Are you for open borders?

Are you for open boarders?

  • Yes

    Votes: 102 32.1%
  • No

    Votes: 199 62.6%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 17 5.3%

  • Total voters
    318
There is an illegal immigration crisis plaguing the U.S. today, but the remedy proposed by most closed-border advocates is, unbeknownst to them, the entire cause of the crisis to begin with.

Our Immigration system is cumbersome, unwieldy, expensive, and riddled with quotas and double standards. I know because of a near first-hand experience with this grossly inefficient system.

True story: About six years ago, my dad met a resident-alien South Korean gentleman named Mr. Park, befriended him, and soon grew enamored with the prospect of starting a martial arts school with him. Mr. Park is a 5th degree Grand Master in Tae Kwon Do, with certificates and accolades galore from almost every major Tae Kwon Do academy in the world, including The Kukkiwan in Korea. He's one of only about 50 men in the entire country with his extensive accreditations, so we assumed getting his green card and other papers in order would be a breeze...right?

Well...not exactly.

First, Mr. Park was told he'd need a sponsor. Of course, my dad was more than willing to vouch for his prospective business partner, so this wasn't much of a hurdle. But in the ensuing months, all manner of application fees, processing fees, immigration attorney gratuities, and assorted hoops he had to jump through because of the government's monopoly on Immigration and Naturalization, ended up costing us around twenty-thousand American dollars.

What we were putting out to get Mr. Park's green card was just barely enough to keep our heads above water financially, because, as most entrepreneurs know, the first three years of a new business are usually the most trying and least profitable. All of these exorbitant fees for immigration bureaucrats ended up bankrupting our school. It folded after two years, meaning that all we paid in to the process ended up being for naught anyway. Mr. Park is living in another state now, my dad hasn't been able to get back on his feet since, and we ended up losing far more money from our venture than we took in from tuition during the school's brief history.

The Immigration bureaucracy stifles entrepreneurship, harms the economy, stagnates the creation of wealth, and hurts far more people than it has ever helped! It's time to realize that our country's immigration problem is caused not by ruthless scofflaws who get their jollies from spitting on our national heritage. It is caused by a corrupt and ineffectual governmental behemoth that exacts brutal and exploitative fees on human beings (many of whom have families, hopes, and dreams just like us) and preys on the desperation of Third-World refuse frantic to escape the Hell of plutocratic dictatorships or pestilential war-zones.

Just like outlawing guns insures that only outlaws will possess them, placing excessive strictures on the flow of the destitute into a rich and free nation insures that those among them who do harbor criminal intent will be over-represented in the numbers of such people who do finally get here illegally. That is why we've seen such an explosion of Latino gangland violence on our streets. The Latino population in the United States is over-represented by those whose regard for the law was not sufficient to bar their illegal entry into this country.
 
There is an illegal immigration crisis plaguing the U.S. today, but the remedy proposed by most closed-border advocates is, unbeknownst to them, the entire cause of the crisis to begin with.
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Just like outlawing guns insures that only outlaws will possess them, placing excessive strictures on the flow of the destitute into a rich and free nation insures that those among them who do harbor criminal intent will be over-represented in the numbers of such people who do finally get here illegally. That is why we've seen such an explosion of Latino gangland violence on our streets. The Latino population in the United States is over-represented by those whose regard for the law was not sufficient to bar their illegal entry into this country.

Good point, I have contemplated the misrepresentation issue before but never heard it mentioned.

Also, like prohibition, it creates an underground immigration market.

The labor market speaks. Let's listen. The market is self regulating and will work fine without the government intervention(and won't allow "trillions" of people to come).
 
I just want the welfare state gone. Then those who want to come here to make a better life for themselves can, and those who want to leech a better life for themselves won't even bother.
 
Not only must the welfare state evaporate to make open borders feasible, so must the authoritarian state in general. Our present practice involves incarcerating/deploying ever more Americans, to be replaced in the economy with ever more undocumented illegals. Imagine what our unemployment rate would look like if you added in all of the overseas military and private pseudo-military along with all of the 50% or so non-violent incarcerated.

Nixon was very much right up front with the goals of his drug/crime war with his close circle of advisors:
"[President Nixon] emphasized that you have to face the fact that the whole problem is really the blacks. The key is to devise a system that recognizes this while not appearing to." H.R. Haldeman's diaries.

Reagan continued that legacy and really opened the borders and granted amnesty to replace Americans in the workplace. That amnesty opened the floodgates to the much larger wave of illegals to follow.

But with all of that said, getting all paranoid about border security beyond reasonable patrols is ineffective. Directing rancor toward the illegal him/herself is futile and poorly spent. The secure fences must be built in every employment situation, and the rancor and harsh penalties must be applied to the American citizen-employer in noncompliance- essentially the player in the equation that actually has a lot to lose by getting caught in non-compliance. Dry up the opportunity completely and you've effectively closed the floodgates.

