Christians and alcohol

[Miss Annie]

Matthew 11:18-19
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Joh 2:1 ¶ And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Joh 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

 

[eduardo89]

My philosophy when it comes to beer is: If it's good enough for the monks, it's good enough for me.

 

[lilymc]

Matthew 11:18-19
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

Joh 2:1 ¶ And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Joh 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

We went over this a couple pages back. I'm going to re-post what I posted to Eduardo.

Some claim that Jesus drank grape juice or must (unfermented wine). But then why accuse him of being a drunkard? Other scriptural passages where oinos is found clearly indicate that, indeed, fermented wine, not grape juice, is being discussed.

The problem is, our modern day concept of "wine" is always fermented wine - (alcohol). But that isn't the case, in terms of how the word was used in the past. Wine basically meant the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented.

So, contrary to what your post implies, Jesus was not admitting to drinking alcohol. He was drinking wine, yes, but unfermented wine.... the healthy, natural kind!

Also, it was his enemies who accused him of being a drunk - the same people (or of the same mindset) who accused him of MANY things, like being of the devil, being immoral, etc, etc. Perhaps they saw him drinking unfermented wine and didn't realize it was not alcoholic. Or maybe they did realize what it was, but still accused him, because they hated him.

The sad thing is, so many people take THEIR word for it, rather than trusting that He was in no way shape or form doing anything unGodly.

Remember, Jesus was perfect, sinless! You might say, "well, there's nothing wrong with drinking wine, it's not a sin." Well, giving His followers the impression that drinking alcohol is not a big deal and something fun is not something a perfect, sinless and wise person would do... they would set an example, set a standard that we as followers of God should be SET APART from the world and the things the world does.

There's a lot more to be said about this, but I'll stop here for now.

 

[eduardo89]

The problem is, our modern day concept of "wine" is always fermented wine - (alcohol). But that isn't the case, in terms of how the word was used in the past. Wine basically meant the juice of the grape, whether fermented or unfermented.

So, contrary to what your post implies, Jesus was not admitting to drinking alcohol.

Throughout the passage, the Greek word translated "wine" is οίνος, which is the Greek word for normal wine, wine that was fermented/alcoholic. The Greek word for the wine Jesus created is also the same word that is used in Ephesians 5:18, "...do not get drunk on wine..." Obviously, getting drunk from drinking wine requires the presence of alcohol and who drinks grape juice at a wedding?!?! Everything, from the context of a wedding feast, to the usage of οίνος in 1st century Greek literature (in the New Testament and outside the New Testament), argues for the wine that Jesus created to be normal, ordinary wine, containing alcohol. There is simply no historical, cultural, exegetical, contextual, or lexical reason to understand it to have been grape juice.

He was drinking wine, yes, but unfermented wine.... the healthy, natural kind!

Are you somehow claiming that fermented wine isn't natural or healthy? Because it is both.

Also, it was his enemies who accused him of being a drunk - the same people (or of the same mindset) who accused him of MANY things, like being of the devil, being immoral, etc, etc. Perhaps they saw him drinking unfermented wine and didn't realize it was not alcoholic. Or maybe they did realize what it was, but still accused him, because they hated him.

The sad thing is, so many people take THEIR word for it, rather than trusting that He was in no way shape or form doing anything unGodly.

They accused Him of being a drunkard and He never refuted it by saying He was drinking a non-intoxicating beverage. There is nothing at all in the Bible to suggest it was grape juice and not wine. Jesus never admonished people for drinking wine, He never said alcohol is immoral, He never told people to drink grape juice instead of wine.

Remember, Jesus was perfect, sinless! You might say, "well, there's nothing wrong with drinking wine, it's not a sin." Well, giving His followers the impression that drinking alcohol is not a big deal and something fun is not something a perfect, sinless and wise person would do... they would set an example, set a standard that we as followers of God should be SET APART from the world and the things the world does.

There's a lot more to be said about this, but I'll stop here for now.

This is not a valid argument. Was Jesus promoting gluttony when He multiplied the fishes and loaves far beyond what the people needed? Of course not. Creating a substance that can be abused does not make one responsible when another person foolishly chooses to abuse it. Jesus creating alcoholic wine was in no sense encouraging drunkenness.

For 2000 years the Church has never interpreted any of the passages dealing with wine to mean grape juice! Not to mention the logically fact that grape juice will naturally ferment into an alcoholic beverage after a few days and the fact that 2000 years ago refrigeration did not exist!!!!

