A confession

[Christian Liberty]

I understand what you're talking about, I was just referring to churches that preach politics rather than the gospel.

I've never been in such a church, but I know they exist. Personally, I do not want church to be like a Libertarian Party Meeting (No, I haven't been to one, but you know what I'm talking about.) But, I wouldn't want the church to be a gay bashing meeting either. I want the focus to be on preaching the gospel. But... moral issues are going to come up, and when they do, I believe that the evils of our government and our military should be mentioned. For instance, my dad preached on Genesis 9 recently. He talked about how the command of Genesis 9:6 has been ignored in our culture, including abortion and euthanasia. Would have been the perfect opportunity to say something about the evils of war. I'm not saying it needs to be every week, but we don't need homosexuality to necessarily be condemned every single week either. Doesn't mean its ever in any way OK to say that its OK.

 

[Ronin Truth]

As I used to tell my kids, growing up, it's not your job or concern what other folks have done. If you take care of your own crap, you've got more than a full time job on your hands.

 

[erowe1]

And yet on the banner it says "free markets" and "limited government".

So? You're the one who associated them with libertarians.

 

[Dianne]

I feel sad reading your post. I grew up in South Carolina, where the life of anything was worth nothing. Kill, Kill, Kill, Kill . Southern Baptists.. church every Sunday, yet run over a dog on the way home; keep driving... nothing gained, nothing lost in their view.

We reap what we sow. Until each of us in this world, learns to respect LIFE, in whatever form; we will always be doomed. There is a purpose for everything, and everyone ............. Learn to respect that.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

I find the majority of western libertarians to be insufferable advocates of the privileged over those that aren't. They claim to be "for the people", but neglect to say "the people" are the elite. Ayn Rand killed Hayek, and the honesty of Adam Smith were swept under the carpet. Groups like ALEC that claim to be free market are just pro-intervention when it fucks over the competition of those that fund or administrated them.

Honestly, it also seems that the intellectuals within the movement are now replaced with dogmatic thinking, and critical thinking is dying. I developed my beliefs off of people like Friedrich Hayek not as influences, but as critics. For every ideology (not just libertarians) now, no one thinks of the game of politics and just makes bogeymen out of "them". Now, it's just that "us and them" mentality with everyone. If I mention that I'm a socialist, I get bombarded with comments on how I love Stalin or whatever else, when in reality I'm a lot closer to people like George Orwell. The Democrats and Republicans will attack each other despite having little policy difference, and even my fellow socialists have gotten over the top with making conspiracy theories about how everyone is out to get them.

My answer would just be to stop seeing yourself as superior and more as a educator or a critic if that's how you feel. Honestly, that's why I'm here, because I want to be the kind of critic that shapes an opposing movement into being more honest.

I find people who think a majority can legitimately take from a minority to be insufferable. Feeding the Abscess posted a good meme in the picture thread. Something having to do with legal positivism and Nazism. You want to be honest with yourself, read It is Dangerous to be Right When the Government is Wrong by Andrew Napolitano. I believe he even mentions some of the persecution (though you might consider it legitimate, if simply just on principle) of "anarchists" (Socialists, mainly) during WWI. Check out that book and let me know what you think. Especially if you wish to challenge your worldview.

 

[TER]

It is a fearful thing to hate whom God has loved. To look upon another- his weaknesses, his sins, his faults, his defects- is to look upon one who is suffering. He is suffering from negative passions, from the same sinful human corruption from which you yourself suffer. This is very important: do not look upon him with judgmental eyes of comparison, noting the sins you assume you'd never commit. Rather, see him as a fellow sufferer, a fellow human being who is in need of the very healing of which you are in need. Help him, love him, pray for him, do unto him as you would have him do unto you.

- St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

 

[TER]

A Christian must not be fanatic; he must have love for all people.

Those who inconsiderately toss comments, even if they are true, can cause harm. I met an author who was extremely pious, but was in the habit of speaking to the (secular) people around him in a blunt manner, which however penetrated so deep that it shook them very severely. He told me at one time: “During a gathering, I said such and such a thing to a lady.” But the way that he said it, crushed her. “Look”, I said to him, “you may be tossing golden crowns studded with diamonds to other people, but the way that you throw them can smash heads – not only the sensitive ones, but the sound ones also.”

