Are you for open borders?

[randolphfuller]

Why would you be happier if the immigrant entered legally?

 

[revolutionisnow]

Even if you cut off all welfare and made people pay tuition for k - 12 schooling, masses of people would still want to come here. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. A lax border with Canada is not really a problem because we both share the average standard of living, the same with Mexico is because the difference between ours and theirs are so great. Does anyone think people wouldn't leave places like this, even if they did not receive any welfare payments?

 

[Joseph de Maistre]

Even if you cut off all welfare and made people pay tuition for k - 12 schooling, masses of people would still want to come here. I'm not sure why this is so hard for people to grasp. A lax border with Canada is not really a problem because we both share the average standard of living, the same with Mexico is because the difference between ours and theirs are so great. Does anyone think people wouldn't leave places like this, even if they did not receive any welfare payments?

The fact is, they want them to come here.

There is an ulterior social engineering mission at work. Like Obama said, "we are going to fundamentally change this country."

Fundamental change doesn't happen with the same old population - you've got to bus in a whole new electorate. Perhaps an electorate that votes for people like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales.

 

[Dunedain]

The fact is, they want them to come here.

There is an ulterior social engineering mission at work. Like Obama said, "we are going to fundamentally change this country."

Fundamental change doesn't happen with the same old population - you've got to bus in a whole new electorate. Perhaps an electorate that votes for people like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales.

I can't figure out why we would want to import a civilization that can't build a house.

 

[Met Income]

The fact is, they want them to come here.

There is an ulterior social engineering mission at work. Like Obama said, "we are going to fundamentally change this country."

Fundamental change doesn't happen with the same old population - you've got to bus in a whole new electorate. Perhaps an electorate that votes for people like Hugo Chavez or Evo Morales.

Yes, they want to come here. And morally, you have no right to stop them (unless they are on your property). You have no real right to stop them from going on other people's property.

You do have a right to stop them from receiving welfare benefits, because taxation is theft. But again, the welfare state must be stopped entirely because taxation is theft.

 

[Joseph de Maistre]

I can't figure out why we would want to import a civilization that can't build a house.

As Lincoln once said:

A house divided against itself cannot stand if its inhabitants built the house with sticks and mud

It beats me. Okay okay so maybe they don't care for the Liberty movement - fine. But it just seems like they don't care about anything.

Yes, they want to come here. And morally, you have no right to stop them (unless they are on your property). You have no real right to stop them from going on other people's property.

You do have a right to stop them from receiving welfare benefits, because taxation is theft. But again, the welfare state must be stopped entirely because taxation is theft.

If taxation is theft then you don't have to pay your taxes. Of course, I know you pay your taxes because you probably couldn't get on the internet from jail.

So, I'm left to conclude that you are not following your beliefs to their logical end.

In which case, you do not actually believe what you say or you fear the government more than you love truth.

 

[Met Income]

As Lincoln once said:

A house divided against itself cannot stand if its inhabitants built the house with sticks and mud

It beats me. Okay okay so maybe they don't care for the Liberty movement - fine. But it just seems like they don't care about anything.



If taxation is theft then you don't have to pay your taxes. Of course, I know you pay your taxes because you probably couldn't get on the internet from jail.

So, I'm left to conclude that you are not following your beliefs to their logical end.

In which case, you do not actually believe what you say or you fear the government more than you love truth.

Morally, I don't have to pay taxes. What happens if I don't? The monopoly of violence comes after me. Which is entirely immoral. As is using an initiation of violence for any other reason.

The welfare state is immoral, traveling isn't.

 

[revolutionisnow]

Yes, they want to come here. And morally, you have no right to stop them (unless they are on your property). You have no real right to stop them from going on other people's property.

You do have a right to stop them from receiving welfare benefits, because taxation is theft. But again, the welfare state must be stopped entirely because taxation is theft.

I guess "morally" you have no real right to tell someone they can't drive 75mph through residential neighborhoods in their van with a meth lab in the back giving out free samples either, since they are not on your property.

