DC Police Chief Responds to Adam Kokesh's Planned Armed March

[WarNoMore]

what stops an agent provocateur from getting into this supposed peaceful march and cause mayhem, which can later be blamed on pro-gun and Liberty groups ?

Unlikely. Who volunteers to provoke an armed crowd with tons of cameras filming the event? Much easier and safer to provoke an unarmed crowd.

 

[JK/SEA]

* But also let not forget what Luke Rudkowski has gone through or at least his version of events involving contacts with so-called—unidentifiable—law enforcement officers during the many political events that he has covered.

yeah...so?

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

what stops an agent provocateur from getting into this supposed peaceful march and cause mayhem, which can later be blamed on pro-gun and Liberty groups ?

There will always be potential for civilians to be blamed for mayhem, unless you disarm all civilians and leave all mayhem to the government. Nothing's to ensure against an agent provocateur; that's the price for denying the government a monopoly on mayhem.

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

I'm shaking my head in amazement at some of the comments. I'm not a huge fan (or a huge critic) of AK. I though his protest over the obscenity law was pretty dumbass, but this I completely understand.

the pigs would shit themselves with overwhelming numbers. people aren't there to kill them, so if they are the ones who are driven away by fear, we win.

When people fear the government, there is tyranny.
When the government fears the people, there is liberty.

then we will need more the 1000 people to show up in virginia if we want to keep peace.

What kind of strength?

It would seem to me, this is a perfect opportunity to demonstrate that strength.

They don't fear Adams march. He can be handled.

with a 1000 people yes.
with a 100000 people, no.
are you purposely trying to push people away from this idea, because you want a low turn-out, thus a violent end?
in your fear, you are creating your own disaster. self-fulfilling prophecy.
the answer, more people.
even if you can't go yourself, get the word out. tell people there will be peace/strength through numbers. save this event by providing numbers.

Adam seems to have punted...
https://www.facebook.com/events/252728144871259/

Adam Kokesh
This is now a call for mass civil disobedience on July 4th anywhere in Washington, DC. Break whatever unconstitutional law you choose. "Law Enforcement" has made it clear they have no respect for the Constitution and so we will shut them down by overwhelming them. I will still be crossing the line on the Memorial Bridge and facing up to 5 years in jail.

~3,000 going
~2,600 maybe
~56,000 invited

Lets look a bit into what Adam is thinking here. The Jefferson Memorial Dance parties. From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Kokesh#Protest_activities

On May 28, 2011, Kokesh and other activists participated in a flash mob-silent dance at the Thomas Jefferson Memorial in Washington, D.C. in protest of a recent ruling against dancing in the monument; the activists were arrested by force.[24] A much larger protest the following Saturday, June 4, 2011, organized by Kokesh and Code Pink, involved about 200 protesters and 75 dancers. About 10 minutes after the dancing began, police began clearing the monument.[25] No arrests were made. When asked by a journalist if he had a permit to protest, Kokesh reportedly produced a copy of the Constitution and said, "Actually I got a permit. It's the same one I swore an oath to when I enlisted in the Marine Corps. And it says something about 'freedom of assembly.' Which means you don't need permission from anybody to come together and speak your mind."[26]

First one - 5 people danced. All were arrested. All were later found innocent.
Second one (a week later) - 75 danced (and there were 200 supporters). Cops stood down, largely. No arrests were made.

Lets do a little thought experiment here... What are they up against?
The DC Police Dept has 3,800 officers.
The Park Police have 760 officers in 3 main areas: DC, SF and NYC. Most are assigned to DC, so lets say 500.

4,000 cops vs 1,000 protesters - WOW! Well, sort of. That day is the busiest in DC. These cops have to watch over millions of visitors coming for the forth - the parade, the fireworks... The USPP #'s include motor pool unit, secretaries, communications unit, maritime unit, aviation unit, traffic safety unit, etc. Worse, they are doing a 20% furlough in staffing due to the sequester cuts. According to: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...urloughs-begin-as-agency-steps-up-visibility/

"the agency may not have the funds to make work mandatory — all hands on deck – during times of crisis." They are also responsible for 41 parks in DC.

