Are you for open borders?

Are you for open boarders?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 32.1%
  • No

    Votes: 199 62.6%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 17 5.3%

  • Total voters
    318
I do believe that the American government is immoral in many respects, but not because it has a monopoly on violence.

Monopoly of violence has always been, and always will be, a necessity. George Washington had deserters executed in the Revolutionary War because he had to prove that he had the power of life and death - otherwise, soldiers would have had no incentive to stay in battle. They could choose between possibly living at the end of the battle or assuredly dying if they desert.

Similarly, our government must be able to enforce its laws if there is to be order. Otherwise there is no order, and innumeral externalities occur.

Again, you're talking about practicality, which I disagree with, but it's still irrelevant. You're not speaking morally -- how is a monopoly of violence moral? Why is it okay if I can't do something, but the government can? If I steal from you, it's wrong, if the government does it, it's not wrong.

Government needs the initiation of violence to function. And, the initiation of violence is clearly wrong. (See: my theft example).


Assuming every man is an angel.

Humanity is not even close to angelic. And since men aren't angels, it's not logical to give them centralized power to use violence against others.
 
Again, you're talking about practicality, which I disagree with, but it's still irrelevant. You're not speaking morally -- how is a monopoly of violence moral? Why is it okay if I can't do something, but the government can? If I steal from you, it's wrong, if the government does it, it's not wrong.

Government needs the initiation of violence to function. And, the initiation of violence is clearly wrong. (See: my theft example).

Moral questions are answered by analyzing them logically.

Monopoly of violence is moral because violence will be monopolized by one entity, in the end. It could be the State or it could be a biker gang. Therefore, the entity that monopolizes violence should ideally be one that represents the best interests of the nation.

The government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. So, you have no one to blame but yourself for allowing the government to steal from you.

The government can "steal" and execute people because the government is not a person. It has sovereign mandates that preclude it from being compared to people, in an apples to oranges scenario.

Humanity is not even close to angelic. And since men aren't angels, it's not logical to give them centralized power to use violence against others.

A tyranny of the majority will invariably lead to evil men using violence against others.
 
For all you "open border" nutcases, go to Santa Ana, California - go to their elementary schools. Then you will know what it is to say "invasion". Many schools teach the Atzlan philosphy and "mexican culture" at our taxpayer expense.

Many of you can wax poetic about the open border libertarian philosophy that is very crippling to "that" idealogy - but the fact remains, Illegal immigration to the extent we have in the United States, is extremely detrimental, hazardous and only creates MORE of what we are supposedly against.

So, yeah - trumpet the open borders all the while, leftist voters will they create...

Till then, take a bus ride to Santa Ana - and lets see if you really want a mexiamerica..
 
Illegal immigration to the extent we have in the United States, is extremely detrimental, hazardous and only creates MORE of what we are supposedly against.

This is some inspired writing - very true.

This Republic was never meant to be a "polyglot boarding house for the world."
 
This is some inspired writing - very true.

This Republic was never meant to be a "polyglot boarding house for the world."

http://mises.org/etexts/mises/clash/preface.asp

The great problem here is: why should people always consult their long-run, as contrasted to their short-run, interests? Why is the long-run the "right understanding"? Ludwig von Mises, more than any economist of his day, has brought to the discipline the realization of the great and abiding importance of time preference in human action: the preference of achieving a given satisfaction now rather than later. In short, everyone prefers the shorter to the longer run, some to different degrees than others. How can Mises, as a utilitarian, say that a lower time preference for the present is "better" than a higher? In brief, some moral doctrine beyond utilitarianism is necessary to assert that people should consult their long-run over their short-run interests. This consideration becomes even more important when we consider those cases where government intervention confers great, not "small," gains on the privileged, and where retribution does not arrive for a very long time, so that the "temporary" in the above quote is a long time indeed.