 

[Dunedain]

I guess "morally" you have no real right to tell someone they can't drive 75mph through residential neighborhoods in their van with a meth lab in the back giving out free samples either, since they are not on your property.

lol. That will go over Met Incomes head.

 

[Met Income]

I guess "morally" you have no real right to tell someone they can't drive 75mph through residential neighborhoods in their van with a meth lab in the back giving out free samples either, since they are not on your property.

you can do what you want on your private property. How does this make pointing a gun in someone's face a moral act?

 

[revolutionisnow]

Obviously if they were driving in a residential neighborhood it would be on a public road. So, would the state morally be able to say you can't do that or not?

 

[Met Income]

Obviously if they were driving in a residential neighborhood it would be on a public road. So, would the state morally be able to say you can't do that or not?

The State isn't moral. The mafia boss can lecture me all he wants, but he's still stealing my money using violence.

 

[revolutionisnow]

Why are you avoiding the question, Yes or No.

Or do we need to privatize all the roads and airspace first, and then have the private company check passports if you want to travel on those roads or in that airspace. I wish we could stick to the real world instead of discussing what might happen on Planet Galactica if moral anarchists took over.

 

[Met Income]

Why are you avoiding the question, Yes or No.

Or do we need to privatize all the roads and airspace first, and then have the private company check passports if you want to travel on those roads or in that airspace. I wish we could stick to the real world instead of discussing what might happen on Planet Galactica if moral anarchists took over.

I did answer your question. Is a mafia boss moral when he steals from you?

 

[nobody's_hero]

I did answer your question. Is a mafia boss moral when he steals from you?

In the eyes of the mafia boss perhaps, yes. This is the dilemma of moral relativity that many Anarcho-capitalists apparently do not understand. No one "wins" without having to force their will or beliefs on others. Mafia bosses are not likely to stop because you point out to them their "immorality." Morality-based arguments don't work on them; force is necessary, at least to a degree.

Thank God, however, that this kind of "force" against mafia bosses is generally accepted amongst the people.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

In the eyes of the mafia boss perhaps, yes. This is the dilemma of moral relativity that many Anarcho-capitalists apparently do not understand. No one "wins" without having to force their will or beliefs on others. Mafia bosses are not likely to stop because you point out to them their "immorality." Morality-based arguments don't work on them; force is necessary, at least to a degree.

Thank God, however, that this kind of "force" against mafia bosses is generally accepted amongst the people.

We are not adverse to force. We ascribe to NAP, which clearly calls for the defense against the initiation of force. We denounce all initiation of force and violence, but you will not find more avid defenders of gun-rights anywhere. An-Caps call for the absolute right to own any and all types of weapons unfettered. So, if the Mafia boss tries to steal from me, I will respond in kind force. Likewise, any society that triumphs theft can never, and will never be a workable Voluntaryist society.

Similarly, any society that triumphs theft will be inherently unjust, immoral, and wreckless. Neither a State, nor a voluntary society can change a societies view alone, especially not laws that favor types of behaviors. In fact, in the very essence of the State it personifies theft. This is why we have such an uphill battle. So many people are conditioned to think that theft is necessary, and moreover, is moral only insofar as the institution of the State does it. The State literally is the Mafia. You are literally getting stolen from. What are you going to do to stop it? It seems to me, you are not responding in kind force, are you not? If you did, do you think it would be accepted? Imagine you killing a tax collector. Would people accept this?

Besides, as for myself I ascribe to Kantian Moral Absolutism.

 

[reardenstone]

a) They do work for this country, most of them very hard to live their meager lives. Illegals are not often supported by tax dollars since they are on the black market.

b) They do put back into the system, even more than you and I since they don't recieve as many benefits.

c) Why should they have to learn English? If you don't want to associate with those that don't speak English, don't.

"And I'm all for sending the welfare-using, anything-other-than-english-talking, wont-work immigrants back. I'll pay for their one way ticket back to their country - don't want them here."

Well I don't want to pay for that. Are you alright with robbing me to pay for this and depriving me of my property rights of being able to allow these people on my property and/or hire them?

Not exactly accurate. I am not against an easier immigration system but I am not for open borders because I prefer a sovereign nation to complete anarchy. Anarchy has no fail safe against coercive despotism while the constitution if adhered to will self-balance government.

