I dont disagree with what your saying but your logic and conclusions. So if in a pagan society you can kill, torture and rape any woman you like. and islam comes along and says hay, you can only rape and kill not torture, that while better does not conclude islam is god ordained. otherwise feminism and liberalism must be from god as they would improve the condition of woman over islam. [/COLOR]
Islam does not in any shape or form, permit the rape of a woman. Even with your own wife, even though Islam states she must have sex with her husband barring any legitimate excuse (one of the husbands rights), he cannot force her even if we consider it a sin for a wife to withhold sex from her husband needlessly. This is established in the Sharia'ah. I'm not sure if you used that as an example or if that's what you believe.
The actual reality is as I pictured it. Women were inferior, oppressed in their marriages, and it was encouraged to kill your own female babies, it elevated your status to do that. Here's a statement from Umar regarding the difference of spousal treatment:
وكنا معشر قريش نغلب النساء فلما قدمنا على الأنصار إذا قوم تغلبهم نساؤهم ، فطفق نساؤنا يأخذن من أدب نساء الأنصار ، فصخبتُ على امرأتي ( أي : غضبت ) فراجعتني فأنكرتُ أن تراجعني قالت : ولم تنكر أن أراجعك ؟ فو الله إن أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم ليراجعنه
We of the Quraysh used to control our women, and when we came to [Medina] we saw that the Ansar were controlled by their women. Our women began to adopt the ways of their women, so I got angry with my wife and she began arguing with me which I didn't like. She replied, why do you object when the prophet's wives argue with him?
You said "There's nothing really to disagree with. You posted verses I wholly explained" and this is our issue, its an issue of authority. Do we take the plain words of the koran and hadiths, or yours? when you say those verses do not say what they actually say, who do we listen to? that is why your editions to the koran mean nothing to me as the koran is clear on beating their wives. to claim it says [ to hit without pain or with a twig] makes a fool of the verse and its punishments by husbands to woman who disobey. This claim is well refuted in debates see below
Nothing I stated was my opinion. It is from prophetic narration, for example when the Quran said, 'darbuha', the prophet clarified 'ghayr mubri7', which means without pain or malice. The Tafseer which I already quoted explains that:
عطاء قال قلت لابن عباس : ما الضرب غير المبرح ؟ قال السواك
Ata' asked ibn Abbass what that means (i.e., to hit without pain), he responded "like with a siwaak"
Which I've already explained, but Al Hasan Al Basri also explained it means يعني غير مؤثر - without pain. The further explanation for that verse even further illustrates my point, when the prophet forbade any mistreatment of women, the women began mistreating their husbands which they complained about, so this verse came down, and he clarified even more saying:
خَيْرُكُمْ خَيْرُكُمْ لأَهْلِهِ وَأَنَا خَيْرُكُمْ لأَهْلِي
The best of you is the best to your wives, and I'm the best to my wives
And I can keep posting examples, such as in the Qur'an
وَعَاشِرُوهُنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِنْ كَرِهْتُمُوهُنَّ فَعَسَى أَنْ تَكْرَهُوا شَيْئاً وَيَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ خَيْراً كَثِيراً
And live with them honorably, if you dislike them, perhaps you dislike a thing which Allah brings through a great deal of good 4:19
The prophet went on to say about spending money, and emphasizing the treatment of wives
وإنك لن تنفق نفقة إلا أجرت عليها حتى اللقمة ترفعها إلى في امرأتك
And you never spend in the way of good and are not rewarded even if it is simply lifting food into your wife's mouth
He said
اسْتَوْصُوا بِالنِّسَاءِ خَيْرًا
I enjoin the good treatment of women
So again I must ask
how do we reconcile this? The prophet is literally saying treat women good, he's literally saying if you touch them you cannot
hurt them, the Quran is giving wives rights for the first time over their husbands, the prophet is even going so far as to adopt the Jewish customs in Medinah (the wives of the Ansar were Jewish, and it was matriarchal); the prophet famously let his wives argue with him, to a point where many times his companions would want to step in--dismayed he would allow them to talk to him like that, but in reality he was showing how to have a healthy relationship where both sides have a voice.
In no way shape or form, when I have studied Islam from the scriptures, and read it to understand rather than to derive a point, did Islam come off as misogynistic. The overarching message is crystal clear, women are to be respected, treated well, ESPECIALLY because as men we can be a huge detriment to them.
The prophet once said be careful who you accept as a husband for you daughter because marriage is like slavery. At first it's a shocking statement but what he's really saying is, the man has power, so make sure he's a decent, moral man who wouldn't abuse your daughter. He wanted to warn fathers not to allow their daughters to marry bad men.
And I'm supposed to believe Islam is misogynistic? When it tells me as a Muslim to respect the mother 4x more than the father?
يا رسول الله من أحق الناس بحسن صحابتي ؟ قال : أمك ، قال ثم من ؟ قال : أمك ، قال : ثم من ؟ قال : أمك ، قال : ثم من ؟ قال : ثم أبوك
'Oh messenger of God, who is most deserving of my respect?', 'Your mother, your mother, your mother, your mother, then your father'
I'm sorry but that's a bit far fetched for me.
While the Qur'an gives rights of men over women, it likewise gives rights of women over men, children over parents, slaves over their masters, and until that's analyzed you cannot come to any reasonable conclusion.
Also, the hadith that I said was weak was not from Bukhari it was from Abu Dawood and it's weak because one of the narrators in the isnaad is mahjool, he's completely unknown.
Most impressive to post a response to an 8 minute video within 4 minutes of it being posted.