This consideration becomes still more poignant in the noble and surprising essay, "The Freedom to Move as an International Problem," newly translated from a 1935 newspaper in Vienna. It is surprising because it presents a remarkably sharp attack on the immigration barriers erected by the United States and the British Dominions. For Mises trenchantly identifies these barriers as creating a ruling class elite, albeit a large one, in which workers in a particular geographical area with a high standard of living, use the State to keep immigrants from lower-wage areas out, thereby freezing the latter into a permanently lower wage. Mises correctly adds that, contrary to the Marxian myth of the international solidarity of the proletariat, it is the unions in the high living standard countries who have lobbied for the immigration restrictions. Mises is hard-hitting on the privileges conferred by immigration barriers: "The oft-referred-to 'miracle' of the high wages in the United States and Australia may be explained simply by the policy of trying to prevent a new immigration. For decades people have not dared to dis*cuss these things in Europe." Mises concludes his essay with an implicit justification of overcrowded Europe making war upon the restrictive countries: "This is a problem of the right of immigration into the largest and most productive lands.... Without the reestablishment of freedom of migration throughout the world, there can be no lasting peace."

Even here, Mises tries to show that, in the long run, the workers of the privileged countries are worse off from the immigration barriers, but it is clear that the "run" is so long and the intermediary advantages so substantial, that the utilitarian harmony of universal interests here breaks down
.​

http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_4.pdf

Like tariffs and exchange controls, migration barriers of whatever type are egregious violations of laissez-faire capitalism.

The libertarian creed rests upon one central axiom: that no man or group of men may aggress against the person or property of anyone else. This may be called the “nonaggression axiom.” “Aggression” is defined as the initiation of the use or threat of physical violence against the person or property of anyone else. Aggression is therefore synonymous with invasion. If no man may aggress against another, if, in short, everyone has the absolute right to be “free” from aggression, then this at once implies that the libertarian stands foursquare for what are generally known as “civil liberties”: the freedom to speak, publish, assemble, and to engage in . . . “victimless crimes.”

I shall contend that emigration, migration, and immigration all fall under the rubric of “victimless crime.” That is, not a one of these three per se violates the non-aggression axiom. Therefore, at least for the libertarian, no restrictions or prohibitions whatsoever should be placed in the path of these essentially peaceful activities.​

Furthering this point and elucidating on the completely absurdity of immigration restriction advocates, but not migration restriction (Since we know the US is not homogenous):

A moment’s reflection will convince any disinterested party that immigration is not necessarily invasive. Immigration consists of no more than moving to a foreign country. For the purist libertarian, national boundaries are only lines on a map, demarcating one “country” from another; there is no such thing as a legitimate nation-state. According to Rothbard:

[T]here can be no such thing as an “international trade” problem. For nations might then possibly continue ascultural expressions, but not as economically meaningful units. Since there would be neither trade nor other barriers between nations nor currency differences, “international trade” would become a mere appendage to a general study of interspatial trade. It would not matter
whether the trade was within or outside a nation.


Therefore, immigration across national boundaries should be analyzed in an identical manner to that migration which takes place within a country. If it is non-invasive for Jones to change his locale from one place in Misesania to another in that country, then it cannot be invasive for him to move from Rothbardania to Misesania. Alternatively, if migration across international borders is somehow illegitimate, this should apply to the domestic variety as well. As long as the immigrant moves to a piece of private property whose owner is willing to take him in (maybe for a fee), there can be nothing untoward about such a transaction.

This, along with all other capitalist acts between consenting adults, must be considered valid in the libertarian world. Note that there is no freedom of movement of the person per se. This is always subject to the willingness of property owners in the host nation to accept the immigrant onto their land.​

What is the basis of immigration restriction from Mexico if the people of Mexico apparently do not believe in liberty, nor do the people of Oregon, Massachussets, or Washington. Therefore, what is the basis that you can restrict migration from Mexico to Texas, but you cannot restrict migration from Oregon to Texas, if the result is the same? Are you then, not contradictory in nature? If you object to Mexicans moving into Texas or any other territory because they do not have the same value system, then you must also reject Oregonites (?) and Massachussetens (?) migrating to Texas. Why do I not hear any objection to Oregonites moving from Oregon to Texas?
 
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Why should we care what Mises said about borders? They were a globalist involved with the Paneuropean Movement, which laid the foundation for the European Union.
 