Leaching from our tax dollars:

Public health
Public schools
Tax sponsored minority programs and special interest groups
They work under the table for cash.
Many buy products from "Latin" stores and specialty groceries which may or may not be accurately sending in sales tax.

They do leach the system. Many have told me and advised me back when I didn't have health insurance to go the emergency room and you won't be turned away. Health care costs rise. Many of the birth righted children also end up going to public schools financed by our tax dollars. Why do the left libertarians not understand this?

How can the contribute more when many don't pay payroll taxes?

I would support the fair tax for this simple reason; it catches everyone who has to buy stuff.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Not exactly accurate. I am not against an easier immigration system but I am not for open borders because I prefer a sovereign nation to complete anarchy. Anarchy has no fail safe against coercive despotism while the constitution if adhered to will self-balance government.

Leaching from our tax dollars:

Public health
Public schools
Tax sponsored minority programs and special interest groups
They work under the table for cash.
Many buy products from "Latin" stores and specialty groceries which may or may not be accurately sending in sales tax.

They do leach the system. Many have told me and advised me back when I didn't have health insurance to go the emergency room and you won't be turned away. Health care costs rise. Many of the birth righted children also end up going to public schools financed by our tax dollars. Why do the left libertarians not understand this?

How can the contribute more when many don't pay payroll taxes?

I would support the fair tax for this simple reason; it catches everyone who has to buy stuff.

We should be learning from them, not condemning them. We need more Agora, not less! Makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Besides this crazy notion that they don't pay any taxes whatsoever, is absurd. It's hard to get around sales tax, property tax, income tax, etc. For those who do get around it, learn from them and do it yourself! We should not be beholden to the tyrannists, just because they create laws that favor them. Have we so soon forgotten Jefferson? The laws most often are not used to protect our liberties, but to steal them and to consolidate the power of the Tyrants. DOWN WITH ALL TAXATION.

 

[JustinTime]

What are separate people? Do they drink from different water fountains?

Oh boy.

Freedom means people have a right to see things differently, and will therefore desire to live under different systems, have different cultures, and different ways of seeing things, etc.

No, immigration is the effect of someplace being attractive to live in. Get rid of the welfare state, and then immigrants (and Americans) won't be able to steal from you through the government. More people immigrate because of these goodies.

If the welfare state went away, clearly people would still immigrate here. Morally, you can't have a problem with that -- since they are doing nothing wrong. They are agreeing to work voluntarily with another entity. There's nothing wrong with that.

Who is going to make the welfare state go away? When? It seems we are heading away from that, and I do believe unassimilated immigrants are a big part of it.

You just keep repeating "Make the welfare state go away", but cant you see the ever growing numbers of people coming here seeking a welfare state make it less and less likely to go away?

Free riding is the problem, not freedom to travel. Worrying about immigration while we still have the welfare state is like being on the Titanic and being angry at a few people who didn't pay for their ticket. We have much bigger problems to worry about.

An analogy here would be if the Titanic decided its course via election, and the "free riders" were slowly tipping the balance to sailing at the iceberg.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Oh boy.

Freedom means people have a right to see things differently, and will therefore desire to live under different systems, have different cultures, and different ways of seeing things, etc.



Who is going to make the welfare state go away? When? It seems we are heading away from that, and I do believe unassimilated immigrants are a big part of it.

You just keep repeating "Make the welfare state go away", but cant you see the ever growing numbers of people coming here seeking a welfare state make it less and less likely to go away?



An analogy here would be if the Titanic decided its course via election, and the "free riders" were slowly tipping the balance to sailing at the iceberg.

We've pretty much past that point anyways. There is now almost a plurality (I'm almost wondering if we've passed 50% now), that are dependant on the Welfare State.

We didn't heed Grover Clevelands warning about paternalism, nor De Tocquevilles. At this point immigration matters little if anything on the abolishment of the Welfare System. Only a collapse of the system itself will end it. Good luck trying to get rid of Medicare, Medicaid, SS, SCHIP, etc.