Will Ron Paul reform the Uniform Military Justice Code?

[dude58677]

Again, I am very sympathetic to your proposal, I just think it would cause too many disruptions.

It's always argued that freedom will result in chaos on all issues.

 

[dude58677]

Unfortunately, there are plenty of officers that aren't dedicated. In fact, I would say the majority I have come across are careerists who aren't particularly concerned with the well-being of their subordinates.

You call them careerists, so they won't quit.

 

[klamath]

If the saw gunners of an infantry squad decide in the middle of a battle that they don't believe in it anymore and walk out and the rest of the squadmembers are killed without that vital component of the unit is the reason why you shouldn't be able to just quit. You sign a contract. If you break a contract in any other line of work there are actions brought against you be it fines or what ever.

 

[ctb619]

You call them careerists, so they won't quit.

careerists in the sense that they are spineless and unwilling to take risks unless it benefits them directly....if the SHTF, some of these guys would undoubtedly bug out

 

[dude58677]

If the saw gunners of an infantry squad decide in the middle of a battle that they don't believe in it anymore and walk out and the rest of the squadmembers are killed without that vital component of the unit is the reason why you shouldn't be able to just quit. You sign a contract. If you break a contract in any other line of work there are actions brought against you be it fines or what ever.

Actually the most necessary fighting is with the citizen militia at home as this is our soil. The fighting overseas is on the offense. The citizen militia is entirely voluntary as you are allowed to leave.

You could argue what if a private security guard quits while a group of Islamic terrorists go in and blow up the building?

Or what if an pilot on an airplane doesn't choose to be armed? Based on your logic, you can make the same kind of argument.

What if a firemen is in a burning building and someone screams for help and he decides to quit? Again by your logic you could make this argument for firemen.

Finally there are situations in the military where you can't quit even if the military permitted it. When I played "Call of Duty 2" my unit was surrounded in a bunker by Germans there was no way that a soldier could have just walked away even if the military allowed it.

But there are resonable times that the military can make arrangmets to wuit such as in boot camp, etc.

 

[pdavis]

This is why we need to have a true national defense, well trained, voluntary state and local militias. That way when we went to war, we would be invaded and everyone would be willing to fight in a defensive constitutional war rather than soldiers deserting the army in offensive, preemptive, unconstitutional wars.

 

[ctb619]

These policies have never been implemented outside of the military because other professions never have sustained combat operations or lengthy, violent and dangerous campaigns in which mass defections are a very real possibility.

 

[klamath]

I got a better idea... How about no more undeclared wars so that "Civillian Contractors" are subject to the UCMJ too???

WARNING: I've thought long and hard about whether or not to post this here, but this is really what we are up against. The following video should not be viewed by anyone. It shows Aegis "Defense Contractors" shooting at (and murdering) unarmed civilians for fun. They were let off SCOTT FREE.

WARNING: GRAPHIC AND TROUBLING; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z0NMKcVHHM
WARNING: GRAPHIC AND TROUBLING; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKmpcHOyIrw

What was going on:

http://faelnarr.gnn.tv/blogs/25032/Military_Contractors_Mercenaries_What_laws_are_they_bound_by

Update: Please thank Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C for updating the law so that they can now be held accountable... About fricking time. Now let's see if anyone actually gets in trouble for this crap.
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/02/2471808

Spent a year there also and that video is no smoking gun. When you are in a convoy in Iraq you have signs in arabic all over your convoy with dire warnings to stay back because any vehicle is a threat that approaches. It is a common tactic to run a vehicle into the middle of a convoy and blow it up. Civilians are all you see and a civilians smiling face in the car next to you maybe the last you see before you are blown to bloody he!!.



I think that everyone should be held accountable though.

 

[ctb619]

This is why we need to have a true national defense, well trained, voluntary state and local militias. That way when we went to war, we would be invaded and everyone would be willing to fight in a defensive constitutional war rather than soldiers deserting the army in offensive, preemptive, unconstitutional wars.

right on

 

[klamath]

Actually the most necessary fighting is with the citizen militia at home as this is our soil. The fighting overseas is on the offense. The citizen militia is entirely voluntary as you are allowed to leave.

