’ as one blasphemer was only given a jail sentence on 4 th June, 1539 and people caught dancing on the Sabbath were merely let off with a warning on 20 February, 1539.2 Furthermore, there was not a country or state in Europe at the time in which the denial of the Trinity and blasphemy were not capital crimes. German Lutheran Melanchthon, for instance, otherwise noted for his tolerance, urged the Swiss not to show any leniency whatsoever regarding Servetus who must be put to death. The English Reformers and martyrs condemned Servetus’ errors, going into great detail in analysing and refuting them. Severe laws, it must be remembered, against blasphemy were enforced in the English-speaking world until modern times. However, the major blame given to Calvin as an individual for the burning of Servetus has no historical backing whatsoever. The facts prove that Calvin had neither the power, nor the opportunity, nor the desire to burn Servetus. The Geneva magistrates had initially asked Calvin to give his opinion of Servetus because they were under great pressure from Bern and Basel to undertake action against the blasphemer. Calvin replied mildly that he had little hope of bringing Servetus to his senses and that he needed to learn humility. This was hardly a view which could force a court to condemn anyone to death.

Calvin was ignored in the Servetus trial

When one reads the eulogies concerning Calvin in standard Reformed works such as William Cunningham’s The Reformers and the Theology of the Reformation one gains the impression that Calvin’s ‘commanding influence’ was so great that the Genevan church and secular authorities believed that he was the greatest Christian and the most influential hero since New Testament Times. Such works invariably give the impression that all were at Calvin’s beck and call in Geneva, save for either ne’er-do-wells or papists.3 It is thus commonly thought in certain ‘Reformed’ circles that Calvin had full control over the Geneva magistrates and could influence their legislation. This was by no means the case. Calvin was not even a citizen of Geneva at the time and was very far from being supported unanimously by either the Council or the Church. Indeed, he was constantly in danger of being re-expelled from Geneva for similar reasons to those leading to his expulsion in 1538. On several occasions between 1541 and 1553, he had thought of fleeing from the city because of his own lack of acceptance amongst his fellow ministers and the Genevan Council. Both the Senate and opposition wanted more state and less church but Calvin wanted more church and less state and campaigned for a church which would take over many responsibilities formerly held by the magistrates. During the period of Servetus’ influence in Geneva, Calvin was again threatened with expulsion as we know from his correspondence with Bullinger who begged him to remain firm and keep up his witness in spite of the anti-Calvin riots in the city. Instead of protecting Calvin, the Senate forbade the pro-Calvin French to carry weapons. Such happenings caused August Lang to write in his Zwingli und Calvin “The years 1552 and 1553 were the most bitter and saddening in Calvin’s turbulent life. He experienced disparagement and even contempt.”4On hearing of Servetus’ criticisms of Calvin and the city authorities suspicion of him, Bullinger assured Calvin of his support, remarking that Servetus was no common heretic but a dangerous deceiver of men who was beyond correction and the Geneva magistrates ought to deal with him under the full power of their laws.

Bullinger also told Calvin that the Zürich Senate believed that Geneva should “put a stop to this pestilence”, that is, put Servetus on trial and pronounce the death penalty.5 It is obvious from the context that Bullinger was in full agreement with his Senate which is not surprising as they had sought and followed his advice. When Calvin told Bullinger that he was seriously considering abandoning Geneva, whatever the magistrates decided, Bullinger quoted Acts 18:9-10 to him “Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee: for I have much people in the city.” Bullinger then begged Calvin not to give up the good work he had begun at Geneva. It is, however, at this moment of weakness on Calvin’s part, and at a time when he was in as much danger as Servetus of reaping the anger of the magistrates, that many would have us believe that Calvin ruled Geneva!

After fleeing from Vienna and spending some time in Italy, Servetus, thinking that he would be safe in Geneva because of the anti-Calvin situation, sought asylum there. On 13 August, 1553, Servetus was recognised in Geneva by several citizens who applied for his arrest. Actually, thinking himself secure, Servetus had sat in the congregation of Magdalena Church where Calvin was scheduled to preach! He was quickly brought before the court but the magistrates became nervous because of the strong pro-Servetus lobby. Furthermore, the Director of Public Prosecutions, Rigot was a member of the opposition party and an avowed opponent of Calvin. Calvin’s opinions were of no interest to the court but the majority also refused to be put under pressure by the influential minority who supported Servetus. Not daring to judge Servetus alone, the Genevan magistrates gave up their responsibility as an independent court and told Servetus that they would hand him over to the Roman Catholic authorities who had already condemned him to death by burning. Servetus begged in tears to remain in Geneva. Then the Geneva Senate suggested appealing to their German-Swiss neighbours and protectors, promising they would abide by their decision. Servetus and his defenders agreed at once. Calvin protested against this move but the Senate ignored him completely. He thus wrote to Bullinger on September 7, 1553:

“Our Council will, on an early day, send the opinions of Servetus to your city, to obtain your judgment regarding them. Indeed, they cause you this trouble, despite our remonstrances, but they have reached such a pitch of folly and madness, that they regard with suspicion whatever we say to them. So much so, that were I to allege that it is clear at mid-day, they would forthwith begin to doubt of it.”

Protestant Switzerland unanimous in demanding the death penalty for Servetus

Basel told Geneva that if Servetus did not repent, they should use the powers that God has given them to rid the world of such a danger to the Church. Bern told Geneva to eradicate the plague which had settled down amongst them and burn Servetus at the stake. Bullinger’s Zürich reply was, “No severity is too great to punish this outrage”. The other cantons gave similar judgements. Bullinger wrote to Theodore Beza privately on 30 August, 1553 saying, “But what is your most honourable senate of Geneva going to do with that blasphemous wretch Servetus? If they are wise, and do their duty, they will put him to death, that all the world may perceive that Geneva desires the glory of Christ to be maintained inviolate.”6 It must be noted here that Bullinger did not seek the death penalty for Servetus as a heretic but as a blasphemer of God and one who wished to destroy the statehood and democracy that the Swiss people loved. He believed Servetus was not only a plague to the churches but his system aimed at the total overthrow of civilized society. On 26 October, 1553, the Geneva court sentenced Servetus to death by burning. Calvin pleaded that the sentence should be changed to death by beheading, which was thought more merciful. But nobody at this time in the Senate took any notice of Calvin. In order to hinder opposition from growing, the execution was fixed for the following day. William Farel led Servetus to the scaffold and the convicted man prayed for God’s forgiveness for sins which he had committed in ignorance and for God’s mercy on his enemies. One might well comment here that justice had been turned into injustice but we can scarcely censure our Reformers for being men of their day. Furthermore, had Servetus won his battle against Calvin, as he almost did, Calvin would have certainly taken Servetus place on the scaffold. We would then have not known the final, definitive version of the Institutes, nor would we have been able to read very many of his commentaries choice letters and we would have seen Calvin cut off before his days of eminence at Geneva had begun.

To return to Bullinger’s views on Servetus. The Swiss superintendent, whose friendship with Calvin was unshakeable, could not help telling his Geneva friend that he had made a mess of things and had not spoken up against Servetus when he should have done. Smarting under criticism from all sides, Calvin wrote his very personal Defence against Servetus, after Servetus’ execution, which was published in February 1554. This work angered those who knew Calvin had been forced to take a back seat during the trial. They felt that Calvin was using his book in order to preen his own feathers and rise in public opinion as if he were the real giant-slayer. It is this work which has persuaded many that Calvin was the key figure behind Servetus’ burning. With hindsight, it would have been better for Calvin to have maintained a ‘low profile’ as it appeared to many that he was merely showing everybody that he could no longer be placed under suspicion concerning Servetus’ anti-Trinitarian views. However, even the staunchest Calvinist today will readily confess that Calvin’s doctrine of the Trinity is ‘obscure and unilluminating’ as a recent booklet from the pen of R. T. Beckwith entitled The Calvinist Doctrine of the Trinity points out. Dr Beckwith also shows that in striving to defend and explain Calvin’s speculative Trinitarianism, Professor Paul Helm in his London Theological Seminary lecture of February 12, 2001 entitled Cautious Trinitarianism ran a great risk of falling into Sabellianism. Be that as it may, no sooner was Servetus turned into ashes than new accusations arose claiming that Calvin’s view of God was sub-Christian. Not only Hieronymus Bolsec (died 1585) and Sebastian Castellio (1515-1563) campaigned strongly against Calvin’s view of the Godhead but the Frenchman’s closest friend Bullinger had to reprove him for neglecting the Person of Christ in his fatalistic formulations of God’s sovereignty in election and predestination.