Let’s not stone our fellow-man in a…. Christian manner. The person who – in the presence of others – checks someone for having sinned, or speaks in an impassioned manner about a certain person, is not moved by the Spirit of God: he is moved by another spirit. The way of the Church is LOVE; it differs from the way of the legalists.

The Church sees everything with tolerance and seeks to help each person, whatever he may have done, however sinful he may be. I have observed a peculiar kind of logic in certain pious people. Their piety is a good thing, and their predisposition for good is also a good thing; however, a certain spiritual discernment and amplitude is required so that their piety is not accompanied by narrow-mindedness or strong-headedness (strong, as in “unturning”). The whole basis is for someone to be in a spiritual state, so that he may have that spiritual discernment, because otherwise he will forever remain attached to the “letter of the Law”, and the letter of the Law can be “deadly”.

The one who possesses humility will never act like a teacher; he will listen, and whenever his opinion is requested, he will respond humbly. In other words, he will reply like a student. Whoever believes that he is capable of correcting others is filled with egotism.

-Elder Paisios of Mt. Athos

 

[TER]

"You cannot be too gentle, too kind. Shun even to appear harsh in your treatment of each other. Joy, radiant joy, streams from the face of him who gives and kindles joy in the heart of him who receives. All condemnation is from the devil. Never condemn each other. We condemn others only because we shun knowing ourselves. When we gaze at our own failings, we see such a swamp that nothing in another can equal it. That is why we turn away, and make much of the faults of others.

Instead of condemning others, strive to reach inner peace. Keep silent, refrain from judgement. This will raise you above the deadly arrows of slander, insult and outrage and will shield your glowing hearts against all evil."

- St Seraphim of Sarov

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't hate them, or at least I don't think I do. But I'm not sure I can handle treating them on "equal terms" as brothers in the faith anymore. Would we embrace an unrepentant homosexual, or command him to repent?

 

[TER]

FF, the best advice I can give is advice from those much greater then me:


It is useless to accuse those around us and those who live with us of somehow interfering with or being an impediment to our salvation and spiritual perfection… Spiritual or emotional dissatisfaction comes from within ourselves, from inexperience and from poorly conceived opinions we do not want to abandon, but which bring on doubt, embarrassment, and misunderstanding. All of this tires and burdens us, and brings us to a sorry state. We would do well to comprehend the Holy Fathers’ simple advice: If we will humble ourselves, we will find tranquility anywhere, without having to mentally wander about many other places, where we might have the same, or even worse, experiences.

- St. Ambrose of Optina

 

[TER]

Having fallen from his heavenly rank through pride, the devil constantly strives to bring down also all those who wholeheartedly wish to approach the Lord; and he uses the same means which caused his own downfall, that is pride and love of vainglory. These and similar things are the means by which the demons fight us and hope to separate us from God.

Moreover, knowing that he who loves his brother loves also God, they put into our hearts hatred of one another - and this to such degree that at times a man cannot bear to see his brother or say a word to him. Many have performed truly great labors of virtue, but have ruined themselves through folly. It would not be surprising if the same thing were to happen to you too; if, for example, having cooled towards active work, you begin to imagine that you already possess virtues. For there you have already fallen into that devilish disease (high opinion of yourself), thinking that you are close to God and are in the light, whereas in actual fact you are in darkness.

What made our Lord Jesus Christ lay aside his garments, gird himself with a towel, and, pouring water into a basin, begin to wash the feet of those who were below Him (John 13:4, etc.), if not to teach us humility? For it was humility He showed us by example of what He then did. And indeed those who want to be accepted into the foremost rank cannot achieve this otherwise than through humility; for in the beginning the thing that caused downfall from heaven was a movement of pride. So, if a man lacks extreme humility, if he is not humble with all his heart, all his mind, all his spirit, all his soul and body - he will not inherit the kingdom of God.