What is the basis of immigration restriction from Mexico if the people of Mexico apparently do not believe in liberty, nor do the people of Oregon, Massachussets, or Washington. Therefore, what is the basis that you can restrict migration from Mexico to Texas, but you cannot restrict migration from Oregon to Texas, if the result is the same? Are you then, not contradictory in nature? If you object to Mexicans moving into Texas or any other territory because they do not have the same value system, then you must also reject Oregonites (?) and Massachussetens (?) migrating to Texas. Why do I not hear any objection to Oregonites moving from Oregon to Texas?

Um. Ever heard of a Masshole?

Hell yes some folks have problems with outsiders, and for good reason. Outsiders meaning folks who cannot comprehend how services are paid for, yet resent the lowering of their means due to high taxes. They fuck up their own states, and then move out when they decide it's crushingly unaffordable. Arriving at their new home states, they begin voting for liberals (of course, it's all they know). Next thing you know, "Shit, they've got high taxes here, too. How'd that happen?"

Understand, I've got no problems with die-hard liberals in Massachusetts, as long as they stay within their borders. If they didn't have borders, and Massachusetts's jurisdiction extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific, there'd be riots in the streets of the U.S.A. (though some people would probably celebrate). It's bad enough they go rushing to the Federal Government to exert their silly socialist schemes over the entire country when they cannot afford them on their own.

Now, give me a guy/gal who passionately wishes not to repeat the same downfall
at his/her new home state, and I'll welcome them with open arms. I'll even teach them how to vote for folks who believe in limited government, if necessary, because Lord knows some states need reinforcements.

(NO offense to anyone living in Massachusetts involved in the liberty movement, but you probably know what I mean more than anyone. Try New Hampshire and the FSP)
 
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Um. Ever heard of a Masshole?

Hell yes some folks have problems with outsiders, and for good reason. Outsiders meaning folks who cannot comprehend how services are paid for, yet resent the lowering of their means due to high taxes. They fuck up their own states, and then move out when they decide it's crushingly unaffordable. Arriving at their new home states, they begin voting for liberals (of course, it's all they know). Next thing you know, "Shit, they've got high taxes here, too. How'd that happen?"

Understand, I've got no problems with die-hard liberals in Massachusetts, as long as they stay within their borders. If they didn't have borders, and Massachusetts's jurisdiction extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific, there'd be riots in the streets of the U.S.A. (though some people would probably celebrate). It's bad enough they go rushing to the Federal Government to exert their silly socialist schemes over the entire country when they cannot afford them on their own.

Now, give me a guy/gal who passionately wishes not to repeat the same downfall
at his/her new home state, and I'll welcome them with open arms. I'll even teach them how to vote for folks who believe in limited government, if necessary, because Lord knows some states need reinforcements.

(NO offense to anyone living in Massachusetts involved in the liberty movement, but you probably know what I mean more than anyone. Try New Hampshire and the FSP)

This isn't a problem with outsiders, it's a problem with government taxation and services. Privatize everything, and you won't have this problem.
 
For all you "open border" nutcases, go to Santa Ana, California - go to their elementary schools. Then you will know what it is to say "invasion". Many schools teach the Atzlan philosphy and "mexican culture" at our taxpayer expense.

Many of you can wax poetic about the open border libertarian philosophy that is very crippling to "that" idealogy - but the fact remains, Illegal immigration to the extent we have in the United States, is extremely detrimental, hazardous and only creates MORE of what we are supposedly against.

So, yeah - trumpet the open borders all the while, leftist voters will they create...

Till then, take a bus ride to Santa Ana - and lets see if you really want a mexiamerica..

Is there a welfare state in Santa Ana?
 
Um. Ever heard of a Masshole?

Hell yes some folks have problems with outsiders, and for good reason. Outsiders meaning folks who cannot comprehend how services are paid for, yet resent the lowering of their means due to high taxes. They fuck up their own states, and then move out when they decide it's crushingly unaffordable. Arriving at their new home states, they begin voting for liberals (of course, it's all they know). Next thing you know, "Shit, they've got high taxes here, too. How'd that happen?"

