Earth is 9,000 years old, says Rep. Paul Broun, who sits on House Science Committee (start

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

One thing that is cool about the times is that there is a very anti-establishment sentiment among educated Christians. By educated, I mean Christians who take doctrine seriously. Most of the time, Christians who are educated doctrinally are also educated about the evils of government. Most of the time, the more Reformed or doctrinally conservative Christians are the more anti-government. (Yes, I'm generalizing). They are more inclined to view the government as too intrusive and they view homeschooling as a way to fight establishment science.

The ideas of liberty are appealing to Christians who see the emergence of this atheistic/secular scientific state.

Liberty, or just aspects of their own personal values? I see the latter. Where are all these Thomas Paine like 'conservatives' who would raise their hand in allegiance with this sound principle:

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Where are they? Sure, I don't deny there are some, but your narrow view of 'anti-government' as homeschooling against establishment science is...not liberty. Liberty is not bits and pieces - it is encompassing, universal, and covers all human action. That isn't to say, I am not thrilled that there are indeed a lot of homeschool advocates amongst this segment of the population, because they are valuable allies in this one area, however, they are often enemies in many more areas than they are allies.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The world is 4.566 billion years old. Anyone who disputes this is rejecting God. (because afterall, you believe God created Earth)

It is not logical to believe in God, let alone believe this god created the Universe, or had a timetable of creation.



Paul
Amash
McClintock
Johnson (Tim)
Jones
Labrador
Walsh
Duncan
Graves
Braun

The dogma on both sides of this claim is silly and ignorant. It fails to account for relativity. When you start applying relativity, astrophysics, etc, you can make good arguments for any figure you care to pull out of your ass.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

The dogma on both sides of this claim is silly and ignorant. It fails to account for relativity. When you start applying relativity, astrophysics, etc, you can make good arguments for any figure you care to pull out of your ass.

I assume when people put this in time, they mean Earth-time, using current observance. (E.g. in reality, it could be much older or younger, in relation to other objects - we would need to know the speed of the Earth from inception to now, which...yeah, not going to happen)

 

[Sola_Fide]

Liberty, or just aspects of their own personal values? I see the latter. Where are all these Thomas Paine like 'conservatives' who would raise their hand in allegiance with this sound principle:

He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.

Where are they? Sure, I don't deny there are some, but your narrow view of 'anti-government' as homeschooling against establishment science is...not liberty. Liberty is not bits and pieces - it is encompassing, universal, and covers all human action. That isn't to say, I am not thrilled that there are indeed a lot of homeschool advocates amongst this segment of the population, because they are valuable allies in this one area, however, they are often enemies in many more areas than they are allies.

There are more Christians who are evaluating their entire view of government right now than you think. I would go out on a limb and say there are more Christians evaluating their view of government than atheist warriors. In my own experience, it is the atheist warriors who are the unconvertable statists.

My only point was that it is a unique time for Christians. Christians have a tradition in this country of being anti-state. I would take the generation of Christians who gave us the Articles of Confederation over the masses of secular statists we have around today. Educated Christians can be converted to the freedom message today more than ever.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

There are more Christians who are evaluating their entire view of government right now than you think. I would go out on a limb and say there are more Christians evaluating their view of government than atheist warriors. In my own experience, it is the atheist warriors who are the unconvertable statists.

My only point was that it is a unique time for Christians. Christians have a tradition in this country of being anti-state. I would take the generation of Christians who gave us the Articles of Confederation over the masses of secular statists we have around today. Educated Christians can be converted to the freedom message today more than ever.

Christians as anti-state? Sure, some. Some, not so. They aren't homogenous. To make such a broad claim completely misses the colonization of this land by European Christian settlers who were RABID statists - in fact, many Communists. What they don't teach you in Government schools is that the Plymouth Pilgrims starved because of they were Communists. I could go on with many more examples, but suffice to say, I appreciate those Christians who were anti-state, but to say they made a majority is sadly not true.

Not only that, not everyone who gave us the AoC were Christians. Many were Deists, some even Atheists. Frankly, I don't care what religion you follow - all I care about is if you respect and agitate for liberty.