Calvin also annoyed Bullinger greatly by quoting a private letter from his Swiss friend in the book without seeking his permission first. Bullinger told Calvin that he feared that his book would make little impact because of its brevity and obscurity and the weightiness of the subject. He also told Calvin that his style was too perplexing, and added, “I know that you will kindly take this freedom of mine; for I love you from my heart.” Calvin replied to Bullinger in April, 1554 saying:

“ In my little treatise, I have been under a constant apprehension lest my brevity should occasion some obscurity. This, however, I have not been able to guard against, nay with deliberate intention and induced by other reasons, I have not even sought to guard against it. For what I had not only principally but I may say singly proposed to myself, was to make manifest the detestable impiety of Servetus. But an eloquent treatise on the matters in question would have seemed a feat of cunning, and by the pomp of its style, not to refute tenets so impious. In my style, I do not perceive that stateliness which you speak of, on the contrary, I made it my endeavour, so far as it was possible, to give, even to the unlettered reader, a clear notion of the perplexing sophisms of Servetus, without any troublesome deduction or laboured explica*tion. However, it does not escape me that though I am concise in all my writings, in this one I have been more than usually succinct. But let it only appear that with sincere faith and upright zeal, I have been the advocate of sound doctrine, and this single consideration will have more weight with me than that I should repent of the work I have undertaken. You yourself, from your affection towards me, and the natural candour and equity of your temper, judge with indulgence. Others animadvert on me with greater harshness, even a master of cruelty and atrocity - that I now mangle with my pen the dead man who perished by my hands. There are also some not malevolently disposed, who could wish that I had never touched on the question of the punishment of heretics. For they say that all the others, in order to avoid odium, have expressly held their tongues. But it is well that I have you for the partner of my fault, if fault indeed there is, since you were my prompter and exhorter. Look then that you get yourself ready for the contest.”8

The Swiss-German Protestant cantons carry the final responsibility for Servetus’ death at the stake

It is thus obvious that the Swiss-German Protestant cantons, with Bullinger to the fore, were unanimous in condemning Servetus for his blasphemy and godless religion. On the other hand, Geneva showed the most uncertainty as how to proceed. This was because Calvin’s position was not shared by any influential group in either the council or the Church. There was not that unity of mind in the Genevan Church and state that flourished in Bern, Basle and especially Zürich. Of the Reformers, Calvin was not the most vigorous in condemning Servetus, possibly because he was in no position to say much in the city about him at all. Indeed, Bullinger sat far more firmly in the Zürich saddle than ever Calvin sat on his Genevan counterpart. He was also most likely able to view the matter more objectively, not being directly and personally involved in the controversy as was Calvin. If any one man can be given the responsibility for Servetus death, it must be Bullinger who strongly influenced the other cantons in reaching a decision. Thus, the idea that it was Calvin’s iron rule of the Geneva Senate which forced them to burn Servetus, a myth both critics of the Reformation and some mis-informed Reformed men themselves love to affirm, is without any historical backing whatsoever. Old prejudices die hard and though, for instance, August Land says that Calvin’s influence in Geneva at this time was the lowest that it had ever been, and it had had many ups and downs, he still gives Calvin full responsibility for Servetus’ burning. He accuses Calvin of not being man enough to confess that he was behind Servetus’ arrest and execution but he brings no evidence whatsoever to support his theory.9 One thing is, however, certain. After Servetus’ execution, Calvin’s star began once again to ascend in Geneva. Now most of the partisan Genevans who had opposed French influence had been driven from the city, being replaced by thousands of French Protestant refugees. Along with these outcasts, the city at last gave Calvin full citizenship and voting rights. Bern, however, waited until 1564, the year of Calvin’s death before persuading the Savoy to allow Geneva and the Vaud to become part of the Swiss Confederacy or Eidgenossenschaft.
 
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Well in the context of this subthread, the question is are Calvinists less statist than other Christians. That you lean away from Calvin's statism pretty much fits my criticism of Smart3 and Sola_Fide's position that Calvinism is somehow less statist.

Yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with Arminianism versus Calvinism. It doesn't make anabaptists Arminian. They might be, I don't know. But it's not for that reason. I don't think Arminianism differs from Calvinism on doctrines related to statism.

On the state, while I think that anabaptists were better than Calvin, they were a pretty insignificant minority, and it may still be that Calvin's Geneva was better than what predominated in the rest of Europe. I don't know. But if I were to make a comparison to say that Calvin was either better or worse than the norm, it would be a comparison between his government and other governments, not his government and the anabaptists.