 

[oyarde]

My philosophy when it comes to beer is: If it's good enough for the monks, it's good enough for me.

I still have that glass.

 

[lilymc]

Since Jesus IS the Word, he obviously would know these verses:

It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink - Proverbs 31:4

Jesus was the King of kings, ruler of rulers. Above reproach!


Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink— you pour out your wrath and make them drunk, in order to gaze at their nakedness! - Habakkuk 2:15

Giving people who had already been drinking alcohol MORE alcohol is akin to getting your neighbors drunk. You really think Jesus would go against that principle?


It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. - Romans 14:21

Again, if Jesus is giving alcohol to people who have already been drinking, he would be causing at least SOME people to stumble, since for some people it doesn't take much alcohol to get drunk. Would Jesus ever go against His own word? Remember, he is sinless and perfect!


So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. - 1 Thessalonians 5:6

This is not the only scripture that emphasizes the importance of being sober-minded. Even if Jesus just drank one or two glasses of alcoholic wine, He would basically be putting a stamp of approval on something that the bible warns about in other passages, that it goes against the principle of being sober-minded. Does God contradict Himself?


Who has woe? Who has sorrow? Who has strife? Who has complaining? Who has wounds without cause? Who has redness of eyes? Those who tarry long over wine; those who go to try mixed wine. Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. - Proverbs 23:29-32

Above is an example of a warning against drinking wine. It doesn't say "don't get drunk" it warns against even trying wine. These kinds of things are even more relevant and important for leaders, because leaders are an example.... especially Jesus. Would Jesus contradict His word by doing something the bible states in a number of places is unwise?


Now the overseer is to be above reproach, 1 Timothy 3:2


Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless - Titus 1:7


Do not drink wine or strong drink, neither you nor your sons with you, when you come into the tent of meeting, so that you will not die—it is a perpetual statute throughout your generations— 10 and so as to make a distinction between the holy and the profane, and between the unclean and the clean, 11 and so as to teach the sons of Israel all the statutes which the Lord has spoken to them through Moses.” - Leviticus 10:9-11


If priests are commanded not to drink, and Jesus is the Highest Priest, what does that tell you? Think about it.


Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise. - Proverbs 20:1


Promiscuity, wine, and new wine take away one’s understanding. -Hosea 4:11


Again, warnings against drinking alcohol in general.


You will have your fill of shame instead of glory.
Drink, yourself, and show your uncircumcision!
The cup in the Lord's right hand
will come around to you,
and utter shame will come upon your glory! -Habakkuk 2:16


Don't you think God knows this? Of course He does, so why would he even implicitly condone it?



For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. - 1 Peter 4:3-4

For me, the above scripture is so true and important. Most of us already went through all that stuff before we came to Christ - the worldly stuff - drinking, doing stupid things, thinking like the world thinks. The bible says over and over that we are different than the world, and we no longer do the same things the world does... we shouldn't even WANT to live our lives the way we used to, before we knew God. So do you really think Jesus would put a stamp of approval on something that is typically a pastime of the pagans or the unregenerate man? And by doing so contradict His own word, in numerous places?​

I could post more scriptures, if you want. There are TONS more. I'm getting tired right now. Maybe I'll post more later. Bottom line is, would Jesus really set the example that it's OK to do something that the bible clearly says is unwise, dangerous and not for kings, leaders or priests? Come on now, people. Let's use our noodles.

 

[jmdrake]

Here's one question to ask yourself. Do you see yourself as a peasant or as a prince?

Proverbs 31:4-7 4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

And you can substitute many diversions this world offers for alcohol in the above passage. The New World Order loves us drunk on alcohol, drugs, porn, sports, TV, and anything else to help you forget how wretched we are thanks to them.

 

[Matt Collins]

No He didn't. It was grape juice. At least if He did in Alabama it would have been. He also spoke perfect King James English.

geeze aint that the truth..... I live in Nashville, I assure you, this is a lot more true than most people realize

 

[James Madison]

Yeah. I keep hearing that argument. So why did Jesus ask for the woman at the well for a drink of water again? And David liked water from one well so much that one of his best fighters snuck through enemy lines just to get some. That said, if you want to drink booze go ahead.

If Jesus could turn water into wine, I'm guessing He knew what wells were safe to drink from.

David most likely enjoyed that water because it never gave him dysentery.

 

[Todd]

The thing is, there's a little bit of truth to what those people were saying.