Furthermore you've created the necessary environment for the streamlining of increased legal immigration.
 
Free trade and travel. Imagine being free to go to any stretch of land without a statist passport :D

A stupid fantasy not grounded in reality.

Compartmentalization is good. This is evident in the fact that life itself is based on cells. Cells have membranes (borders) and they control and manage the flow of material across those intercellular borders. This organizational model has stood the test of time.

Your utopian fantasy of a borderless world has not.
 
A stupid fantasy not grounded in reality.

Compartmentalization is good. This is evident in the fact that life itself is based on cells. Cells have membranes (borders) and they control and manage the flow of material across those intercellular borders. This organizational model has stood the test of time.

Your utopian fantasy of a borderless world has not.

What in the living hell are you talking about? Well, I don't believe in nations, so what does that amount to? What type of government do these cells have? Answer me that :D
 
Internationalism is worldwide socialism. Period. The greatest obstacle to Internationalism is a strong and fiscally sound USA that is not deeply in debt and pays the bills in a timely fashion. This movement is either about America or it's about Internationalism. You decide. I think it's pretty clear where Dr. Paul weighs in and I'm inclined to agree.
 
Internationalism is worldwide socialism. Period. The greatest obstacle to Internationalism is a strong and fiscally sound USA that is not deeply in debt and pays the bills in a timely fashion. This movement is either about America or it's about Internationalism. You decide. I think it's pretty clear where Dr. Paul weighs in and I'm inclined to agree.

Internationalism with GOVERNMENT is worldwide socialism. Correction
 
What in the living hell are you talking about? Well, I don't believe in nations, so what does that amount to? What type of government do these cells have? Answer me that :D

I'm talking about the real world not complying with your utopian ideas of social organization.

Cells don't have nations, and yet the pressure of evolution has reinforced the value of those cells setting up borders between each other, and managing the intercellular movement of material. Compartmentalization is good. Borders help to contain negative crap. Whether it be a virus, or a WMD, or a psychotic mass murderer.

Look at the negative crap we get from globalization and increased global trade right now. Wierd diseases ooze out of third world shitholes and end up in American cities. Tainted products made in China end up on shelves all over the world. Invasive species from foreign lands decimate what were once isolated and balanced ecosystems. Tearing down borders will just make that crap worse, and increase the global homogenization.

Basically, your fantasy ideal of human freedom is incompatible with the real world. There will always be borders, and you will always have to submit to scrutiny when crossing those borders, and in some cases, you may be denied the freedom to cross that border. That's just how it is.
 
Corporate rulership lacking constitutional protection is government of the worst sort. All of us will presumably be very minor shareholders in that collective- non-voting shareholders mind you. You can keep your utopian visions, I'll work for a strong and sound America with limited gov't, thank you. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. I believe the CFR may have job openings for helping deliver that Internationalist message, though.
 
If we abolished most forms of welfare, then we could have open borders. But illegal immigrants form a part of this nation that is very important.
 
I think Manchester economics requires absolute freedom of movement of labor, goods, and capital. Manchester doctrine also insists that any effort to interfere with these freedoms will definitely make necessary a further restric tion of freedom until they have all been abrogated. This is not a simple problem. Milton Friedman, whose libertarian credentials are not in question has said that the welfare state makes free movement of people "very difficult".The objective must be kept in mind always, but realizing circumstances may create a situation that is actually less free.
 
I'm for open borders once the gates of the welfare state are closed.

Where do you live?

Seeing as his avatar is the FSP logo my guess is that mport1 lives in New Hampshire within that sheltered corner of America called New England. Its cold climate and far proximity to Mexico make it difficult for the illegal immigrant to re-locate much less make use of any social welfare programs. Hmmm...you guys should probably add another reason to the 101 reasons to move to New Hampshire. I can guarantee you that if NH was a border state to Mexico - its viability of being a haven for libertarianism would be non-existent.

Whats ironic, is that mport1 thinks illegal immigration is a boon to the economy yet I'm actually considering moving to New Hampshire from sunny southern California due in large part to the damage wrought by illegal immigration.
 
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I'm for open borders once the gates of the welfare state are closed.



Seeing as his avatar is the FSP logo my guess is that mport1 lives in New Hampshire within that sheltered corner of America called New England. Its cold climate and far proximity to Mexico make it difficult for the illegal immigrant to re-locate much less make use of any social welfare programs. Hmmm...you guys should probably add another reason to the 101 reasons to move to New Hampshire. I can guarantee you that if NH was a border state to Mexico - its viability of being a haven for libertarianism would be non-existent.

Whats ironic, is that mport1 thinks illegal immigration is a boon to the economy yet I'm actually considering moving to New Hampshire from sunny southern California due in large part to the damage wrought by illegal immigration.

I'm not in New Hampshire yet. I live in Las Vegas.
 
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