We can safely assume that the DC Police also have support personnel issues just like USPP does and in both cases, these officers have to cover 3 shifts.

I'm guessing they will be able to muster 400 to 500 officers to counter this protest. The others and then some will be needed elsewhere.

Where else might they get help?
DC NG is pretty useless as to type of unit, with the exception of a MP unit. There is also a MP unit at Ft Meade. What?, 50-100 soldiers each?
FBI HRT has 90 members.
We are still under 1,000, to repel 1,000+

At a certain point, just as with the Jefferson Memorial Dances, the government stands down.

I suppose they could call in military troops and armor. Make DC look like downtown Baghdad on lockdown on the day we celebrate our freedom. What a PR DISASTER for the government!

Now what Adam has done is both brilliant and really, really scary. The protest just went asymmetric. Where once the cops had a cordon where they could shut down and turn around the protest, now they have the potential of people just showing up all over DC with loaded rifles. That sounds to me like a much higher probability of violence. Though I would LMAO if the evening news that night featured a couple of cop cars getting "American Graffiti'd".



If Capt. Cathy Lanier has an ounce of sense, I think she should throw out an offer like the following:

"Loose the ammo(we will check), keep the rifles, screw the permit, we will give you an escort to and a slot in the 4th of July Parade and carry whatever signs and banners you wish. Bring a float or two, if you wish"

I haven't been to a 4th parade is a while, but I can't remember one where at least one element didn't have unloaded rifles slung on their backs, so why not??? win/win for both sides and diffuses the entire situation.

Protesters win by:
No Permit
Get to carry rifles in DC
Part of the Parade
Get message out to large audience

Gvmt wins by:
Avoiding a potential bloodbath
Avoiding loosing face
Avoiding a PR disaster
Maintaining the peace and public safety

Well, I just gave you all a nice dose of mind candy, so go thunk and dream up some scenarios. Tell us what you think will happen.

-t

 

[LibertyEagle]

Unlikely. Who volunteers to provoke an armed crowd with tons of cameras filming the event? Much easier and safer to provoke an unarmed crowd.

Oh, I don't know about that. If there are thousands of marchers, it would be pretty easy for a plant to fire a bullet into the crowd, or even a blank, without anyone knowing who did it. What impact do you think that would have if the police are there blocking Adam's way? It could easily turn into a bloodbath.

 

[Weston White]

yeah...so?

Goodness me, lots of argumentative people on this forum lately. Well if you are interested you can just search for his videos on www.youtube.com and if you still can't put two-and-two together, then I am afraid my attempting to explain it to you won't do much good.

 

[Professor8000]

Gee, seriously? In most all cases the mere brandishing of a firearm by a stranger is enough to end the threat and establish one control of the situation--causing the wrongdoing to have serious secondary considerations about what is they are doing or are about to do. Only rarely are live rounds required to be expended (unless you work in law enforcement of course—alright, bad joke).

Also not everybody within our little social experiment, feels compelled to “pack-heat”, and such individuals have just as much of a right to feel safe as you have do to feel protected. Your fundamental concerns or “rights” are no more important than are theirs.

As someone who works in Law Enforcement, let me give you a little lesson on the escalation of force in conflict resolution. It is only reliably effective up to the use of physical force. Once non-lethal force is used, the predictability of how someone responds to any escalation of force goes out the window. If a problem can not be solved without violence, it is a dangerous and unpredictable situation. To say that the threat of lethal force can reliably do what negotiation will not is irresponsible and foolish.

I respect people's decisions to not carry firearms for protection as that is a personal decision that each person must make. Self defense is a martial art and a way of life, and not everyone is willing to shoulder that level of personal responsibility. Someone's right to feel safe is non-existent, as is a person's right to feel protected. People have a right to protect themselves, however, they are not entitled to have specific feelings. Fundamental concerns are not in any way the same as rights.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

I see our odds of getting more freedom a 1000 times better peacefully than through a revolution that in my estimation we would lose.

How do you see freedom coming peacefully? And why do you assume that about a "revolution"?

