Can you be pro-choice and a libertarian?

I lean towards being pro-choice, but I don't think it should be the defining issue for libertarians. I posted my pro-choice view in a thread here recently and was told by one guy that if you are pro-choice you don't understand life and therefore cannot be a libertarian. Is that the prevailing opinion around here? That makes no sense to me because 99.99% of the topics that are normally discussed are involving adults where we all agree what defines life. For example if we're talking about minimum wage there aren't any fetuses involved. We all agree that adults are alive and have the full set of rights. So I was wondering if that guy was an aberration or the normal in these forums.

It is a non-issue for me. I am firmly pro-choice, not because I "like" abortion or think it no big deal - very much the opposite, I find it a horror and a rather big deal - but because either one is free or is not. It is clear to me that a woman holds the property right to choose the same way I do on my house.

If I spy a man about to set my empty home ablaze, I still hold the right to shoot the life from his carcass because he is threatening my chosen circumstance, as much my property as anything else I possess. One need not be a direct and immediate threat to my life to justify my use of deadly force against their acts or those immediately pending. A woman's circumstance is also her property and she holds the right to protect it from threats as she perceives them. This is one of the potentially ugly sides of the freedom coin that so many people reject for their ugliness alone and not for any logically valid reason.

Horror is part and parcel with freedom. If you do not accept the horror aspect, you do not accept freedom, but rather are a proponent of pretty slavery, thereby revealing that your position is perforce arbitrary and in which case means you have no standing above so much as even the lowest progressive scum who seeks to impose his vision of pretty slavery upon you. At that point, all principle and reason have winged away into the aether and the two of your are engaged in a contest wherein the decision is rendered by he who is the better pugilist... or perhaps whether it is Tuesday... or the price of wheat futures, or even the state of Bammy's hemorrhoids.

The case against choice is emotionally compelling with enormous force, and yet it is still wrong. Even Ron Paul is mistaken on this, well crafted as his argument is in formal terms.

It is not my goal here to convince anyone of my position, but only to state it. Each man must decide for himself whether he is for real freedom or for something else.

As for "understanding" life, IMO anyone claiming to is a bald-faced liar or deluded in terrible measure. Living life does not imply understanding.
 
This is a very "hot button" issue with people having strong opinions on both sides but if one is Libertarian because they believe people should be able to make their own decisions without any government interference then I think yes, a true libertarian may disagree with a decision a person makes on the issue, but must support the right of the individual to make it. A total ban on abortion is imposing ones own views on others which is not truely libertarian in my opinion.

Holy shit... Zippy, you have managed to surprise me in the most unexpected way.

This was very well stated - concise, yet elegant. Repworthy.
 
So as long as you murder behind closed doors, it's fine.

Oh dear...

"Human" does not imply "human being". A severed finger is human, but it is not a human being. What defines/constitutes a human being vis-à-vis that which is merely human? It is likely that nobody knows with certainty. That means it remains an open question, which further demonstrates that no matter what position you adopt regarding "abortion", you are doing so presumptively and we now see that your presumption is perforce arbitrary and uncertain to any supportable degree as a universal truth.

It is intuitively clear to me that a fertilized egg, while human, is NOT a human being. It is equally clear to me that a 30 week fetus is. But I could be wrong on either or both of those "clear" understandings - and so could you and anyone else.

Therefore, the best policy is that of liberty where women are granted their EQUAL RIGHT to their beliefs, however erroneous you may find them, and to act in accord. It may be pretty fucked up in your mind and in mine for any of a number of reasons, but that's the way of liberty. Sometimes liberty fucking sucks. If you think liberty is always pretty in its result, you do not understand it. For example, if a woman is threatened with gang rape and kills the 14 men so threatening her, are we to call that pretty? Blood and gore are never that to my eyes, and yet I would defend that woman's right to the bitter end to kill that many and ten millions more if that is what she needed to do to protect the sanctity of life and limb.

We cut tumors from our bodies all the time - nobody raises an eyebrow. Tumor is human, but not a human being. We don't know when a fertilized egg becomes a human being. The anti-choice people choose to err on the side of maximal caution (not maximum, which I will not discuss here unless someone wants the explanation) by assuming the fertilized egg is a human being. If that is their choice of belief, I respect it even though I may disagree. Others believe differently and are as entitled as anyone else to those beliefs and to act upon them precisely because the truth has yet to be demonstrated in irrefutable terms. Note that "violently emotionally compelling" does not equate with "irrefutable". There were many things in eras past that were so very painfully obvious to "everyone"; things which in the intervening time have been proven beyond reproach to have been dead-wrong. The world, as it turned out, was in fact NOT flat. Burning witches did not, in the end, improve the state of the world. The list continues a rather long way yet to go, so I will stop here as I believe the point is made sufficiently.