Understand, I've got no problems with die-hard liberals in Massachusetts, as long as they stay within their borders. If they didn't have borders, and Massachusetts's jurisdiction extended from the Atlantic to the Pacific, there'd be riots in the streets of the U.S.A. (though some people would probably celebrate). It's bad enough they go rushing to the Federal Government to exert their silly socialist schemes over the entire country when they cannot afford them on their own.

Now, give me a guy/gal who passionately wishes not to repeat the same downfall
at his/her new home state, and I'll welcome them with open arms. I'll even teach them how to vote for folks who believe in limited government, if necessary, because Lord knows some states need reinforcements.

(NO offense to anyone living in Massachusetts involved in the liberty movement, but you probably know what I mean more than anyone. Try New Hampshire and the FSP)

The point was, no one is advocating to station the Guard on the border to outlaying states, when the influx of "liberals" from the NE and NW do more harm than Mexicans seeking a job here in the US. I also do not hear anyone advocating for quota immigration and policies enacted to arrest and deport excess Massholes, San Franciscans, etc. even though they are some of the most Statist people on the planet.



Therefore, immigration across national boundaries should be analyzed in an identical manner to that migration which takes place within a country. If it is non-invasive for Jones to change his locale from one place in Misesania to another in that country, then it cannot be invasive for him to move from Rothbardania to Misesania. Alternatively, if migration across international borders is somehow illegitimate, this should apply to the domestic variety as well. As long as the immigrant moves to a piece of private property whose owner is willing to take him in (maybe for a fee), there can be nothing untoward about such a transaction.
 
Therefore, immigration across national boundaries should be analyzed in an identical manner to that migration which takes place within a country. If it is non-invasive for Jones to change his locale from one place in Misesania to another in that country, then it cannot be invasive for him to move from Rothbardania to Misesania. Alternatively, if migration across international borders is somehow illegitimate, this should apply to the domestic variety as well. As long as the immigrant moves to a piece of private property whose owner is willing to take him in (maybe for a fee), there can be nothing untoward about such a transaction.

Why?! :confused:

If you're involved in a tragic accident and lose two legs and an arm, the doctors don't say, "well, we should amputate the last good arm, because if we do not, there is hypocrisy."

I can't for the life of me understand why the an-caps, trumpeteers of competition and diversity of ideas (which I find agreement with), seem to expect everyone to be on the same denominator.

Whether you want to admit it or not, separation can sometimes be a good thing. Skin tone has nothing to do with it, as some here seem to take delight in suggesting that it is a matter of race. Separation, in the case I'm referring to, is what helps socialists to keep to their socialist communities, and free people to keep to free communities. Trying to intertwine a limitless number of socialists and free-people for the sake of "freedom" is going to have disastrous consequences for people who are (perhaps relatively) free or on the verge of losing the last of their freedoms (or fighting back against the welfare state). Naturally, people will live where they are most comfortable, yet reserve the right to become uncomfortable and change their residence if need be. However, they should also note that other communities do not often take kindly to being told how their system is inferior in some way, and that it should and must be changed. That is a conclusion for the people of those communities to arrive at for themselves.

In other words, if socialists one day decide to change their own country (or state) into something worthwhile, then 'hallelujah, good for them.' If a few socialists decide they're going to flex their muscles in a free(r) country—to decay into (perhaps further) reliance on a nanny state—then let's not go tipping any odds by stacking their team's bottomless substitution roster, and making any uphill strugges into upmoutain struggles.

It makes no sense to say that since we already have a very influential socialist voting block in this country, we shouldn't be concerned if any more socialists come in [thereby 'amputating the last arm']. We have de-facto mob-rule, unfortunately, and it will not go away by inviting drastically more people whose philosophy is also mob-rule.

And, I can't make Massholes stay out of my state (although, that would be awesome). Short of that, I do my best to make this state appear like the most back-asswards, uncivilized body of people that liberals have ever seen (we even have guns! and like mud-boggin'), so, hopefully, they don't bother to come and bother us. Ultimately, it's a win-win for both sides, as no one has to forfeit his/her only known lifestyle to accomodate the other.

