A Christian Looks at Islam

[Ender]

Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.

In absolute agreement.

 

[1stvermont]

I have read a few stories about Muslim women who came to the west and lived as westerners, only to return to the ME & again enter into the Islamic culture because of the way that women are treated in the western culture. To them it was as if the women were nothing but sex toys and playthings for men. They felt much more respect by men in the Islamic world.

I am not saying that either is "best". I am pointing out that what one person thinks is "good" or "normal" for someone else may not necessarily be correct, by that person's standards.

if true the majority are just the opposite. tell me are Muslims in america migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment of woman or any other reason? why are millions migrating out of Islamic countries? where are the million of non Muslims migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment?

Having said that I dont think what you say is not true. Woman are treated terrible in secular progressive countries like the us. I also agree with you that different cultures view things different. So just as an exsample a 60 something year old man marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her when she is 9 is standard in Saudi Arabia before Muhammad, during his life, and still in Islamic nations today. As a westerner that is hard for me to accept because of my upbringing. Beating your wife and the various other issues I raised in my op about woman and the islamic view is also hard for me to accept.

However I must point out my worldview is not secular, but christian. So I judge based on that as a standard. That is why my op is a christian looks at Islam. I try to judge by gods standard, otherwise their is no foundation but relativism and no way to know truth. i am christian not atheist.

 

[1stvermont]

Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.

He does, any way they come to jesus is fine. However He does not allow them to believe falsehood or follow any cultures standard of behavior and pretend its ok.

 

[Ender]

if true the majority are just the opposite. tell me are Muslims in america migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment of woman or any other reason? why are millions migrating out of Islamic countries? where are the million of non Muslims migrating to Muslim countries because of the treatment?

Having said that I dont think what you say is not true. Woman are treated terrible in secular progressive countries like the us. I also agree with you that different cultures view things different. So just as an exsample a 60 something year old man marrying a 6 year old girl and having sex with her when she is 9 is standard in Saudi Arabia before Muhammad, during his life, and still in Islamic nations today. As a westerner that is hard for me to accept because of my upbringing. Beating your wife and the various other issues I raised in my op about woman and the islamic view is also hard for me to accept.

However I must point out my worldview is not secular, but christian. So I judge based on that as a standard. That is why my op is a christian looks at Islam. I try to judge by gods standard, otherwise their is no foundation but relativism and no way to know truth. i am christian not atheist.

Much of the immigration has to do with bombing the ME - if this was stopped things may look a bit different.

Also, up until the end of the 19 century, the age of consent in both Europe & the US was usually 10-12 yrs old. Some places it was as high as 13, while in others it was as low as 7. So while in a modern day POV a man from the middle ages might look evil for having a child-wife, in that day and setting, it was not evil and was fairly commonplace.

And, I am a Christian Minister.

 

[acptulsa]

He does, any way they come to jesus is fine. However He does not allow them to believe falsehood or follow any cultures standard of behavior and pretend its ok.

Fair enough. After all, Mohammed came to Jesus.

 

[1stvermont]

Much of the immigration has to do with bombing the ME - if this was stopped things may look a bit different.

Also, up until the end of the 19 century, the age of consent in both Europe & the US was usually 10-12 yrs old. Some places it was as high as 13, while in others it was as low as 7. So while in a modern day POV a man from the middle ages might look evil for having a child-wife, in that day and setting, it was not evil and was fairly commonplace.

And, I am a Christian Minister.

Ender? legalas? Tolkien fan? I love Tolkien. Are you aware he was libertarian? I wrote a short bio on him on this site here it is.

[h=2]J.R.R Tolkien Libertarian Creator Of Middle Earth[/h]http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?518671-J-R-R-Tolkien-Libertarian-Creator-Of-Middle-Earth



As to your post you say you are christian minister. Than would you agree that just because some people think it is ok to act a certain way [ lets say having sex with captured slaves while you are already married aka muta in islam] does not make it ok in the sight of god?

 

[1stvermont]

Which is why, I thought, we were all inclined to become libertarian, instead of collectivist.

And why, I would think, God would be inclined to allow His children to find as many different ways as they need to come to Him.

