Are you a Constitutionalist or an Anarchist?

[pcosmar]

Well I am an anarchist, precisely because I recognize all states as aggressive, greedy, and vaccuum-filling by their very nature.
I fully recognize that in all cases I can point to where there was no functional state as we define it, another aggressor state came in and bayonetted their way into power.
I do not have an answer for this... but I also believe it's kind of on the state apologists to first explain why, if states are immutably agressive, violent, and greedy, why we should tolerate them at all, and why we continually have this argument, instead of the smart argument, which is how to stop them in the end game.

I have an answer. Human nature (corrupted by malevolent entities).
The same reason other forms of government both exist and fail.

Our Founders understood this,, and attempted a first time experiment. A Free people and Limited government.
an "anti-authoritarian" government in concept where the people rule themselves.

I believe it a good idea that could be improved. and the best proposed so far,,, historically.

 

[osan]

I am an autodiathist.

"Anarchy" carries far too much baggage.

 

[William Tell]

Well I am an anarchist, precisely because I recognize all states as aggressive, greedy, and vaccuum-filling by their very nature.
I fully recognize that in all cases I can point to where there was no functional state as we define it, another aggressor state came in and bayonetted their way into power.
I do not have an answer for this... but I also believe it's kind of on the state apologists to first explain why, if states are immutably agressive, violent, and greedy, why we should tolerate them at all, and why we continually have this argument, instead of the smart argument, which is how to stop them in the end game.

The way I see it it's like if you live in a very small town outside a large city. Say 200 people. You see what's wrong with government in general, so you could try to convince the voters to abolish the town government on principle. Nothing wrong with that, until you get rid of the town charter and Dallas, or Chicago, or wherever you are at annexes you and makes you part of a worse system. I don't apologize for government, it frustrates me as much as anyone. Just seems to me no matter how bad the odds are we have a better chance of halfway cleaning up our own house in America than we do of convincing the whole world to abandon aggression.

Our problem is not just government, it is abuse of any kind of power which is human nature. Churches, governments, tribes, businesses, evil pops up everywhere.

 

[Superfluous Man]

Just seems to me no matter how bad the odds are we have a better chance of halfway cleaning up our own house in America than we do of convincing the whole world to abandon aggression.

I don't hold out any hope of ever seeing the world abandon aggression. But I'll still abandon it anyway, because that's the right thing to do.

 

[Vieux Canard]

I'm a Bokononist

 

[fisharmor]

The way I see it it's like if you live in a very small town outside a large city. Say 200 people. You see what's wrong with government in general, so you could try to convince the voters to abolish the town government on principle. Nothing wrong with that, until you get rid of the town charter and Dallas, or Chicago, or wherever you are at annexes you and makes you part of a worse system. I don't apologize for government, it frustrates me as much as anyone. Just seems to me no matter how bad the odds are we have a better chance of halfway cleaning up our own house in America than we do of convincing the whole world to abandon aggression.

Our problem is not just government, it is abuse of any kind of power which is human nature. Churches, governments, tribes, businesses, evil pops up everywhere.

I do not intend to convince the whole world to give up on aggression.

You're not apologizing for government, you're just rejecting the idea that market forces can provide goods or services that are popular.
Or you're claiming that territorial defense isn't popular.
In either case, you're assuming that it won't be possible without a state. You might be saying that states serve some sort of scarecrow role in addition to being the only valid form of defense.

This conversation always hovers around faith, or lack of faith, in markets. If there is no market for territorial defense then people have no desire for it, and it's useless to force it upon them. If there is a market for territorial defense and you believe that it can be catered to in a non-monopolistic fashion, then we can move on to the discussion of how to convince a critical mass of other people that this is the case.

Otherwise, like I wrote above, we will spin our wheels on that point.

 

[Tywysog Cymru]

There seems to be this mindset among some in the liberty movement that the U.S Government is the only potential aggressor and that other governments won't fill the vacuum and get greedy.

They also have the idea that in the case of America becoming anarchist, an invading foreign power would try to occupy the entire US. It's quite naive.

You assume an attack.

I do not.