But, I suppose if you really want to invite just any immigrants onto your property, go ahead. Let them also use your ER's, schools, and services. Ultimately, the word will spread of your hospitality, drawing more guests. Of course, it's unlikely that you are capable of offering (or willing to offer) everything they seek, so in the event that they expect more and more until they wear out their welcome, simply ask them to leave, or educate them as to why you should not be forced to accomodate them and that a private market—a prospect which they may have never been exposed to in their home country—will fulfill their demands. If they become unruly, I'm sure the private police force will evict them, provided that you can pay the police enough to non-forcibly or non-immorally remove the hundreds of mob-rulers now helping themselves to your T.V. set and refrigerator.

And then, let us know how that goes for you.
 
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Hell yes some folks have problems with outsiders, and for good reason. Outsiders meaning folks who cannot comprehend how services are paid for, yet resent the lowering of their means due to high taxes. They fuck up their own states, and then move out when they decide it's crushingly unaffordable. Arriving at their new home states, they begin voting for liberals (of course, it's all they know). Next thing you know, "Shit, they've got high taxes here, too. How'd that happen?"

Sounds like all the white a*holes moving to Texas from Failifornia.
 
http://mises.org/etexts/mises/clash/preface.asp

Mises correctly adds that, contrary to the Marxian myth of the international solidarity of the proletariat, it is the unions in the high living standard countries who have lobbied for the immigration restrictions. Mises is hard-hitting on the privileges conferred by immigration barriers: "The oft-referred-to 'miracle' of the high wages in the United States and Australia may be explained simply by the policy of trying to prevent a new immigration. For decades people have not dared to dis*cuss these things in Europe." Mises concludes his essay with an implicit justification of overcrowded Europe making war upon the restrictive countries: "This is a problem of the right of immigration into the largest and most productive lands.... Without the reestablishment of freedom of migration throughout the world, there can be no lasting peace."

Even here, Mises tries to show that, in the long run, the workers of the privileged countries are worse off from the immigration barriers, but it is clear that the "run" is so long and the intermediary advantages so substantial, that the utilitarian harmony of universal interests here breaks down[/I].​

Like many of Marx's beliefs, this first bolded statement by Mises is no longer true. Unions work tirelessly to eliminate immigration restrictions today. So, his theory doesn't apply to our present day issues - there is something else at work here. Wages are being steadily decreased for Americans and Left wing unions are at the forefront of the effort. Ideology is now pushing this agenda onto American workers, and they're left holding the low-wage bag. For what purpose? To worship at the altar of international capitalism?

As for the second statement, it's absurd - I am not a fan of Mises to begin with, but the notion that there has ever or could ever be "lasting peace" is absurd. The perpetual state of man is war, whether he is free or whether he is enslaved. It is incredibly presumptuous to believe that if you eliminated immigration barriers, there will be lasting peace. Certainly, just the opposite has occurred in immigrant towns in America. Now there is war wherever immigrants go in America - MS-13 rides of the coattails of every hispanic immigrant population.

If anything, unrestricted immigration would produce more war - what happens when you increase the diversity of a nation? Ask Robert Putnam and his diversity study:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/

IT HAS BECOME increasingly popular to speak of racial and ethnic diversity as a civic strength. From multicultural festivals to pronouncements from political leaders, the message is the same: our differences make us stronger.

But a massive new study, based on detailed interviews of nearly 30,000 people across America, has concluded just the opposite.

http://mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_4.pdf

Like tariffs and exchange controls, migration barriers of whatever type are egregious violations of laissez-faire capitalism.


We don't serve laissez-faire capitalism - I do not sacrifice a lamb at the altar of laissez-faire capitalism. My goal in life is not to be as in tune with capitalism as possible - is it a good theory generally? Yes.

But it is an ideology like any other.

Now, if you could point out where tariffs and exchange controls are violations of natural law, I'd be all ears.