- St Anthony the Great

 

[TER]

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

- Luke 18:9-14

 

[Christian Liberty]

FF, the best advice I can give is advice from those much greater then me:


It is useless to accuse those around us and those who live with us of somehow interfering with or being an impediment to our salvation and spiritual perfection… Spiritual or emotional dissatisfaction comes from within ourselves, from inexperience and from poorly conceived opinions we do not want to abandon, but which bring on doubt, embarrassment, and misunderstanding. All of this tires and burdens us, and brings us to a sorry state. We would do well to comprehend the Holy Fathers’ simple advice: If we will humble ourselves, we will find tranquility anywhere, without having to mentally wander about many other places, where we might have the same, or even worse, experiences.

- St. Ambrose of Optina

How do you interpret Matthew 18 in the light of that?

I agree with you that nobody who you associate with can affect your salvation. I'm not questioning whether I'm saved because of this issue. I'm wondering if attending a church that does not condemn military "service" and police aggression as sins can be justified anymore than attending a church that doesn't condemn homosexuality or adultery as sins can be justified. Admittedly, this question doesn't really reflect the OP, but that's really what I'm trying to work through on an intellectual level. Obviously feeling superior to other people is wrong, without God's grace we'd all be every bit as bad as the Nazis.

 

[Christian Liberty]

He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

- Luke 18:9-14

Yeah, but the tax collector was actually repentant. of course, every Christian should embrace the repentant tax collector, police officer, soldier, homosexual, adulterer, murderer, whatever. But with the unrepentant, wouldn't Matthew 18 come into play? I can't think of a single Christian (At least in the kind of conservative churches I'm familiar with, I'm sure its different in more liberal churches) who wouldn't say "yes" when it comes to homosexuality or adultery. Yet most of them would also hold that tax collectors, police officers who enforce laws against victimless "crimes", and soldiers who fight in foreign wars and wreck havoc on foreign countries are not sinning.

TER, I'm not sure if you can answer this question since you believe your church is THE right church. I don't believe that about any particular earthly church, that it is THE right church. I believe that, as erowe said, some churches are better than others. But how much sin should we tolerate in a church?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I find the majority of western libertarians to be insufferable advocates of the privileged over those that aren't. They claim to be "for the people", but neglect to say "the people" are the elite. Ayn Rand killed Hayek, and the honesty of Adam Smith were swept under the carpet. Groups like ALEC that claim to be free market are just pro-intervention when it fucks over the competition of those that fund or administrated them.

Honestly, it also seems that the intellectuals within the movement are now replaced with dogmatic thinking, and critical thinking is dying. I developed my beliefs off of people like Friedrich Hayek not as influences, but as critics. For every ideology (not just libertarians) now, no one thinks of the game of politics and just makes bogeymen out of "them". Now, it's just that "us and them" mentality with everyone. If I mention that I'm a socialist, I get bombarded with comments on how I love Stalin or whatever else, when in reality I'm a lot closer to people like George Orwell. The Democrats and Republicans will attack each other despite having little policy difference, and even my fellow socialists have gotten over the top with making conspiracy theories about how everyone is out to get them.

My answer would just be to stop seeing yourself as superior and more as a educator or a critic if that's how you feel. Honestly, that's why I'm here, because I want to be the kind of critic that shapes an opposing movement into being more honest.

Rand was not a libertarian (she denounced libertarians as "hippies of the Right"). She's an Objectivist-which has many things in common with libertarianism, but falls short in many ways.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I feel sad reading your post. I grew up in South Carolina, where the life of anything was worth nothing. Kill, Kill, Kill, Kill . Southern Baptists.. church every Sunday, yet run over a dog on the way home; keep driving... nothing gained, nothing lost in their view.

We reap what we sow. Until each of us in this world, learns to respect LIFE, in whatever form; we will always be doomed. There is a purpose for everything, and everyone ............. Learn to respect that.

I don't have a problem with killing animals (of course, I'm not saying it should be done for no reason). Its the unrepentant killing of, and stealing from, PEOPLE that is my issue here.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Yeah, but the tax collector was actually repentant. of course, every Christian should embrace the repentant tax collector, police officer, soldier, homosexual, adulterer, murderer, whatever. But with the unrepentant, wouldn't Matthew 18 come into play? I can't think of a single Christian (At least in the kind of conservative churches I'm familiar with, I'm sure its different in more liberal churches) who wouldn't say "yes" when it comes to homosexuality or adultery. Yet most of them would also hold that tax collectors, police officers who enforce laws against victimless "crimes", and soldiers who fight in foreign wars and wreck havoc on foreign countries are not sinning.