I was also just thinking. What do you think I am doing this for? if i truly loved Muslims and they were following a false prophet as i believe they are. Is not the most loving thing to try and show them that? to free them? maybe to put them on a path to truth?

 

[Muwahid]

Muwahid

I want to apologize if i seemed harsh at any time. I respect you defending your beliefs. I have thought on our discussion and think we are somewhat missing each others purpose. I agree with you Islam improved woman situation. I agree islam is not anti-woman and there are good aspects to islam. However my issue is it is not true. You have taken issue with the treatment of woman under islam and shown some positives. I agree. But my issue is not the positives but the negatives. I also am not saying islam is not true because of this just that it is hard to accept for me given some of the stuff on woman and islam.

Thanks for apologizing, even though I don't think you needed to apologize you were not harsh we're just passionate -- and I apologize if I seemed to assume your intent.

I don't expect to be able to convince everyone on every point on Islam, if that was the case I could just simply convert everyone. My real goal is to step away from the fear-mongering which is unfortunately becoming ubiquitous in the age of the alt-right and reactionary politics on the right.

I just like a measured approach when discussing religion, it's why rather than sticking to one hadith or verse, and over-analyzing the certain words used and coming up with ridiculous apologetic arguments, I like to look at the big picture first. I think if people did this they would find Islam was a positive for women, for minorities, for the downtrodden, it encourages charity, and kind treatment of everyone who is not actively against the Muslims, whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim.

Now you may disagree with some of the theistic points, how we view Jesus, or the nature of God. Those are really interesting discussions to have and I encourage that; we've had some nice discussions here and I've learned a lot about Christianity from my friends on this website, and in the end it really made me feel like we're more brethren than we might think.

 

[fisharmor]

I don't expect to be able to convince everyone on every point on Islam, if that was the case I could just simply convert everyone.

I am not sure why you would try, since Islam has done a fine job at growing its numbers through its traditional "evangelism" method.

My real goal is to step away from the fear-mongering which is unfortunately becoming ubiquitous in the age of the alt-right and reactionary politics on the right.

My brother-in-law is the priest of an Albanian Orthodox parish which has a unique way of raising funds. Every year they have an icon auction. The parish has a collection of icons, and they auction off the right to take one home for the year.
This came to be because in Albania, the Turks would regularly come into the churches and steal everything, and demand payment to get their holy things returned.
It was a great fundraiser for the Turks, you see.
But the faithful there and then gladly paid to have their holy icons returned, despite the cost, and despite the fact that they knew it was also a means for the Turks to track who wasn't yet converting to Islam.

I just like a measured approach when discussing religion, it's why rather than sticking to one hadith or verse, and over-analyzing the certain words used and coming up with ridiculous apologetic arguments, I like to look at the big picture first.

So what was the point of my story? It was to point out that my opinion of Islam wasn't great prior to my becoming Orthodox, but the more I find out about the history we have together, the less I think of Islam. And I can assure you that when I hear all these things - things which have nothing at all to do with Trumps demagoguery and which go back all the way to the beginning - the people saying them aren't telling me these things with hatred in their hearts. That would be more taboo for us than anything discussed in this thread so far. They are merely conveyed to remember - to stick to the big picture of our relationship.

 

[Muwahid]

I am not sure why you would try, since Islam has done a fine job at growing its numbers through its traditional "evangelism" method.

My brother-in-law is the priest of an Albanian Orthodox parish which has a unique way of raising funds. Every year they have an icon auction. The parish has a collection of icons, and they auction off the right to take one home for the year.
This came to be because in Albania, the Turks would regularly come into the churches and steal everything, and demand payment to get their holy things returned.
It was a great fundraiser for the Turks, you see.
But the faithful there and then gladly paid to have their holy icons returned, despite the cost, and despite the fact that they knew it was also a means for the Turks to track who wasn't yet converting to Islam.

So what was the point of my story? It was to point out that my opinion of Islam wasn't great prior to my becoming Orthodox, but the more I find out about the history we have together, the less I think of Islam. And I can assure you that when I hear all these things - things which have nothing at all to do with Trumps demagoguery and which go back all the way to the beginning - the people saying them aren't telling me these things with hatred in their hearts. That would be more taboo for us than anything discussed in this thread so far. They are merely conveyed to remember - to stick to the big picture of our relationship.