What is your understanding of the Arminian, Calvinist and Anabaptist state of the dead? And why does that even matter? You seem to be taking the view that Calvinists can disagree on things like free will, and relational salvation, but Arminianists have to be in 100% agreement on something as esoteric as the state of the dead? That's inconsistent.
I haven't kept up with the whole thread, but whatever anyone said about the state of the dead, that wasn't me, and I don't know anything about how it fits this issue. I wouldn't appeal the anabaptists' view of the state of the dead to say they're either Calvinists or Arminians any more than I would appeal to their view of free will.

All I was saying was that what you posted in order to say they were Arminian didn't indicate that they were.

Mennonites have been historically Arminian in their theology whether they distinctly espoused the Arminian viewpoint or not. They never accepted Calvinism either in the Swiss-South German branch or in the Dutch-North German wing. Nor did any Mennonite confession of faith in any country teach any of the five points of Calvinism. However, in the 20th century, particularly in North America, some Mennonites, having come under the influence of certain Bible institutes and the literature produced by this movement and its schools, have adopted the Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints or "once in grace always in grace." In doing so, they have departed from the historic Arminianism of the Anabaptist-Mennonite movement. To some extent the extreme doctrine of total depravity has also won entrance here and there, although nowhere do the other three Calvinistic articles seem to have won acceptance. It might be mentioned here also that on the other hand some Mennonites, particularly the Mennonite Brethren in Christ, later called United Missionary Church, have also taken over certain ideas from Methodism, particularly the doctrine called "second work of grace," by which is meant a distinct experience of sanctification apart from and subsequent to regeneration.

That's much more relevant. Thanks.

That link was to members of the Dutch Reformed Church, which was originally based on the teachings and writings of John Calvin. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Reformed_Church) My point is that when you start saying "Some Calvinists believe X and some believe Y" on something as fundamental as free will and how we are saved, then you really open the door to Calvinists possibly believing anything.

I don't see how it opens that door. Those people may have been part of the Dutch Reformed Church organizationally, but that in itself doesn't make them Calvinists, while I'd say being atheists does mean they aren't. The word "Calvinist" has a meaning, and rejection of free will is not a part of it.



But more important is the question, where do you disagree with Arminianism? You're familiar with TULIP. Here is the Arminianist answer:
http://www.theopedia.com/Five_articles_of_Remonstrance

Article 1

That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also. [2]
Article 2

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” [3]
Article 3

That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5, “Without me ye can do nothing.” [4]
Article 4

That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awakening, following and cooperative grace, can nei*ther think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. but respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible; inas*much as it is written con*cerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost. Acts 7, and else*where in many places. [5]
Article 5

That those who are in*corporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well un*derstood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was deliv*ered them, of losing a good conscience, of be*coming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, be*fore we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our mind. [6]


Where do you disagree?

One part I disagree with is "it is not irresistible." Also, my differences with them have as much to do with things they don't say there as things they do. For example, when they say:
That God, by an eternal and unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
this is true. But they see it as God determining something for a generic group and not specific individuals. It's important to know that God determined everything they say here, and also that he determined that specific individuals would be those ones who believe and persevere, such that when they do believe and persevere it is wholly of God. This is the same problem I have with when they say that no one enjoys the benefits of the cross except the believer, since again, who is a believer is something God ultimately determines. But given that caveat, yes I agree with what they said in that section that there is something the cross accomplishes for all, and there is something it accomplishes only for the elect.

Also, the Articles of Remonstrance weren't a response to TULIP. TULIP was a response to them.
 
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Yes. But that doesn't have anything to do with Arminianism versus Calvinism. It doesn't make anabaptists Arminian. They might be, I don't know. But it's not for that reason.

Discussions of who is/isn't statist is what started this particular branch of the subthread. Minor, but important point IMO.

I haven't kept up with the whole thread, but whatever anyone said about the state of the dead, that wasn't me, and I don't know anything about how it fits this issue. I wouldn't appeal the anabaptists' view of the state of the dead to say they're either Calvinists or Arminians any more than I would appeal to their view of free will.

:confused: You said But what makes them Arminian? Their beliefs on the state and baptism don't. What prompted you to say that? I have no idea what the Anabaptist view on the state of the dead is. I assumed since you made a statement about anabaptists and the state of the dead you were referring to...well...something. I certainly didn't bring it up. Regardless, I think we both can agree that state of the dead is irrelevant to the discussion.

All I was saying was that what you posted in order to say they were Arminian didn't indicate that they were.

But I didn't post anything about the state of the dead.