I'll leave that up to you. As a Deist I don't have to do much 'converting' because we're all pretty much the same as we were in the 1780s - almost all libertarians.

 

[Dr.3D]

Another good article as to how old the universe is and the six days of creation.

The Dialogue of Science with Religion: God Did Not Create the Universe in Six Days--or Did He?
http://socialjusticereview.org/arti...not-create-the-universe-in-six-days-or-did-he

 

[Sola_Fide]

Christians as anti-state? Sure, some. Some, not so. They aren't homogenous. To make such a broad claim completely misses the colonization of this land by European Christian settlers who were RABID statists - in fact, many Communists. What they don't teach you in Government schools is that the Plymouth Pilgrims starved because of they were Communists. I could go on with many more examples, but suffice to say, I appreciate those Christians who were anti-state, but to say they made a majority is sadly not true.

Not only that, not everyone who gave us the AoC were Christians. Many were Deists, some even Atheists. Frankly, I don't care what religion you follow - all I care about is if you respect and agitate for liberty.

I'll leave that up to you. As a Deist I don't have to do much 'converting' because we're all pretty much the same as we were in the 1780s - almost all libertarians.

So, in your view, would it be nice to have the type of freedom that most Christians (excepting the Christians in the communist enclaves) were amenable to? I mean, do you deny that there was a reliance on self-government among Christians that is just not present today in them?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Christians as anti-state? Sure, some. Some, not so. They aren't homogenous. To make such a broad claim completely misses the colonization of this land by European Christian settlers who were RABID statists - in fact, many Communists. What they don't teach you in Government schools is that the Plymouth Pilgrims starved because of they were Communists. I could go on with many more examples, but suffice to say, I appreciate those Christians who were anti-state, but to say they made a majority is sadly not true.

Not only that, not everyone who gave us the AoC were Christians. Many were Deists, some even Atheists. Frankly, I don't care what religion you follow - all I care about is if you respect and agitate for liberty.

I'll leave that up to you. As a Deist I don't have to do much 'converting' because we're all pretty much the same as we were in the 1780s - almost all libertarians.

+A bunch. Christians (as well as Jews and Muslims, for that matter) have always been extremely diverse, and it's a huge mistake to try and make universal statements about them in almost every case.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

So, in your view, would it be nice to have the type of freedom that most Christians (excepting the Christians in the communist enclaves) were amenable to? I mean, do you deny that there was a reliance on self-government among Christians that is just not present today in them?

I'd kill for an entire country of Pre-William Penn Pennsylvania. Quaker Anarchy ftw. (I think I've made it known before that I think the most highly of Quakers in the Christian denomination) However, yes, I'd rather have Christians from 1750 than today, but really, it would probably be from those folks in New York. So many Christians fought against Jefferson calling him all sorts of names and saying he would bring hell to America because he wasn't 'Christian'. So, there are strong corollaries from then to today.

 

[Sola_Fide]

+A bunch. Christians (as well as Jews and Muslims, for that matter) have always been extremely diverse, and it's a huge mistake to try and make universal statements about them in almost every case.

I hate to spoil the atheist revisionist ideas, but to deny that there was a distinctly anti-government sentiment AND a distinctly Christian sentiment in the country at that time is just...wrong.

Alexis de Tocqueville noted the difference between France and America in regards to religion immediately:

Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention; and the longer I stayed there, the more did I perceive the great political consequences resulting from this state of things, to which I was unaccustomed. In France I had almost always seen the spirit of religion and the spirit of freedom pursuing courses diametrically opposed to each other; but in America I found that they were intimately united, and that they reigned in common over the same country.

I love that quote because it underscores that the kind of Christianity which was the ethos of that time (Calvinism) was upholding freedom instead of fighting against it.

 

[Smart3]

Calvinists are usually pro-freedom, and it's no surprise then that Geneva is one of the freest places on Earth to this day.

In many ways, it was the introduction of non-Reformed (especially Arminian and Catholic) immigrants to this country that caused the erosion of our Constitution. (and remember, this isn't a fundamentalist Reformed Baptist writing this)

 

[ronpaulfollower999]

IMO, a true Christian would reject the authority of the state, and submit to God. Christians should be libertarians.