TER, I'm not sure if you can answer this question since you believe your church is THE right church. I don't believe that about any particular earthly church, that it is THE right church. I believe that, as erowe said, some churches are better than others. But how much sin should we tolerate in a church?

"Parish" is the appropriate word if you are referring to individual congregations that are part of a Church (orthodox or Roman Catholic). The apostolic Church TER talks about is not an earthly building or place. I discussed this at length before, though. Start another thread if you want to derail onto this subject.

 

[TER]

How do you interpret Matthew 18 in the light of that?

There are several different parables in Matthew 18. Which one are you referring to?

I agree with you that nobody who you associate with can affect your salvation.

But the teachings of Christ are clear that how we associate with them can and does affect our salvation. And the greatest commandments are love, mercy, forgiveness and charity.

I'm not questioning whether I'm saved because of this issue

The humble person should however.

I'm wondering if attending a church that does not condemn military "service" and police aggression as sins can be justified anymore than attending a church that doesn't condemn homosexuality or adultery as sins can be justified. Admittedly, this question doesn't really reflect the OP, but that's really what I'm trying to work through on an intellectual level.

The reason for communal and liturgical worship within a church is to glorify God and to pray for the world and to 'meet' God and join in spiritual union with Him and through Him with all the faithful. When the worship and the faith is one in this way, then all these political and social issues begin to disappear. Of course, there will always be those who have varying opinions on this matter or that, small things pertaining to life in this world circa 2014. But with the fundamental, orthodox, and ancient Christian witness and teachings, there will be no conflict but unity of mind and spirit.

 

[TER]

Would we embrace an unrepentant homosexual, or command him to repent?

Of course we should love all people, all the way to our enemies, and pray for all people, whether they are repentant or not, just as Christ prayed for those who were laughing at Him after having crucified Him. But it is not our place to command others unless we have been put in that authority by God (such as in the example of a parent to a child), and even then it should be done with gentleness, patience and much discernment.

We should offer our prayers and our charity and kindness to all our neighbors instead of fixating ourselves on a particular view on this or that or judging our neighbor's beliefs or actions which may simply be due to pure ignorance or having been deceived. Rather, the better way, the more blessed way, is for us to concentrate our minds on correcting our own sins and failures and work on ridding ourselves of our own evil and destructive passions, praying always for God's help and mercy. That alone is more than enough for the average person to do.

This is why Christ brought up the Parable mentioned above about the tax collector and the Pharisee. The Pharisee, as good and righteous a life he lived, (following the commandments of God to the letter), he foolishly squandered it all away by judging the faults of the tax collector and placing himself above the other. This is what we must be careful of! The hardened and prideful heart!

The person who truly sees how much he sins before God and how often he goes against His holy will, and whose heart has been softened by tears of compunction and contrition, spends his time instead praying for God's mercy, and will be too busy mourning over his own sins than counting those of another and risk squandering everything away like the Pharisee.

 

[Tywysog Cymru]

I've never been in such a church, but I know they exist. Personally, I do not want church to be like a Libertarian Party Meeting (No, I haven't been to one, but you know what I'm talking about.) But, I wouldn't want the church to be a gay bashing meeting either. I want the focus to be on preaching the gospel. But... moral issues are going to come up, and when they do, I believe that the evils of our government and our military should be mentioned. For instance, my dad preached on Genesis 9 recently. He talked about how the command of Genesis 9:6 has been ignored in our culture, including abortion and euthanasia. Would have been the perfect opportunity to say something about the evils of war. I'm not saying it needs to be every week, but we don't need homosexuality to necessarily be condemned every single week either. Doesn't mean its ever in any way OK to say that its OK.

I agree with condemning war on certain occasions. I don't think there is much use in beating a the dead horse on abortion or homosexuality because most people in Conservative churches have those figured out.