Edit: I guess you're going from this information from the link I posted?

The "Martyrs Synod", Augsburg, August 1527

This Synod (so-called the "Martyrs Synod" because only 2 of the original 60 odd delegates were alive 5 years later) was organized by Denck and Hut. The Synod aimed to prepare the churches for witnessing in the last days - a time expected to end in 1528. To this end, the recently formulated Nicolsburg Articles were presented. They consisted of:

A three-fold baptism of the Spirit, water and suffering marks out God's children.
The Kingdom of God consists of the poor in spirit.
The one body of believers in communion. Each one is to show mutual concern for the others another in admonition and the sharing of goods.
The earth will be purged of evil by fire, and thereby made ready for the descent of the Kingdom.
At the final judgment., all true believers vindicated and reign in righteousness.
The souls of the dead sleep until the resurrection.
All who reject the Inner Light given to all men will suffer torment.



Note the part that's underlined. "All who reject the Inner Light given to all men will suffer torment". That's where Anabaptist theology is closer to Arminian theology than Calvinist. The idea that "inner light" is "given to all men", but that some "reject" it. Now you might debate what "Inner Light" is. Well, if it's a "gift from God" it is by definition a "grace". So here are Anabaptists saying that all men receive this gift, but that the gift is resistible, and that resistance is the difference between those who are saved and those who are lost.

That's much more relevant. Thanks.

You're welcome.

I don't see how it opens that door. Those people may have been part of the Dutch Reformed Church organizationally, but that in itself doesn't make them Calvinists, while I'd say being atheists does mean they aren't. The word "Calvinist" has a meaning, and rejection of free will is not a part of it.

And your definition of the word "Calvinist" is....?

One part I disagree with is "it is not irresistible." Also, my differences with them have as much to do with things they don't say there as things they do. For example, when they say:

So man lacks the freewill to "resist grace" in your worldview and the freewill to "accept grace" if they are in the other group, but somehow they still have "free will". Got it.

Also, the Articles of Remonstrance weren't a response to TULIP. TULIP was a response to them.

Okay.
 
Well in the context of this subthread, the question is are Calvinists less statist than other Christians. That you lean away from Calvin's statism pretty much fits my criticism of Smart3 and Sola_Fide's position that Calvinism is somehow less statist.



What is your understanding of the Arminian, Calvinist and Anabaptist state of the dead? And why does that even matter? You seem to be taking the view that Calvinists can disagree on things like free will, and relational salvation, but Arminianists have to be in 100% agreement on something as esoteric as the state of the dead? That's inconsistent.



From the Global Mennonite Anabaptist Encyclopedia Online:
http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/A757.html
Arminianism is a theological system named after the Dutch Reformed theologian, Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609), a popular Reformed preacher in Amsterdam and professor of theology at Leiden University. Arminius rebelled against the more extreme aspects of Calvinistic theology, particularly as they were being taught by Calvin's successors in Switzerland and Holland. He rejected extreme views of predestination and the divine decrees, particularly those under the name of supralapsarianism, which claimed that God had to ordain sin in order that man must be lost so that God could save him. Arminius wished to defend the justice of God and the freedom of man's will, taking the position that predestination was based upon foreknowledge. Because of his views, he was bitterly attacked by Gomarus, a fellow theologian at Leiden. The controversy was not settled before the death of Arminius even though the Dutch government directly intervened. Unfortunately the theological issues became confused with political issues, the Arminians being generally in favor of republicanism in Holland, whereas the Gomarists preferred the monarchy. The leaders of the Arminian party after 1609 were Episcopius, Arminius' successor at Leiden, Uyttenbogaart, Limborch, and Grotius, all men of great talent and scholarship. These men set forth their position in the "Five Articles of the Remonstrance" addressed in 1610 to the Dutch government, in which they rejected the five main ideas of classic Calvinism. The followers of Arminius refused to be called Arminians, taking rather the name Remonstrants.

and:

Mennonites have been historically Arminian in their theology whether they distinctly espoused the Arminian viewpoint or not. They never accepted Calvinism either in the Swiss-South German branch or in the Dutch-North German wing. Nor did any Mennonite confession of faith in any country teach any of the five points of Calvinism. However, in the 20th century, particularly in North America, some Mennonites, having come under the influence of certain Bible institutes and the literature produced by this movement and its schools, have adopted the Calvinist doctrine of the perseverance of the saints or "once in grace always in grace." In doing so, they have departed from the historic Arminianism of the Anabaptist-Mennonite movement. To some extent the extreme doctrine of total depravity has also won entrance here and there, although nowhere do the other three Calvinistic articles seem to have won acceptance. It might be mentioned here also that on the other hand some Mennonites, particularly the Mennonite Brethren in Christ, later called United Missionary Church, have also taken over certain ideas from Methodism, particularly the doctrine called "second work of grace," by which is meant a distinct experience of sanctification apart from and subsequent to regeneration.

thanks for posting and saving me the time...
 