I completely respect the "pro-life" position, save their advocacy for the application of force against women who would terminate their pregnancies. That advocacy speaks in diametric opposition to proper human freedom. To be so convinced of one's absolute knowledge in the context of one's clear and present ignorance on a given point is perhaps the most dangerous act of all. Belief <> fact beyond the fact that it is one's belief. I well understand the pro-life position and upon the day when that which makes us a human being vis-à-vis merely human is established beyond refute and it is similarly established without blemish that those qualities inher to a fertilized and completely undifferentiated egg, I will be the first to trumpet the pro-life clarion call. I am serious about this. Demonstrate to me these two basic propositions such that I am convinced and I will advocate for such force right alongside the rest.

Until then, I must maintain my very uneasy skepticism - and trust me when I tell you that it is very much so - in defense of my best take on retaining proper respect for the rights of others even when their choices disgust and/or horrify me. I understand your horror completely and though I agree with you, I cannot make that jump in the absence of sufficient proof. This instance of the ugly side of liberty I feel compelled to accept as a matter of sacred principle, and believe you me I do at times hate it.

Not quite off-topic: for later term terminations (talk about horror), given what I suppose here to be the epistemological problem at hand, would it be a rational and well reasoned compromise to eliminate the D&C for most procedures and replace it with induced labor such that the fetus is expelled "naturally" (I know... trying to be conversationally practical) and if it can survive, we decide we had a human being on our hands? I know it's a pretty shitty middle-road, but is it not still better than slice and dice, where the little guys have zero chance of life? Any prospective mother electing to do this upfront quitclaims her right to the result regardless whether it lives and those receiving are entitled to take whatever heroic measures they deem fitting pursuant to saving the life in question.

Jesus... what a horrible topic this is. It makes me ill just thinking of it... so while I support you women's right to choose, fuck you anyway.
 
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A 12 year old is a human being, so the person has the same rights as a 50 year old? such as the right to consent to sex?

You are here confusing the single most fundamental right - that of one's claim to life itself - with prerogatives that range from fundamental to not so much so. The choice to drink alcoholic beverages in some sense is not "as basic" as one's claim to life.

But your point is well taken in any event. Does a 12 year old hold the right to go hunting with a rifle? I would say yes, but he is also to be held to the same standard of responsibility as anyone else, regardless of his age. If you can belly up to the bar and order the drink, in so drinking you assume the same responsibilities as the rest to bring no harm to others.
 
It is a non-issue for me. I am firmly pro-choice, not because I "like" abortion or think it no big deal - very much the opposite, I find it a horror and a rather big deal - but because either one is free or is not. It is clear to me that a woman holds the property right to choose the same way I do on my house.

If I spy a man about to set my empty home ablaze, I still hold the right to shoot the life from his carcass because he is threatening my chosen circumstance, as much my property as anything else I possess. One need not be a direct and immediate threat to my life to justify my use of deadly force against their acts or those immediately pending. A woman's circumstance is also her property and she holds the right to protect it from threats as she perceives them. This is one of the potentially ugly sides of the freedom coin that so many people reject for their ugliness alone and not for any logically valid reason.

Horror is part and parcel with freedom. If you do not accept the horror aspect, you do not accept freedom, but rather are a proponent of pretty slavery, thereby revealing that your position is perforce arbitrary and in which case means you have no standing above so much as even the lowest progressive scum who seeks to impose his vision of pretty slavery upon you. At that point, all principle and reason have winged away into the aether and the two of your are engaged in a contest wherein the decision is rendered by he who is the better pugilist... or perhaps whether it is Tuesday... or the price of wheat futures, or even the state of Bammy's hemorrhoids.

The case against choice is emotionally compelling with enormous force, and yet it is still wrong. Even Ron Paul is mistaken on this, well crafted as his argument is in formal terms.

It is not my goal here to convince anyone of my position, but only to state it. Each man must decide for himself whether he is for real freedom or for something else.

As for "understanding" life, IMO anyone claiming to is a bald-faced liar or deluded in terrible measure. Living life does not imply understanding.

I completely fail to see the relevance of your metaphor, it bears no resemblance to getting pregnant. A better example would be that you saw a man about to set your house ablaze, but since you fireproofed it and you trusted the fireproofing you decided to let him try because it would be fun. And when your house burned anyway you shot your kid.
 
Who does?

This is only a question because the thickist imposters made it one. "thin" (real) libertarianism is mindblowingly simple. It is immoral and should be illegal to use aggressive force against other people or their property. Period. MIND-BLOWINGLY simple. Now, obviously there are gray areas where it does get complex, and that's what libertarian theorists are for, but the definition is extremely simple. I don't care about getting into the "libertarian club" if it means something other than that. But I will never deviate from that, because to do so would be to knowingly endorse coercion, and that I will not do.
 
You are here confusing the single most fundamental right

Some rights are more fundamental than others? Says who?

- that of one's claim to life itself - with prerogatives that range from fundamental to not so much so. The choice to drink alcoholic beverages in some sense is not "as basic" as one's claim to life.

So who gets to decide which rights are more basic than others?