You're right that wine in the ancient world was hardly ever alcohol free. Furthermore, the alcohol was an advantage, not because of its intoxicating power, but, just as you said, as a preservative. Water was often not very sterile. But of course is essential for life. The way wine was generally consumed was in mixtures with water, usually in ratios with far more water than wine. Straight wine was rarely drunk, and a lot of people, not just Christians and Jews looked down on drinking it. What usually was consumed probably had considerably less alcohol in it than what goes for wine today. Not only did beverages with too much alcohol have to potential to intoxicate, but they also would have undermined the main point of drinking, which was to stay hydrated in what was a fairly hot climate.

I don't call drinking alcohol a sin. But the Bible does say a lot of things, especially in Proverbs, that would support abstaining from it. It's a lot like walking past the house of a harlot.

It also says equal in proverbs about gluttony. Proverbs 23. But that doesn't stop many of us Baptists from going back for 3rds at the Church picnic.

Also for about a thousand years the Monks in Europe have been making their means by making and selling beer and wine and drinking it.

 

[erowe1]

Also for about a thousand years the Monks in Europe have been making their means by making and selling beer and wine and drinking it.

Beer, wine, and indulgences. What is that a point in favor of again?

 

[Todd]

My philosophy when it comes to beer is: If it's good enough for the monks, it's good enough for me.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

I can't imagine a an alcohol free wedding in any of the countries I've lived in (Mexico, Germany, Spain, Russia, Colombia), except maybe at some fundamentalist Mormon town in Canada.

But you're completely right in the post above the one I'm quoting in that there is a huge difference between having a few drinks over the course of an evening and getting somewhat buzzed, yet still in control of yourself but at the same time being more relaxed and uninhibited (especially for dancing), and slamming down a dozen shots and losing all self-control and dignity (I'm guilty of that on may occasions).

I think it's also a cultural thing. In Germany on a nice day my friends and I would spend most of the drinking beer and having a great time on the open air terrace of the town pub. We wouldn't get drunk, but we'd definitely feel the effect of the alcohol. I don't find that sinful, and from Biblical evidence, neither would Jesus.

So, Jesus would be okay with people sitting around and getting somewhat buzzed?

I found this to be true of many Catholics over the years. In fact, Oktoberfest is this weekend at a parish near us. They are putting fliers in our mailboxes. Here are free beer tickets, - come on over and have a few.

No thanks! I simply will not drink because it is too tempting to get that buzz and talk myself into believing I'm still in control.

 

[eduardo89]

So, Jesus would be okay with people sitting around and getting somewhat buzzed?

I found this to be true of many Catholics over the years. In fact, Oktoberfest is this weekend at a parish near us. They are putting fliers in our mailboxes. Here are free beer tickets, - come on over and have a few.

No thanks! I simply will not drink because it is too tempting to get that buzz and talk myself into believing I'm still in control.

For people who can't control themselves abstinence is absolutely the way to go, and is actually probably the preferable choice for the vast majority of people. And that doesn't just go for alcohol but many of life's pleasures: chocolate, TV, online forums, gambling, etc. If you can't control yourself and the activity/object becomes your master you need to abstain completely.

For those who can control themselves and enjoy drinking without it becoming their master then I do not see why they should not be able to enjoy it. Drinking is not objectively sinful, just like virtually every other object. It is what you do with it and how you do it that determines whether it becomes sinful.

I can enjoy a few beers without losing control of my mind and actions and can stop myself from crossing the threshold of becoming intoxicated, but that has not always been the case and there have been points in my life in which I have needed to abstain completely. I've learned to control myself when drinking and I generally avoid hard alcohol and just drink beer nowadays since I find it much harder to remain in control with vodka, tequila, etc.

 

[Eagles' Wings]

For people who can't control themselves abstinence is absolutely the way to go, and is actually probably the preferable choice for the vast majority of people. And that doesn't just go for alcohol but many of life's pleasures: chocolate, TV, online forums, gambling, etc. If you can't control yourself and the activity/object becomes your master you need to abstain completely.

For those who can control themselves and enjoy drinking without it becoming their master then I do not see why they should not be able to enjoy it. Drinking is not objectively sinful, just like virtually every other object. It is what you do with it and how you do it that determines whether it becomes sinful.

I can enjoy a few beers without losing control of my mind and actions and can stop myself from crossing the threshold of becoming intoxicated, but that has not always been the case and there have been points in my life in which I have needed to abstain completely. I've learned to control myself when drinking and I generally avoid hard alcohol and just drink beer nowadays since I find it much harder to remain in control with vodka, tequila, etc.