 

[Sola_Fide]

In many ways, it was the introduction of non-Reformed (especially Arminian and Catholic) immigrants to this country that caused the erosion of our Constitution. (and remember, this isn't a fundamentalist Reformed Baptist writing this)

Were you being facetious? C. Gregg Singer wrote a great book called A Theological Interpretation Of American History and that was his thesis. It's one of my favorite books.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1599252236/ref=mp_s_a_1?pi=SL75&qid=1349586257&sr=8-1

 

[Smart3]

IMO, a true Christian would reject the authority of the state, and submit to God. Christians should be libertarians.

1. No true Scotsman
2. That's a double-edged sword because all the verses you cite for Christian Libertarianism can be rebutted by verses advocating Socialism (of which there are way more)
3. Mark 12:17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.

Were you being facetious? C. Gregg Singer wrote a great book called A Theological Interpretation Of American History and that was his thesis. It's one of my favorite books.

I was serious.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

IMO, a true Christian would reject the authority of the state, and submit to God. Christians should be libertarians.

Indeed. Christians should be voluntaryists - it was the message Jesus preached. He didn't run to Rome to solve the ills of society - he acted on his own. You'd probably enjoy Tolstoy.

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

I find it cringe-worthy when people who obviously don't know the first thing about physics -- who probably haven't even taken a single university course in calculus-based classical mechanics, let alone possess a doctorate in physics with a specialization in cosmology -- express strong opinions on matters like gravity, time, and space. That would be like me lecturing a Russian ballet star on her technique or correcting a linguist on Italian grammar, even though I know absolutely nothing about these things.

Everyone has the right to have an opinion on subjects that aren't matters of fact, but an opinion on any factual matter is WORTHLESS unless it is an informed one. To be knowledgeable about the physics of the origin of the universe, a graduate degree in physics or mathematics (or, equivalently, about 7-10 years of full-time, intensive study, preferably under a knowledgeable tutor) is the bare minimum preparation you need, and it has to be in a relevant sub-specialty of physics or math. In particular, if you don't know tensor calculus and general relativity, your opinion on the subject doesn't count. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the truth.

No one can know about everything. I certainly don't come close. But I've studied enough science to know just how much I don't know. We all need to be humble when confronted with subjects that are alien to us, and if we want to learn about those subjects, we need to devote years of extreme effort to attain that knowledge. There are no shortcuts.

With that rant out of the way, obviously Rep. Broun suffers from extreme scientific ignorance. There are multiple independent lines of evidence proving that the earth is billions of years old. No reasonable doubt exists. But like others here, I don't care about Broun's or anyone else's beliefs so much as about their views on policy. I can be friends with people who know nothing about science as long as they have a "live and let live" philosophy.

 

[GuerrillaXXI]

IMO, a true Christian would reject the authority of the state, and submit to God. Christians should be libertarians.

I'm no longer religious, but I agree with you. The New Testament seems to support libertarianism pretty solidly. Jesus is repeatedly shown to be quite adamant about the need for his followers to avoid adopting judgmental attitudes toward others.

For example, the story about the adulteress whom Jesus saved from the punishment of stoning makes clear that Jesus would not have thought very highly of the modern drug war; after all, drug sales to and usage by adults are even more "victimless" than adultery. If Jesus didn't think people were sufficiently holy to punish even someone guilty of adultery -- one of the most serious sins in Christianity -- how is it that so many self-styled Christians believe they have the right to have people thrown into prison for smoking pot or selling acid to their willing friends?

Christianity teaches people to worry about their own sins first, and that is a very libertarian attitude.

 

[Sola_Fide]

“All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell,” Broun said. “And it’s lies to try to keep me and all the folks who were taught that from understanding that they need a savior.”

I would have said it differently, but I believe essentially the same thing.

 

[carclinic]

That's really the issue. It's a matter of worldview. The people having fits about someone believing in a young earth are essentially saying everyone has to share their worldview.

Yes. Ultimately, the issue is regards one's epistemology. A young earth is not a stretch for a theist any more than an "old earth" is a stretch for a materialist.

 

[Republicanguy]

That is why I don't trust the religious crowd, myths and tricks. Just so typical.