Maybe Mexico wouldn't attack. But they would have many incentives to attack:

-Control of resources (plenty of oil in Texas)
-Much of the US was formerly Mexican territory
-There wouldn't be any organized force to resist invasion
-They wouldn't face any of the consequences of invading a sovereign nation

 

[pcosmar]

-There wouldn't be any organized force to resist invasion
-They wouldn't face any of the consequences of invading a sovereign nation

Those are both an assumption.

and a good deterrents to an attack plan,

There may well be a local force to contend with and consequences for invasion.
see Afghanistan, )

 

[Ender]

I have an answer. Human nature (corrupted by malevolent entities).
The same reason other forms of government both exist and fail.

Our Founders understood this,, and attempted a first time experiment. A Free people and Limited government.
an "anti-authoritarian" government in concept where the people rule themselves.

I believe it a good idea that could be improved. and the best proposed so far,,, historically.

What the Founders "attempted" isn't on the choice list.

The Articles of Confederation was to insure small government with locals directing their own laws. The central gov was to be pretty much powerless, except for defense & international trade.

The Constitution was a Hamiltonian coupe for a large central gov controlled by elites. It has worked beautifully.

The PROBLEM is that Americans have been raised in public schools to be servants and worshippers of the coupe, instead of actually learning about, and living, real freedom and how it can operate in a community.

 

[Weston White]

Ideology is a spectrum, one may simultaneously be both or neither or a combination of other ideologies. So says Rainbow Snatch, thus, be it so.

 

[ATruepatriot]

There seems to be this mindset among some in the liberty movement that the U.S Government is the only potential aggressor and that other governments won't fill the vacuum and get greedy.

Finally... Some true critical thinking skills about real world cause and effect. I dropped in to add to your logical and rational reality. It is absolutely a factor not being considered. And the truth is it has already happened. The reality is we have already been invaded and occupied and incarcerated within our own borders as a prison nation by external entities. We are already ruled by a one world governing counsel of corporations. The invasion was successful and it is now our new reality.

So all the "what ifs" or "I prefer" ideology has already now been negated in full.

 

[Matt Collins]

Minarchist. Although to be honest if the government followed the Constitution I would probably be 98% happy with just that.

 

[ATruepatriot]

How soon we forget...

 

[Snowball]

Minarchist. Although to be honest if the government followed the Constitution I would probably be 98% happy with just that.

Matt. We DID follow the Constitution. That's WHY we are here.

 

[Liberty_Tree]

How soon we forget...

 

[Liberty_Tree]

Anarchist/Voluntaryist

 

[acptulsa]

Matt. We DID follow the Constitution. That's WHY we are here.

Just the kind of oversimplification that does more to hinder communication than help it.

Yes, it was a step down the road simply because the AoC was better. That said, while we adhered to it letter and spirit we were well off. And we did, never perfectly, but to a degree young people today cannot see and have trouble understanding.

 

[Invisible Man]

Finally... Some true critical thinking skills about real world cause and effect. I dropped in to add to your logical and rational reality. It is absolutely a factor not being considered. And the truth is it has already happened. The reality is we have already been invaded and occupied and incarcerated within our own borders as a prison nation by external entities. We are already ruled by a one world governing counsel of corporations. The invasion was successful and it is now our new reality.

So all the "what ifs" or "I prefer" ideology has already now been negated in full.

Going along with your way of framing history, just for the sake of argument, under what system did this successful occupation take place?

 

[acptulsa]

Going along with your way of framing history, just for the sake of argument, under what system did this successful occupation take place?

The System of Expedient Hypocrisy.

Hold your nose and vote because the worst Republican isn't as bad as the best Democrat. Vote blue no matter who. Sometimes principle has to be sacrificed to slow the spread. You know the clichés.

Expedient Hypocrisy.

There are people on this very forum ready to trash what's left of the Constitution just to keep them from reinstalling Biden one more time before he dies. I'm just sure our great-grandchildren will be grateful. Assuming we have any, of course, considering impotence is growing at Warp Speed.

 

[Philhelm]

I'd like to say Constitutionalist, but I'm also trying to survive. I fear that we are getting to the point, if not already there, wherein Constitutional remedies may not be an option.