Discussions of who is/isn't statist is what started this particular branch of the subthread. Minor, but important point IMO.

Granted. But the differences between the anabaptists and Calvin on that I don't think have anything to do with being Arminians.


:confused: You said But what makes them Arminian? Their beliefs on the state and baptism don't. What prompted you to say that? I have no idea what the Anabaptist view on the state of the dead is. I assumed since you made a statement about anabaptists and the state of the dead you were referring to...well...something. I certainly didn't bring it up. Regardless, I think we both can agree that state of the dead is irrelevant to the discussion.

I said "the state and baptism." I didn't say "the state of the dead."

And your definition of the word "Calvinist" is....?
At the very least someone who believes in unconditional election. I'm fine with using TULIP as a definition. But I think people can be relatively close to TULIP while still needing to clarify certain points. And anyway none of the points of TULIP involve rejecting free will. I don't see any mention of free will in the Articles of the Remonstrance either.

So man lacks the freewill to "resist grace" in your worldview and the freewill to "accept grace" if they are in the other group, but somehow they still have "free will". Got it.
Again, I don't see how the term "free will" gets into this. I can believe in irresistible grace with or without believing in free will. All people naturally and freely choose to be God's enemies. But God does a work for some which results without fail in them freely choosing to believe in Jesus.
 
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I had a Christian geology professor (PhD) who believed the Earth to be much older than 9,000 years lol. You can be a Christian and scientist... they are not dichotomous.
 
Granted. But the differences between the anabaptists and Calvin on that I don't think have anything to do with being Arminians.

Just on them not being Calvinists.

I said "the state and baptism." I didn't say "the state of the dead."

My mistake. :o

At the very least someone who believes in unconditional election. I'm fine with using TULIP as a definition. But I think people can be relatively close to TULIP while still needing to clarify certain points. And anyway none of the points of TULIP involve rejecting free will. I don't see any mention of free will in the Articles of the Remonstrance either.

It's mentioned in article 2.

Again, I don't see how the term "free will" gets into this. I can believe in irresistible grace with or without believing in free will. All people naturally and freely choose to be God's enemies. But God does a work for some which results without fail in them freely choosing to believe in Jesus.

If they have no choice in the matter then they aren't freely choosing Jesus. Anyway, I think it's pretty settled from the Mennonite website itself that they are more Arminianist than Calvinist.
 
If they have no choice in the matter then they aren't freely choosing Jesus.
In my view they do have a choice. And God will never fail in bringing them to choose what he in eternity past determined they would choose.

Anyway, I think it's pretty settled from the Mennonite website itself that they are more Arminianist than Calvinist.
Based on what you've shown me, I agree.
 
Really? He "ruled with an iron fist"? What office did Calvin hold?

Your own words-
When you understand the magesterial reformation, and when you understand that the entire world (Romanism and Protestantism) was a fusion of church and state at the time, and when you educate yourself about the events surrounding Servetus and Calvin's role in it (he wasn't even a citizen of Geneva at the time), then we can have a discussion about it.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?390437-Video-Why-Islam-Is-The-Anti-Christ/page10

AGAIN this is your Calvin:
"The death penalty against heresy, idolatry, and blasphemy, and the barbarous custom of the torture were retained. Adultery after the second offence, was likewise punished by death.
"These were prohibitive and protective laws intended to prevent and punish irreligion and immorality......Watchmen were appointed to see that people went to church. The members of the Consistory visited every house once a year to examine into the faith and morals of the family. Every unseemly word and act on the street was reported, and the offenders were cited before the Consistory to be either censured or warned, or handed over to the Council for severer punishment." (HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH , Phillip Schaff, Page 490-491, Volume 8)

"A man was banished from the city for three months because, on hearing an ass bray, he said jestingly: "He prays a beautiful psalm."....
"Three men who laughed during the sermon were imprisoned for three days..........
"A girl was beheaded for striking her parents, to vindicate the fifth commandment.....
"A banker was executed for repeated adultery,....." (HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH , Phillip Schaff, Page 491-492, Volume 8)