But your point is well taken in any event. Does a 12 year old hold the right to go hunting with a rifle? I would say yes, but he is also to be held to the same standard of responsibility as anyone else, regardless of his age.

So you want to abolish juvenile hall and charge all minors the same was as adults? Let's start by putting them in the same prisons as adults too.

If you can belly up to the bar and order the drink, in so drinking you assume the same responsibilities as the rest to bring no harm to others.

No, I don't, why should I?
 
If you don't think the baby has a right to stay in the womb, don't put one there..
See how easy that is?

because rapes never happen. Because accidents never happen. because whether raped or accident, you must always pay for it for life.
 
because rapes never happen. Because accidents never happen. because whether raped or accident, you must always pay for it for life.
Says who? There's this thing called adoption, you know. It's readily available and there are loads of couples who want to adopt for a number of reasons. Even if this weren't so, inconvenience isn't a good excuse for killing a child.
 
Says who? There's this thing called adoption, you know.

I see, so every parent who can't feed their children COULD solve their problem if they were willing to let go, they just can't?

There's no orphans left in this country because adopters exceed orphans?

It's readily available and there are loads of couples who want to adopt for a number of reasons. Even if this weren't so, inconvenience isn't a good excuse for killing a child.

What IS then?
 
because rapes never happen. Because accidents never happen. because whether raped or accident, you must always pay for it for life.

Even though I have obvious reasons for being grateful to those who chose not to abort after rape I would never consider doing so a crime and will gladly concede that exception for two reasons.

One, the mother had no choice in the matter and is a victim of a violent crime. The responsibility lies completely on the rapist.

Two, it is a very small amount of pregnancies.

As far as "accidents" go, you entered into the act know full well they occur. Don't expect someone else to pay with their life for your "accident".
 
According to pro choice people, inviting someone onto your boat and deciding to make them walk the plank 100 miles out to sea is Libertarian.
 
Even though I have obvious reasons for being grateful to those who chose not to abort after rape I would never consider doing so a crime and will gladly concede that exception for two reasons.

One, the mother had no choice in the matter and is a victim of a violent crime. The responsibility lies completely on the rapist.

Two, it is a very small amount of pregnancies.

Origanalist, are you arguing from a morality basis or aren't you? It sure sounded like you were, until this post. You were taking a strong moral stand. You were condemning evil and aggressive acts as evil and unacceptable and obviously worthy of being forbidden.

Now, all of that is very much in question in my mind. You've thrown it all into an uproar.

Your position, as I understood it, was: it's wrong to murder your kid. That is, it's just wrong to kill your kid (unless, I suppose, it's in self-defense -- just the same as with any other individual). More importantly from the political perspective: it's just aggression, and thus a worthy target of prescriptive force. Humans may justly use force against each other to forcible prevent each other from murdering their kids, because murdering kids is aggressive. This is a simple position, it makes sense, and it's internally consistent.

Now, you're saying: "Well, except for....." No, there is no "except for." How has the moral position of the kid vis a vis the murdering parent changed? Did the kid commit some new aggression that we must now take into consideration in the scenario that the woman was raped? No, as far as I can see his moral position is identical. He is a very small potential human being, doing the exact same things as the very small potential human being who came about after not-a-rape (that is: growing, sleeping a lot, making fists). Does he somehow have no rights? This is totally unjust. If fetuses have rights, they have rights. It makes no sense whatsoever to pick and choose certain fetuses and say that they have no rights. The basis upon which you claim that they have rights is their humanity or potential humanity, correct? Don't kill humans. That's pretty simple. That I can understand. But guess what: the baby that comes about from a rape is just as human as all the other babies.

So now that you're saying: "Well, it's OK to kill some humans, just as long as it is a very small amount," I'm sorry but you've lost me.
 
Talk about non sequitur. Are you missing it or are you really that disingenuous?

Osan, considering the moral position of young babies already born is highly relevant, because philosophically they are almost surely in the same moral position as the fetus.

Both are completely dependent on the property and time of others to survive.

Both are not fully human, in the sense that they do not yet have the key attributes -- cognition and choice -- that we identify as human.

Both will die in short order if their support is cut off by the other(s) upon which they rely.

If you would like to contradict this and propose instead that they are somehow philosophically in a very different moral position, then by all means: bring on your strong reasons!
 
According to pro choice people, inviting someone onto your boat and deciding to make them walk the plank 100 miles out to sea is Libertarian.

I'm surprised it's even a debate, how is that not libertarian?
 
That makes no sense to me because 99.99% of the topics that are normally discussed are involving adults where we all agree what defines life. For example if we're talking about minimum wage there aren't any fetuses involved. We all agree that adults are alive and have the full set of rights. So I was wondering if that guy was an aberration or the normal in these forums.

Why can't we all agree that a baby is alive? What makes a baby less of a human being than an adult? Shoot, if you go by your definition of "a life" which is an adult, it should be legal to kill anyone under the age of 18.
 
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