'Black Lives Matter' Organizer Outed as White?

[PRB]

Not sure.
Unless you are arguing in favor of racial superiority.

Nope

I simply reject the concept of different races of humans. In Totality.

I saw this as nothing more than another in a series of race baiting threads..

if there's no difference among populations, then Obama is equally Japanese as anybody in Japan and anybody in Japan is equally black as Shaun King and Obama. Shaun King is equally black as Obama, am I right?

 

[erowe1]

I've explained this to you before, but you don't seem to get it. We could define people with widow's peaks as a race, but it would completely lack predictive and explanatory value, so it's a lousy scientific model. Race has both predictive and explanatory value, so it is a valuable taxanomic category.

I missed this post along the way.

What you say here is what it means to say that races are social constructs, except for when you throw in the phrase "scientific model." The racial categories that we use do not come from any scientific model. Like all the other parts of language, they come from constant negotiation between the members of society through their use of these categories in communication with one another. And like other parts of language, these categories are fluid in their meanings and have changed over time, and even today are defined differently in different societies.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

/yawn

I did NOT want to think that racial differences were real. I grew up in a very racially diverse part of the country, I've always had friends, business acquaintances and even lovers of all races (and still do). That idea disturbed me so much, I refused to even look into it at first. I'm not willing to discard good data to fit my preconceived notions, though, so I looked into it and adopted a better position.

 

[PRB]

To get back to what PRB was talking about above, it is simply not possible to perform some genetic test that can ever show that a person has 0% African ancestry or that the person in the OP is lying.

No, it's possible

Unless you believe all humans are equally black and equally Japanese, do you or do you not?

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

I missed this post along the way.

What you say here is what it means to say that races are social constructs, except for when you throw in the phrase "scientific model." The racial categories that we use do not come from any scientific model. Like all the other parts of language, they come from constant negotiation between the members of society through their use of these categories in communication with one another. And like other parts of language, these categories are fluid in their meanings and have changed over time, and even today are defined differently in different societies.

Race is a taxonomic classification. It is a valid taxonomic classification because of the predictive utility and explanatory power. You can categorize races differently, but for it to have taxonomic validity, a different classification must produce better predictive and explanatory utility.

 

[PRB]

Race is a taxanomic classification. It is a valid taxanomic classification because of the predictive utility and explanatory power. You can categorize races differently, but for it to have taxanomic validity, a different classification must produce better predictive and explanatory utility.

wait for him to say you can't predict skin color because albinos.

 

[erowe1]

if there's no difference among populations, then Obama is equally Japanese as anybody in Japan and anybody in Japan is equally black as Shaun King and Obama. Shaun King is equally black as Obama, am I right?

Japan is a nation-state with official citizenship, like the USA is.

But "black" isn't. In order to be able to say that somebody isn't black, we need to have objective criteria, other than self-identification, that can be used to disqualify them.

 

[pcosmar]

What about people who have different views on this topic ? Are they still completely equal or can we discern some differences about them ?

Many have had different views.. and they welcome to believe anything they wish.

I won't agree with them though.
And traditionally the White supremacists and Storm-front trolls have been less vocal with their bullshit,, or banned.

or they had learned to "hide their crazy" and rack up posts.

 

[erowe1]

wait for him to say you can't predict skin color because albinos.

That's a great point. Black people can be albinos.

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "predict skin color" though. What's an example of a scientist predicting skin color?

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Many have had different views.. and they welcome to believe anything they wish.

I won't agree with them though.
And traditionally the White supremacists and Storm-front trolls have been less vocal with their bullshit,, or banned.

or they had learned to "hide their crazy" and rack up posts.

Guess I'm in the clear, since I've never posted on stormfront and don't believe whites are supreme. My views on race were also held by Murray Rothbard. If he were alive today, he shouldn't be welcome on RPF? Well, I'll be.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

That's a great point. Black people can be albinos.

Oh, ye Gods...

 

[erowe1]

Race is a taxanomic classification. It is a valid taxanomic classification because of the predictive utility and explanatory power. You can categorize races differently, but for it to have taxanomic validity, a different classification must produce better predictive and explanatory utility.

Its degree of validity and utility is a matter of opinion. There's not something objective thing that makes a taxonomic classification valid the way a logical syllogism can be valid.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

It's degree of validity and utility is a matter of opinion. There's not something objective thing that makes a taxonomic classification valid the way a logical syllogism can be valid.

Not really. The predictions it makes are objective. If you know the race of a population, you can make very accurate predictions on its level of wealth, rates of violence and other things. This is across different nations and continents, too.

 

[erowe1]

No, it's possible

Unless you believe all humans are equally black and equally Japanese, do you or do you not?

Your two sentences here don't logically belong together. No, it is not the case that I must believe that all humans are equally black and equally Japanese in order to believe that there do not exist genetic tests that can ever show that a person is 0% African (I'm still not even sure what 0% African even means). I'm not sure why you think your first sentence goes along with your second, but there's no logical connection between those ideas.

If you do believe that there exist such tests, why do you believe that? Can you find any sources that support the idea? The one you provided before never made any such claim.

 

[erowe1]

If you know the race of a population

Stop right there. How would you know the race of a population in the first place in order to predict those other things?

The only way you can know it is by asking the members of that population, or asking other people to classify them in a race. You have to start with that social construction of race in order to use race to predict anything else.

You could also do similar things with a population starting with its religion, rather than its race.

 

[pcosmar]

Nope



if there's no difference among populations, then Obama is equally Japanese as anybody in Japan and anybody in Japan is equally black as Shaun King and Obama. Shaun King is equally black as Obama, am I right?

??
are you right about what,, nonsense??

There is no intrinsic difference.. Every human individual is different. Unique.. even between twins.

Unique.. different.. Equal. Every human life.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Stop right there. How would you know the race of a population in the first place in order to predict those other things?

The only way you can know it is by asking the members of that population, or asking other people to classify them in a race. You have to start with that social construction of race in order to use race to predict anything else.

You are presupposing that race is a social construct to make that argument.

 

[timosman]

Many have had different views.. and they welcome to believe anything they wish.

You do not see the inconsistency ? Let me help:

 

[erowe1]

You are presupposing that race is a social construct to make that argument.

No I'm not. Hence the question mark. Do you have an answer to the question?

Before you can use a population's race to predict anything about them, how do you first tell what it's race is? What objective test do you apply, so that you can use the results of that test to predict those other things?

I am going to bet that if you go back to whatever research you've done, where race is used to predict something else, the way that initial attribute of "race" always gets assigned is simply by asking the people to fill something out and say what race they are. None of these studies correlating race with other things will define race according to skin color, DNA, or phenotype. All of them will define it according to human beings simply applying racial labels to themselves or others.

 

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

No I'm not. Hence the question mark. Do you have an answer to the question?

Before you can use a population's race to predict anything about them, how do you first tell what it's race is? What objective test do you apply, so that you can use the results of that test to predict those other things?

I am going to bet that if you go back to whatever research you've done, where race is used to predict something else, the way that initial attribute of "race" always gets assigned is simply by asking the people to fill something out and say what race they are. None of these studies correlating race with other things will define race according to skin color, DNA, or phenotype. All of them will define it according to human beings simply applying racial labels to themselves or others.

That's true, but self identification works on the aggregate. Individuals may mislabel themselves or simply lie, but self identification works well with big numbers.