"During the ravages of the pestilence in 1545 more than twenty men and women were burnt alive for witchcraft, and a wicked conspiracy to spread the horrible disease. From 1542 to 1546 fifty-eight judgments of death and seventy-six decrees of banishments were passed. During the years 1558 and 1559 the cases of various punishments for all sorts of offences amounted to four hundred and fourteen - a very large proportion for a population of 20,000. " (HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH , Phillip Schaff, Page 492-493, Volume 8)

"Calvin himself states:...."A conspiracy of men and women has lately been discovered, who for the space of three years, has spread the plague through the city by what mischievous device I know not. After fifteen women have been burnt, some men have even been punished more severely, some have committed suicide in prison, and while twenty-five are still kept prisoners,- the conspirators do not cease,....(HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH , Phillip Schaff, Page 492, footnote 27 Volume 8)

As well as Servetus since you want to bring that up all the time...

Calvin:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
Written by John Calvin in a letter to Farel Feb. 13, 1546

Calvin writes Farel in a letter dated Aug 20th 1553 where he has Servetus arrested.
"We have now new business in hand with Servetus. He intended perhaps passing through this city; for it is not yet known with what design he came. But after he had been recognized, I thought that he should be detained. My friend Nicolas summoned him on a capital charge. ... I hope that sentence of death will at least be passed upon him"

After Servetus' death:
"Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face."

"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt."

1561 letter from Calvin to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre:

"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."

Mini history from a non-church source regarding Calvin and Geneva.

In the thought of Calvin, state and church were distinct, but each in its proper sphere was to cooperate with the other in their great common purpose: to serve and glorify God. By the end of his career he had achieved a complete dominance of Geneva, which makes it possible for us to see what his full program was. All inhabitants had to renounce the Roman faith on penalty of expulsion from the city. Nobody could possess images, crucifixes or other articles associated with the Roman worship. Fasting was prohibited, together with vows, pilgrimages, prayers for the dead, and prayers in Latin. Nobody could say anything good about the pope. It was forbidden to give non-Biblical names to children. In 1555, a man who had been found lighting a candle before the body of his dead child was called before the Consistory.

Attendance at sermons was compulsory. In addition, one had to arrive on time, remain, and pay attention. In 1547, a man who left during the sermon and made too much noise about it was imprisoned. From 1545, there were domiciliary visits, which were put on a regular semiannual basis in 1550. The homes of the citizens were visited in order to ascertain the state of the family's morals. A great many spies were maintained, to report on matters of conduct and behavior. Dramatic performances were suppressed, except for plays given by schoolboys. Sexual immorality was frequently practiced and frequently chastised. One of the offenses considered particularly serious was criticism of the ministers and especially Calvin.

From 1546, cards and dice were forbidden. There were to be no taverns; instead, places were provided for eating and drinking, in which pious behavior would be encouraged. In these nurseries of righteousness, a Bible in French was to be displayed, religious conversation encouraged, and excessive drinking, indecent songs, cursing, cards, dice, and dancing forbidden. They were to close at nine in the evening. This experiment lasted three months, during which people did not come to these places, and then the taverns were opened once more. It was many years before all these regulations were put into effect; as a matter of fact, opposition to Calvin was quite serious for several years after his return in 1541. His opponents were not necessarily wicked and immoral, although there were persons of that description among them. There were very strong political motives impelling hostility to his regime. The foreign refugees who poured into the city and strongly supported Calvin appeared as a threat to the native citizens. Though there were some who disagreed with Calvin's doctrines, his enemies were not Catholics but supporters of the Reformation. Some of them were members of prominent Geneva families, who defied Calvin's strict moral regulations, possibly under the erroneous impression that their social status would protect them.

The most serious aspect of the situation, from Calvin's point of view, was that his enemies were gaining seats in the councils and were being elected as syndics. There was friction between Calvin and the councils, which also took over more and more control of church affairs. In 1553 his opponents secured a majority in the council and tried to deprive the Consistory of the power to excommunicate. Calvin's courageous resistance to this attempt helped to turn the tide in his favor, and the year 1553 marks the turning point in the struggle with his enemies.

This same year saw the trial and death of Michael Servetus, which helped to strengthen Calvin's hold on the city...