The Turks committed atrocities under modern secular-leaning regimes, famously after the Young Turks established power in the Ottoman Empire, they blamed the Armenians for their losses against the Soviets. They also had negative views of religion in general. They were not an Islamic ruling party, to put it lightly.

Furthermore the actions of humans concern me far less than the tenets of the religion. Under Islamic land, it was said that pilgrimage for Christians to the holy land of Jerusalem was as safe as a trip from Paris to Rome, and in the over millennium of history of Islamic administration over Jerusalem there are only a few indications in which Christians were treated unfairly, such as under the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim, of course his successor rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and restored the Christians rights to practice as they deemed fit.

My point on reactionary politics is that the alt-right has an overarching theme to their message, namely that progressives hate western civilization and Judeo Christian values and want Muslims to 'invade' the west; to aid their point Islam and Muslims have been 'boogeymanned', and now more than ever are websites like thereligionofpeace, and wikiislam cited as if they're credible sources. We now have a generation of young people who fervently oppose Islam despite never having opened the Qur'an because of their political affiliations.

When we look at Islam—from a broad perspective—I think it's abundantly clear it promotes peace and equality among individuals.

 

[1stvermont]

Thanks for apologizing, even though I don't think you needed to apologize you were not harsh we're just passionate -- and I apologize if I seemed to assume your intent.

I don't expect to be able to convince everyone on every point on Islam, if that was the case I could just simply convert everyone. My real goal is to step away from the fear-mongering which is unfortunately becoming ubiquitous in the age of the alt-right and reactionary politics on the right.

I just like a measured approach when discussing religion, it's why rather than sticking to one hadith or verse, and over-analyzing the certain words used and coming up with ridiculous apologetic arguments, I like to look at the big picture first. I think if people did this they would find Islam was a positive for women, for minorities, for the downtrodden, it encourages charity, and kind treatment of everyone who is not actively against the Muslims, whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim.

Now you may disagree with some of the theistic points, how we view Jesus, or the nature of God. Those are really interesting discussions to have and I encourage that; we've had some nice discussions here and I've learned a lot about Christianity from my friends on this website, and in the end it really made me feel like we're more brethren than we might think.

And I can see you do all those things very well. I want to point out my op is on purpose not fair to islam, it is rather what i see as the worst of islam and the causes to reject it in my view. I agree there is much good in islam as you have pointed out and that there are Christians as you describe that are unfair i agree as well, just as there are muslims who do the same. That is the ugly nature of the beast. I think you are correct in dialogue is the best medicine for bigotry and the like. And i thank you for that. Thank you for your discussion and posts.

 

[Ender]

The Turks committed atrocities under modern secular-leaning regimes, famously after the Young Turks established power in the Ottoman Empire, they blamed the Armenians for their losses against the Soviets. They also had negative views of religion in general. They were not an Islamic ruling party, to put it lightly.

Furthermore the actions of humans concern me far less than the tenets of the religion. Under Islamic land, it was said that pilgrimage for Christians to the holy land of Jerusalem was as safe as a trip from Paris to Rome, and in the over millennium of history of Islamic administration over Jerusalem there are only a few indications in which Christians were treated unfairly, such as under the Fatimid Caliph Al-Hakim, of course his successor rebuilt the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and restored the Christians rights to practice as they deemed fit.

My point on reactionary politics is that the alt-right has an overarching theme to their message, namely that progressives hate western civilization and Judeo Christian values and want Muslims to 'invade' the west; to aid their point Islam and Muslims have been 'boogeymanned', and now more than ever are websites like thereligionofpeace, and wikiislam cited as if they're credible sources. We now have a generation of young people who fervently oppose Islam despite never having opened the Qur'an because of their political affiliations.

When we look at Islam—from a broad perspective—I think it's abundantly clear it promotes peace and equality among individuals.

That's always been my POV.

I have read the Qu'ran, (as well as many other holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutras, etc) and have had to show people who & what the "people of the book" were- and are.

Muslims I have known have been friendly, peaceful people and the baloney spread about Islam is ridiculous.

And, I am a Christian minister.