I'm just shaking my head here, eduardo. It seems like a waste of precious time to learn to control oneself when drinking. Our Lord must surely have better things for us to do.

 

[erowe1]

Our Lord must surely have better things for us to do.

I know he does for me. But don't ask me to explain why I'm here all the time.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Here's one question to ask yourself. Do you see yourself as a peasant or as a prince?

Proverbs 31:4-7 4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.

And you can substitute many diversions this world offers for alcohol in the above passage. The New World Order loves us drunk on alcohol, drugs, porn, sports, TV, and anything else to help you forget how wretched we are thanks to them.

OK, if you're saying what I think you're saying, I think you're reading into it. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you.

You seem like you're saying that as Christians, we are princes because we are God's children, and that as such, this verse is saying we should not drink.

I don't think that's the point.

The point is that a King, an actual, worldly King, needs his judgment not to be clouded. It affects a LOT of people, not just himself, if his judgment errs. By contrast, a peasant or a capital criminal has little to lose.

All that said, I don't view this, or much else in Proverbs, as a command so much as practical advise that usually holds true.

 

[Beorn]

I'm just shaking my head here, eduardo. It seems like a waste of precious time to learn to control oneself when drinking. Our Lord must surely have better things for us to do.

I know he does for me. But don't ask me to explain why I'm here all the time.

So from these comments can I deduce you're both celibates that refrain from interacting with the opposite sex?

“Do you suppose that abuses are eliminated by destroying the object which is abused? Men can go wrong with wine and women. Shall we then prohibit and abolish women?” -Martin Luther

Beer, wine, and indulgences. What is that a point in favor of again?

How exactly did Luther describe the entirety of the reformation?

Oh yeah...

“…while I sat still and drank beer with Philiip and Amsdorf, God dealt the papacy a mighty blow.”

 

[PierzStyx]

Wine is a mocker. Strong drink is raging. Anyone who is deceived thereby is not wise. Proverbs 20:1

And for all of the "It's okay as long as you don't get drunk" folks, why drink the foul tasting stuff if you aren't going to get drunk? Seriously, I was recently at a wedding where they had some "non-alcoholic wine" (like .3% alcohol). The stuff tasted awful! In fact, everytime I've tasted straight alcohol it tasted awful. (Glass of gin with a cigarette in it at a family reunion. Beer that a high school buddy traded his lockblade knife with a fisherman on a river out back of the school. Passover wine at a Jewish sader. Etc.) Okay, mixed drinks taste good. But they taste good without the alcohol! I do remember champaign tasting good. A stripper talked me into buying a bottle because the bar would giver her a huge tip. Why she didn't just ask for the $50.00 straight up and let me get some water is beyond me. But it didn't taste any better than Welch's Sparkling Grape Juice.

Anyhow, I don't see wine as any more or less sinful than weed. (And no I don't smoke weed either). It's funny that I was listening to a Christian radio station where the host said "All things in moderation....well....no, not if you're living in Colorado."

I've never understood these arguments either. Paul tells us our body is a temple of God because the presence of the Spirit can literally be within us. We know today that alcohol is destructive not just to the body, but to the mind as well. How many people who drink never get drunk? I'm willing to bet the answer is zero. Alcohol steals your will to act and be, your ability to choose good from evil and makes you an easy target for anyone looking to abuse you in your spiritually weakened state, especially the Adversary. That they drank watered down wine in the scriptures is pointless. We don't live 2,000 years ago when you had to add alcohol to water to make it drinkable. We live today, when there are plenty of healthy, delicious alternatives to alcohol of any form. Today we can use alcohol for many other good purpose, such as cleansing wounds and sanitizing instruments. We don't need to drink it, especially when all the negatives out weight the positives. Lets start living at the next level of Christian discipleship.

 

[PierzStyx]

I'm just shaking my head here, eduardo. It seems like a waste of precious time to learn to control oneself when drinking. Our Lord must surely have better things for us to do.

This makes no sense. Part of the purpose for our existence on Earth is to learn self-control, to learn how to reject evil and choose good and to refuse temptation. I have enough problems doing that when sober, why on Earth would I choose to cripple my ability even further by drinking alcohol? Its stupid. But then again humanity has often found ways to justify its foolishness especially by mixing teh words of scripture with the philosophies of men.