This combination of civil and ecclesiastical authorities, of Catholics and Protestants, in hounding to death one radical thinker is generally agreed to be one of the unloveliest episodes in the history of the Reformation. It did not go uncondemned even in its own day. In fact, it aroused so much opposition that Calvin felt compelled to issue a defense in both Latin and French versions in 1554; here he argued for the right to put to death those who dishonored God by teaching false doctrine...

The execution of Servetus helped to solidify Calvin's hold on Geneva. In 1555, his friends were victorious in the elections, and a riot gave an excuse for crushing his enemies, some of whom fled while others were put to death. From 1555 to his death in 1564, Calvin was supreme in the city. Not only in the church but also in the state was his influence dominant; the councils treated him with great reverence and respect, granted his requests, and consulted him on matters of public policy. In 1559 he was asked to accept citizenship in Geneva, which he had previously refrained from doing to avoid the appearance of self-seeking. One of the most significant signs of his victory was that the right of excommunication was acknowledged to belong to the Consistory. This was something that Calvin had wanted since his first appearance in Geneva; until this time, however, the council had always insisted on taking part. From now on, the Consistory received the wholehearted cooperation of the civil authorities and the full Calvinist regime, as described earlier, was imposed on the citizens. Regulations were made more strict: For example, ministers were to have their dwellings throughout the city, in order to watch over vice more effectively. In 1558, edicts were issued that closely regulated clothing and food, to repress the extravagance that had prevailed in these areas. In 1561, the Ecclesiastical Ordinances of the Church of Geneva of 1541 were revised in such a way as to conform more closely to Calvin's wishes. The press was censored by the ministers. Crosses that remained on the church spires were removed. The number of excommunications rose. There had been eighty in the four years from 1551 54; in 1555 there were nearly a hundred; in 1556, the number reached one hundred forty; and in 1559 over three hundred were excommunicated. ...

Calvin died on May 27, 1564, to the great sorrow of the councils, the ministers and the people of Geneva. He was then, and has remained, the object of great admiration and intense devotion on the one hand, of bitter dislike and even hatred on the other. One fault that Calvin himself admitted and deplored was his violent temper. Toward those who disagreed with him he could express himself with the bitter vituperation that was characteristic of controversy in his day. He was extremely sensitive to any personal criticism or any sign of disrespect. After he had gained ascendancy in Geneva, the citizens were punished or reprimanded for criticizing his preaching or even for greeting him without calling him "Master." He displayed a vindictiveness toward his enemies, which did not rest until they were crushed and humiliated.

http://vlib.iue.it/carrie/texts/carrie_books/gilbert/14.html
 
It's mentioned in article 2.

Interesting. You're right (although it's Article 3 if I read it right). The single mention of free will in the Articles of the Remonstrance is to deny it. This does not support a claim that the thing which makes Arminians different than Calvinists is a belief in free will.
 
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Anyway, I think it's pretty settled from the Mennonite website itself that they are more Arminianist than Calvinist.

Most any Mennonite site will tell you this when questioned...

(meaning they are mostly Arminian in practice)

I guess I took this as common knowledge because it was for me. I didn't realize it was going to be this big of a production since I knew of it through first hand knowledge.
 
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Interesting. You're right (although it's Article 3 if I read it right). The single mention of free will in the Articles of the Remonstrance is to deny it. This does not support a claim that the thing which makes Arminians different than Calvinists is a belief in free will.

Actually....that's not quite accurate. Remember that Arminianists began as Calvinists. So while they denied the ability of man to do anything good without the power of God (as do I), they recognized that Jesus died to give grace to all men.

That agreeably thereunto, Jesus Christ the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of 1 John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” [3]
Article 3


So, here's the catch. Unless you want to jump through Calvinistic hoops to say "all" means something other than "all", or unless you're going to take the unilateralist approach and teach that all men are eventually saved, there has to be some other mechanism for men to be lost. Hence...free will. Without Jesus death on the cross and the ministry of the Holy Spirit, there would be no possibility of salvation, or even men truly desiring salvation. But with Christ all things are possible. The only question is, does all things being possible mean all things are inevitable. Calvinists say yes (irresistible grace), Armininists say no (resistible grace).
 
Most any Mennonite site will tell you this when questioned...

(meaning they are mostly Arminian in practice)

I guess I took this as common knowledge because it was for me. I didn't realize it was going to be this big of a production since I knew of it through first hand knowledge.

I have never asked a Mennonite about this issue. But I have talked to them about other beliefs. My general impression is that they're generally not into systematic theology, and when they highlight what distinguishes them as Mennonites, it's not this issue.
 
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