Are you a Constitutionalist or an Anarchist?

[acptulsa]

I'd like to say Constitutionalist, but I'm also trying to survive. I fear that we are getting to the point, if not already there, wherein Constitutional remedies may not be an option.

Yes, exactly. They made that document as irrelevant as they could in preparation for this. It's not doing us any good any more, might as well trash it.

And while we're bidding it a fond, tearful adieu, we're not hardly paying enough attention to what they intend to replace it with.

Well, it won't be Biden who tells us. It'll be Trump. Why? Because we won't let Biden tell us. But after four years of insanity, starvation and death, a very great many people will let Trump tell us.

It's a very possible potential danger that we had damned well better be alert to.

 

[Snowball]

Just the kind of oversimplification that does more to hinder communication than help it.

Yes, it was a step down the road simply because the AoC was better. That said, while we adhered to it letter and spirit we were well off. And we did, never perfectly, but to a degree young people today cannot see and have trouble understanding.

Are you suggesting that after a particular time, our elected officials and the courts stopped adhering to the Constitution?
That is debatable. They would say they did not. So, either the Constitution is deficient or malleable enough to allow it, regardless, just like Spooner said.

 

[acptulsa]

Are you suggesting that after a particular time, our elected officials and the courts stopped adhering to the Constitution?
That is debatable. They would say they did not. So, either the Constitution is deficient or malleable enough to allow it, regardless, just like Spooner said.

"The Constitution is just a piece of paper." When Dubya said that, everyone assumed he was merely expressing his disdain for the principles it was built on. But that's not it, in my opinion. Dubya was saying, a piece of paper doesn't have teeth. And while people do have teeth, they will only use them to protect a piece of paper if they understand how it makes their lives better.

The hundred dollar bill in your wallet is just a piece of paper. It can't and won't protect itself from the mugger in your face. You have to do that.

The deficiency lies not in the principles on which this republic was founded, but in us. We are suffering these injustices not because the Constitution is malleable, but because too many of us are. And yes, I do personally remember a time when this wasn't as true as it is now.

 

[Matt Collins]

Matt. We DID follow the Constitution. That's WHY we are here.

No, the government did not follow it. 98% of what the federal government does is contrary to the Constitution

 

[nobody's_hero]

The deficiency lies not in the principles on which this republic was founded, but in us. We are suffering these injustices not because the Constitution is malleable, but because too many of us are. And yes, I do personally remember a time when this wasn't as true as it is now.

Well said.

I was in Europe when the constitution was planned & established, and never saw it till after it was established. on receiving it I wrote strongly to mr Madison urging the want of provision for the freedom of religion, freedom of the press, trial by jury, habeas corpus, the substitution of militia for a standing army, and an express reservation to the states of all rights not specifically granted to the union. he accordingly moved in the first session of Congress for these Amendments which were agreed to & ratified by the states as they now stand. this is all the hand I had in what related to the Constitution. our predecessors made it doubtful how far even these were of any value. for the very law which endangered your personal safety, as well as that which restrained the freedom of the press, were gross violations of them. however it is still certain that tho’ written constitutions may be violated in moments of passion or delusion, yet they furnish a text to which those who are watchful may again rally & recall the people: they fix too for the people principles for their political creed.- From Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, 19 June 1802

Those words ring quite true to me. Ron Paul standing on that stage in 2008, harping on a literal, strict interpretation of the Constitution was one such 'rally and recall' moment.

 

[Snowball]

No, the government did not follow it. 98% of what the federal government does is contrary to the Constitution

Then why does the Constitution provide for its own destruction?

 

[acptulsa]

Then why does the Constitution provide for its own destruction?

Stop being cryptic. Are you referring to the amendment process? Because without that it would have fallen much sooner. I doubt it would have lasted long enough for the civil war to destroy it.

 

[Snowball]

Stop being cryptic. Are you referring to the amendment process? Because without that it would have fallen much sooner. I doubt it would have lasted long enough for the civil war to destroy it.

No, I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to whatever Matt or anyone else perceives to be illegal per the Constitution that is happening.
If the Constitution allows our representatives, including Potus and their appointments, like Scotus to VIOLATE the Constitution then it is INSUFFICIENT.
At the very least, more like negligible, naive, or outright disingenuous,or ill-conceived, or fraudulent..... and few will admit it.

 

[acptulsa]

Well, sorry, dude, the founders didn't have a killbot to write it on. All they had was harmless parchment.

 

[Snowball]

Well, sorry, dude, the founders didn't have a killbot to write it on. All they had was harmless parchment.

They also forced detractors to sign - under duress of sorts.

Rhode Island is a prime example of that.

https://prologue.blogs.archives.gov...nd-the-last-state-to-ratify-the-constitution/

 

[fisharmor]

while we adhered to it letter and spirit we were well off.