You could argue what if a private security guard quits while a group of Islamic terrorists go in and blow up the building?

Or what if an pilot on an airplane doesn't choose to be armed? Based on your logic, you can make the same kind of argument.

What if a firemen is in a burning building and someone screams for help and he decides to quit? Again by your logic you could make this argument for firemen.

Finally there are situations in the military where you can't quit even if the military permitted it. When I played "Call of Duty 2" my unit was surrounded in a bunker by Germans there was no way that a soldier could have just walked away even if the military allowed it.

But there are resonable times that the military can make arrangmets to wuit such as in boot camp, etc.

I think that you would find that in these situations if someone lost their life because they quit at a critical moment the Quitee would be held liable.
There are exceptions that the military makes, such as consciencious objectors. The one I was always very alert to, was making sure it was a lawful order.

 

[dude58677]

This is why we need to have a true national defense, well trained, voluntary state and local militias. That way when we went to war, we would be invaded and everyone would be willing to fight in a defensive constitutional war rather than soldiers deserting the army in offensive, preemptive, unconstitutional wars.

Ok, but don't you think that maybe a recruit should be allowed to quit if they were to get to boot camp and decide the military is not for them?

 

[ctb619]

Ok, but don't you think that maybe a recruit should be allowed to quit if they were to get to boot camp and decide the military is not for them?

This is already allowed...it is called "failure to adapt"

 

[pdavis]

Ok, but don't you think that maybe a recruit should be allowed to quit if they were to get to boot camp and decide the military is not for them?

Yes.

 

[dude58677]

This is already allowed...it is called "failure to adapt"

But thats a "dishonorbale discharge" and the recruit shouldn't have that on their permanment record just because they wanted to leave boot camp.

 

[ctb619]

But thats a "dishonorbale discharge" and the recruit shouldn't have that on their permanment record just because they wanted to leave boot camp.

not it is not...."failure to adapt" results in a General Discharge

 

[dude58677]

not it is not...."failure to adapt" results in a General Discharge

Still they should go through the intense misery of a drill srgt. before they are out? And it will get very hard esp if they see you are failing to adapt on purpose, they might even see this as wilfully disobeying an officer which will result in punishment of some sort.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/getout_2.htm

Getting Out

As I said, one cannot simply quit the military. The military services can certainly kick you out, if you fail to measure up to their standards (see Administrative Discharge article), but that way is usually neither fast, nor is it pleasant. In most cases, the commander must show "rehabilitative measures" before they can impose an involuntary discharge, and that can mean Article 15 (loss of stripes, loss of pay, restrictions, correctional custody -- i.e., "jail"), before the commander finally gets fed up and kicks you out.

 

[ctb619]

Still they should go through the intense misery of a drill sargent before they are out? And it will get very hard esp if they see you are failing to adapt on purpose, they might even see this as wilfully disobeying an officer which will result in punishment of some sort.

"intense misery of a drill sergeant"? In my experience, if they see a recruit that is not willing to comply with the program, they will transfer the recruit to another unit pending the completion of the out-processing paperwork. He or she will perform some menial duties for several weeks until given the paperwork, but it's far from traumatic.

 

[foofighter20x]

I refuse to join the military because you can't quit.

Oh... you can quit.

One way is to just stop bathing.

 

[dude58677]

"intense misery of a drill sergeant"? In my experience, if they see a recruit that is not willing to comply with the program, they will transfer the recruit to another unit pending the completion of the out-processing paperwork. He or she will perform some menial duties for several weeks until given the paperwork, but it's far from traumatic.

If they see it as deliberate which it is, they will see it as "willfully disobeying and officer" and they could go to military jail.

 

[ctb619]

If they see it as deliberate which it is, they will see it as "willfully disobeying and officer" and they could go to military jail.

I'm not saying this never happens, but it is extremely rare if it does. What almost always happens is the process I already described. But I have zero respect for people who drop out during Basic Combat Training because they get their feelings hurt by a drill sergeant. They know what they are getting into, the training is supposed to be difficult and demanding.