 

[acptulsa]

I was also just thinking. What do you think I am doing this for? if i truly loved Muslims and they were following a false prophet as i believe they are. Is not the most loving thing to try and show them that? to free them? maybe to put them on a path to truth?

I think you have the best intentions. I think you may also be trying to justify your own dogma. I think Jesus demands of us an open mind, so we will know truth if it is ever kind enough to bite us in the butt.

I also think any prophet can potentially be both a false prophet and a true prophet at the same time. A true prophet leads a soul to God, while a false prophet leads souls away from God. Someone can inadvertently do both; once fame comes to a prophet, people can and do misuse his or her wisdom.

The goal is God. Jesus said He is the Way and the Light. But He is only the goal in the sense of the Trilogy. He is God, and God is the goal. The wisdom of Jesus worked for me, and I recommend the same to anyone. That said, if someone does find God, it isn't my place to tell them they took the wrong road to get to Him.

Is it yours?

 

[1stvermont]

That's always been my POV.

I have read the Qu'ran, (as well as many other holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutras, etc) and have had to show people who & what the "people of the book" were- and are.

Muslims I have known have been friendly, peaceful people and the baloney spread about Islam is ridiculous.

And, I am a Christian minister.

Your much more than a minister, your a Tolkien fan.

 

[1stvermont]

I think you have the best intentions. I think you may also be trying to justify your own dogma. I think Jesus demands of us an open mind, so we will know truth if it is ever kind enough to bite us in the butt.

I also think any prophet can potentially be both a false prophet and a true prophet at the same time. A true prophet leads a soul to God, while a false prophet leads souls away from God. Someone can inadvertently do both; once fame comes to a prophet, people can and do misuse his or her wisdom.

The goal is God. Jesus said He is the Way and the Light. But He is only the goal in the sense of the Trilogy. He is God, and God is the goal. The wisdom of Jesus worked for me, and I recommend the same to anyone. That said, if someone does find God, it isn't my place to tell them they took the wrong road to get to Him.

Is it yours?

I think we are off topic so i shall be fast. I think its gods position to tell them not mine or yours, i think he did so in the bible.

 

[acptulsa]

I agree. If I were pursuing a mission like that, I'd study up on what they believe about Jesus, and see if that helps me be more persuasive.

 

[Ender]

Your much more than a minister, your a Tolkien fan.

And Robert A. Heinlein.

 

[Muwahid]

That's always been my POV.

I have read the Qu'ran, (as well as many other holy books such as the Bhagavad Gita, the Sutras, etc) and have had to show people who & what the "people of the book" were- and are.

Muslims I have known have been friendly, peaceful people and the baloney spread about Islam is ridiculous.

And, I am a Christian minister.

I think the god-fearing do look for the best in other people even of other persuasions because if you're truly god-fearing then you really do want others to believe rather than not believe. It's a dreadful existence to think the majority of my neighbors are destined to hell.

In general I believe nearly all religions are divinely inspired. While I also believe interpolation exists in many texts, I don't believe the underlying message would persist as long as it has without a godly message.

As a Muslim we are told anyone with an atoms weight of faith will make it to heaven (even if they first are punished for evils they've done first). I think this extends to anyone who would believe had they been shown the unadulterated truth and the only people damned are people who truly sold their souls for on this earth.

Plus I think for us in the modern era, believing in God is half the battle when disbelief and apathy is so ubiquitous.

 

[fisharmor]

When we look at Islam—from a broad perspective—I think it's abundantly clear it promotes peace and equality among individuals.

So I take it you are in favor of returning the Hagia Sophia?
Or perhaps something as simple as finally relinquishing the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?
Maybe you're for reform in Saudi Arabia, and improvement of the treatment of Christians there? Or Iran?

From a broad perspective, going all the way back to Mohammed, the exact polar opposite of what you stated is abundantly clear.

 

[Ender]

So I take it you are in favor of returning the Hagia Sophia?
Or perhaps something as simple as finally relinquishing the keys to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre?
Maybe you're for reform in Saudi Arabia, and improvement of the treatment of Christians there? Or Iran?

From a broad perspective, going all the way back to Mohammed, the exact polar opposite of what you stated is abundantly clear.

Hmmmmmm......


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