It took a whole 7 years before they made criticizing the federal government illegal.
Constitutionalism is a good idea and it should be followed even in statelessness. Everyone needs a baseline set of presuppositions to work from no matter what the context.
The problem is there will never be a critical mass of people who are willing to deal harshly with those who reject that approach for short term gain.
And none of us is going to stick our necks out to try to do that, because we're all aware that the only critical mass has existed in this country for the last 160 years is the one that keeps its knives sharp looking for those necks. And we're all aware that critical mass includes a LOT of 'constitutionalists'.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Are you suggesting that after a particular time, our elected officials and the courts stopped adhering to the Constitution?
That is debatable. They would say they did not. So, either the Constitution is deficient or malleable enough to allow it, regardless, just like Spooner said.

acptulsa is exactly right. That is exactly what happened. And when they say they did not they are being the outright liars they perpetually prove themselves to be beyond all reasonable doubt.

 

[ATruepatriot]

Going along with your way of framing history, just for the sake of argument, under what system did this successful occupation take place?

Just think Anschluss as a historical example of what has happened. But instead of Hitler it is the globalist counsel of Corporations. What type of government we have is totally irrelevant. They own everything in the world but Russia including our government through assets, debt, bribes, and extortion. And in this digital age it was all done without a physical invasion, any shots fired, and it can be ruled remotely as a satellite territory with a keyboard.

Anschluss: Hitler's bloodless conquest of Austria

" On March 12, German forces crossed the Austrian border. They faced no resistance and were greeted by many Austrians with enthusiasm and support, a reflection of the significant pro-Nazi sentiment among parts of the Austrian population.

The German troops swiftly took control of key infrastructure and government institutions.

By the time they reached Vienna on March 14, Austria had effectively ceased to exist as an independent nation.

https://www.historyskills.com/classroom/year-10/anschluss/

 

[Invisible Man]

Just think Anschluss as a historical example of what has happened. But instead of Hitler it is the globalist counsel of Corporations. What type of government we have is totally irrelevant. They own everything in the world but Russia including our government through assets, debt, bribes, and extortion. And in this digital age it was all done without a physical invasion, any shots fired, and it can be ruled remotely as a satellite territory with a keyboard.

Anschluss: Hitler's bloodless conquest of Austria

" On March 12, German forces crossed the Austrian border. They faced no resistance and were greeted by many Austrians with enthusiasm and support, a reflection of the significant pro-Nazi sentiment among parts of the Austrian population.

The German troops swiftly took control of key infrastructure and government institutions.

By the time they reached Vienna on March 14, Austria had effectively ceased to exist as an independent nation.

https://www.historyskills.com/classroom/year-10/anschluss/

All of this sounds like an illustration of how constitutionalism fails.

I'm just confused as to how you initially brought this up to somehow illustrate why anarchism fails.

 

[Invisible Man]

There seems to be this mindset among some in the liberty movement that the U.S Government is the only potential aggressor and that other governments won't fill the vacuum and get greedy.

You are worried about the threat of some other government filling the void that would be left if our current government weren't there. But to the extent that we are threatened by other governments, that danger is greater with the presence of our current government than it would be in its absence.

 

[acptulsa]

All of this sounds like an illustration of how constitutionalism fails.

That and overprinting the funny money. Works every time.

Hard to declare a currency valid by fiat in an anarchy...

 

[nobody's_hero]

Ultimately, people want some sort of system that will automatically restrain itself. Such a thing has never existed in human history.

The first kings were basically people who gathered a following and conquered their neighbors. It would be essentially impossible for anarchists to organize and resist them, without unwittingly forming, at the very least, some loose structure of government (probably some sort of tribal government, a precursor to feudalism).

The tendency of human nature is to establish leaders. Village elders, tribal chiefs, kings, presidents.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Ultimately, people want some sort of system that will automatically restrain itself. Such a thing has never existed in human history.

The first kings were basically people who gathered a following and conquered their neighbors. It would be essentially impossible for anarchists to organize and resist them, without unwittingly forming, at the very least, some loose structure of government (probably some sort of tribal government, a precursor to feudalism).

The tendency of human nature is to establish leaders. Village elders, tribal chiefs, kings, presidents.

Anarchists want us to trade one abusive gang for thousands of them and to pretend that one won't simply conquer all the others anyway.

 

[Swordsmyth]

You are worried about the threat of some other government filling the void that would be left if our current government weren't there. But to the extent that we are threatened by other governments, that danger is greater with the presence of our current government than it would be in its absence.

Bunk.

 

[Swordsmyth]

All of this sounds like an illustration of how constitutionalism fails.

I'm just confused as to how you initially brought this up to somehow illustrate why anarchism fails.

Constitutionalism has a greater ability to resist, nothing is perfect, but anarchism doesn't exist because it fails immediately and did so repeatedly for thousands of years.
Someone creates a power structure and imposes it on anarchy, you can either get a say in that or not.