The libertarian creed rests upon one central axiom: that no man or group of men may aggress against the person or property of anyone else. This may be called the “nonaggression axiom.” “Aggression” is defined as the initiation of the use or threat of physical violence against the person or property of anyone else. Aggression is therefore synonymous with invasion. If no man may aggress against another, if, in short, everyone has the absolute right to be “free” from aggression, then this at once implies that the libertarian stands foursquare for what are generally known as “civil liberties”: the freedom to speak, publish, assemble, and to engage in . . . “victimless crimes.”

This is beginning to sound less like a political belief and more and more like a religious one.

Therefore, immigration across national boundaries should be analyzed in an identical manner to that migration which takes place within a country. If it is non-invasive for Jones to change his locale from one place in Misesania to another in that country, then it cannot be invasive for him to move from Rothbardania to Misesania. Alternatively, if migration across international borders is somehow illegitimate, this should apply to the domestic variety as well. As long as the immigrant moves to a piece of private property whose owner is willing to take him in (maybe for a fee), there can be nothing untoward about such a transaction.

Someone else made a good point about the human body. I'll make my own: if it is not invasive for my hand to scratch my knee, then it is not invasive for another person to scratch my knee, even if I do not want them to. The nation is the body, and the other person only has rights to his own body. He has no rights to someone else's body, unless he is granted those rights.

The American people have overwhelmingly said they do not want more immigration.

Also, landowners are not sovereign. So they cannot give and grant permission to enter a nation. Only the nation is sovereign. Entrance must be determined by sovereign people - not one man; otherwise, you have situations like in illegal immigrant cities: the absence of rule of law.

What is the basis of immigration restriction from Mexico if the people of Mexico apparently do not believe in liberty, nor do the people of Oregon, Massachussets, or Washington. Therefore, what is the basis that you can restrict migration from Mexico to Texas, but you cannot restrict migration from Oregon to Texas, if the result is the same? Are you then, not contradictory in nature? If you object to Mexicans moving into Texas or any other territory because they do not have the same value system, then you must also reject Oregonites (?) and Massachussetens (?) migrating to Texas. Why do I not hear any objection to Oregonites moving from Oregon to Texas?

States are not sovereign nations.

Oregon cannot negotiate a treaty with Canada.​
 
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What is the basis of immigration restriction from Mexico if the people of Mexico apparently do not believe in liberty, nor do the people of Oregon, Massachussets, or Washington. Therefore, what is the basis that you can restrict migration from Mexico to Texas, but you cannot restrict migration from Oregon to Texas, if the result is the same? Are you then, not contradictory in nature? If you object to Mexicans moving into Texas or any other territory because they do not have the same value system, then you must also reject Oregonites (?) and Massachussetens (?) migrating to Texas. Why do I not hear any objection to Oregonites moving from Oregon to Texas?

There is no basis in law to restricted intra-state movement of people (not that I would object to harshly). Federal immigration laws are very powerful and enforcible.

Personally, I am for restricting migration from California to my state. I don't want California's problems but what I want is irrelavent. I don't have a legal leg to stand on.
 
What is the basis of immigration restriction from Mexico if the people of Mexico apparently do not believe in liberty, nor do the people of Oregon, Massachussets, or Washington. Therefore, what is the basis that you can restrict migration from Mexico to Texas, but you cannot restrict migration from Oregon to Texas, if the result is the same? Are you then, not contradictory in nature? If you object to Mexicans moving into Texas or any other territory because they do not have the same value system, then you must also reject Oregonites (?) and Massachussetens (?) migrating to Texas. Why do I not hear any objection to Oregonites moving from Oregon to Texas?

There is no basis in law to restrict intra-state movement of people. I would not object too harshly however if Californian's were restricted from leaving. Tie of the infection of lierty so to speak.

If we could eject California from the union and then move our border I would go with that. Personally, I am for restricting migration from California to my state. I don't want California's problems but what I want is irrelavent. I don't have a legal leg to stand on.

Therefore, we do want we can. And that is force the government to comply with the existing law and remove by force if neccessary anyone who is in the country legally, bring the troops home and put the troops home and put them on the Mexican border to stop the flow of movement. A president could do this very easily. Much easier that "ending the welfare state" which is a loose term for a plan that is simply wishful thinking.
 
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