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

Part of me just wishes that Kokesh would go ahead and do this on his own.

Then he could just get arrested himself, and we wouldn't have to worry about something happening that will implode the whole liberty movement.

If "the liberty movement" rejects the right to bear arms, then what good was it anyway.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

im not trying to "pussy out" in this march, but the law is the law and an arrest whether guilty or not would be unbearable for most. ...

And submitting to tyranny is the way to avoid arrest?

 

[Petar]

If a liberty movement rejects the right to bear arms, then what good was it anyway.

Advising a careful approach concerning civil disobedience is not the same as supporting unconstitutional laws.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

Oh for Petes sake...

I'm not telling or asking you to do anything, just wondering how it is that some folks think what Adam has proposed is going to negatively effect you or me or the ideas this forum was founded on?

A massive shootout that results in 60 or 70 million voters electing a massive progressive, anti gun Congress.

You're depending on Congress to support the Second Amendment?

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

Advising a careful approach concerning civil disobedience is not the same as supporting unconstitutional laws.

"A law repugnant to the constitution is void." How is it even civil disobedience to disregard a void law? If the "liberty movement" rejects the lawful bearing of arms, then what good was it anyway. Of course DHS may attack you, even if you obey the law. Towing their line is the epitome of carelessness.

 

[WarNoMore]

Oh, I don't know about that. If there are thousands of marchers, it would be pretty easy for a plant to fire a bullet into the crowd, or even a blank, without anyone knowing who did it. What impact do you think that would have if the police are there blocking Adam's way? It could easily turn into a bloodbath.

Who would do that, though? Normally it's the police who would send the provocateur, but with armed protesters there will be mass bloodshed, among which many police officers are likely to be among the casualties if that tactic is used. I don't think they'd risk it.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

No, what they need is an event to tie patriots to violent extremism.

What do you think Oklahoma City was about?

Oklahoma City hardly turned me against liberty. If you're not a Democrat or Republican, you're already an extremist. As for violence, what's wrong with it in self-defense?

 

[Petar]

"A law repugnant to the constitution is void." How is it even civil disobedience to disregard a void law? If the liberty movement rejects the lawful bearing of arms, then what good was it anyway. Of course DHS may attack you, even if you obey the law. Towing their line is the epitome of carelessness.

1) It's "civil disobedience" because the federal government will at the very least lock you up for doing it.

2) What good is civil disobedience if it seriously risks destroying the whole liberty movement?

3) The DHS is currently preparing to round up patriots and put us all in internment camps one day. If we do something that makes us look like violent extremists then that will give them the public support that they need to do it right away. If we hold our ground peacefully then they may never have the public support that they need to make their move.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

The real force that forces change is the mass of the public.

 

[Petar]

Oklahoma City hardly turned me against liberty. If you're not a Democrat or Republican, you're already an extremist. As for violence, what's wrong with it in self-defense?

Oklahoma City convinced many people in the general public that militias are violent extremist organizations.

If something else happens to convince the general public that patriots are violent extremists, then that may likely give the feds the chance to make their move and put us all in camps.

This is what DHS is already planning on doing as soon as it can.

The last thing that we should be doing is helping them accomplish their goals.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

Oklahoma City convinced many people in the general public that militias are violent extremist organizations.

If something else happens to convince the general public that patriots are violent extremists, then that may likely give the feds the chance to make their move and put us all in camps.

This is what DHS is already planning on doing as soon as it can.

The last thing that we should be doing is helping them accomplish their goals.

If DHS is physically capable of doing that, we have already lost, and they're about to do it regardless of Kokesh. If you don't want to be called a violent extremist, surrender your weapons, and register D or R.

 

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Oklahoma City convinced many people in the general public that militias are violent extremist organizations.

If something else happens to convince the general public that patriots are violent extremists, then that may likely give the feds the chance to make their move and put us all in camps.

This is what DHS is already planning on doing as soon as it can.

The last thing that we should be doing is helping them accomplish their goals.

That's fear-mongering. The only people going to camps are ones actively resisting. The economy would be destroyed with no one working.