Will Ron Paul reform the Uniform Military Justice Code?

[austin356]

The military has a right to contract just like anyone else. When you sign up for service you sign a contract and if you breach that contract there are penalties.

This is completely different than a draft military cause its based on contracts and voluntarism.


Now I believe the military has the right to handle things as they do, though I would be open to such changes if it was an individual who was no "in or preparing for" battle. So if a troop stationed in Germany wants to negotiate a early leave then I dont really have a problem with that; though it would be a military matter and I dont claim to know if that would be good/bad to have such policy.

 

[dude58677]

If we sent 50,000 troops to Afghanistan for a few years and gave them the discretion to quit and go home when it suited them, we'd have a big problem. Thousands would leave, it would affect unit morale, operational readiness, and our ability to accomplish the mission.

I see where you're going with the argument, and I can sympathize with it, but I just don't think it is practical for an army that is sent abroad to carry out our foreign policy objectives.

If they are touched by what happened on 9-11 then they would want to stay in Afghanistan to hunt Osama. They won't leave.

 

[dude58677]

The military has a right to contract just like anyone else. When you sign up for service you sign a contract and if you breach that contract there are penalties.

This is completely different than a draft military cause its based on contracts and voluntarism.

But the contract is based on deception from military recruiters, so it isn't a valid contract.

 

[ctb619]

If they are touched by what happened on 9-11 then they would want to stay in Afghanistan to hunt Osama. They won't leave.

Those who truly believe in the mission won't leave, I agree. But there are thousands who join just for the college benefits, bonuses, nothing else to do, worked out a deal with the judge etc. These are the people you have to worry about.

 

[austin356]

But the contract is based on deception from military recruiters, so it isn't a valid contract.

Then let troops file lawsuits stating that they were purposefully deceived into signing contracts thus nullifying the contract.

I was never deceived by recruiters, hell they leave you alone for the most part unless you go to them.

 

[skiingff]

They will NOT quit if THERE IS A JUST CAUSE. It's like a citizen milita overseas.

1. That's NOT true
2. We are not policy-makers, we do NOT determine just or not... we are soldiers

Now, what we need is a commander-in-chief who doesn't use us and then we get back from war and then they cut our benefits. I'm sorry, but giving each soldier the option to drop in and out of war as they please is ludicrous.

If you join, you already know the rules of the game. If you don't want to join, fine. The military is just fine either way. But if you sign the contract, then abide by that contract. Or else DON'T SIGN IT. If it says you can't quit, then you can't quit. Liberty also includes responsibility. Don't sign something you don't intend to abide by.

In the end, 99% of the military will disagree with you, because the military goes through things that are different than what the civilians go thru and we understand how discipline/unit COHESION works. Say our unit S-2 intelligence officer just QUITS in the middle of a WAR... what the fuck are we s'posed to do? How do we get our tactical intel?

Each solider is trained in a different MOS and has different sets of skills, knowledge & abilities. You can't take the person that provides ammo to the soldiers out of the equation and still fight a war. You can't take out the intelligence, the cook, the MPs, the admin staff, etc and still be equipped and prepared to fight.

 

[ctb619]

Say our unit S-2 intelligence officer just QUITS in the middle of a WAR... what the fuck are we s'posed to do? How do we get our tactical intel?

yep

 

[Electrostatic]

I got a better idea... How about no more undeclared wars so that "Civillian Contractors" are subject to the UCMJ too???

WARNING: I've thought long and hard about whether or not to post this here, but this is really what we are up against. The following video should not be viewed by anyone. It shows Aegis "Defense Contractors" shooting at (and murdering) unarmed civilians for fun. They were let off SCOTT FREE.

WARNING: GRAPHIC AND TROUBLING; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z0NMKcVHHM
WARNING: GRAPHIC AND TROUBLING; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKmpcHOyIrw

What was going on:

http://faelnarr.gnn.tv/blogs/25032/Military_Contractors_Mercenaries_What_laws_are_they_bound_by

Update: Please thank Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C for updating the law so that they can now be held accountable... About fricking time. Now let's see if anyone actually gets in trouble for this crap.
http://www.armedforcesjournal.com/2007/02/2471808

 

[ctb619]

It shows Aegis "Defense Contractors" shooting at (and murdering) unarmed civilians for fun. They were let off SCOTT FREE.

What makes you think these guys were shooting at those vehicles "for fun"?

 

[dude58677]

Then let troops file lawsuits stating that they were purposefully deceived into signing contracts thus nullifying the contract.

I was never deceived by recruiters, hell they leave you alone for the most part unless you go to them.

One recruiter from the Marines did not, he called me several times in a row when I told him I wasn't interested. They have quotas to fill and will do anything to get somone recruited. The CCCO often gets stories like these all the time. There is also a movement to kick recruiters off of colege campuses. And getting a lawyer and suing the government near impossible esp when you are in the military. You know how hard it is to sue the federal government and take the case to the Supreme Court.

 

[Electrostatic]

What makes you think these guys were shooting at those vehicles "for fun"?

Besides the fact that they added the fricking Elvis soundtrack to it themselves?

 

[ctb619]

Assuming the shooters truly made those videos, adding a funny song to a video of gruesome events doesn't necessarily mean they engaged those vehicles "for fun"

(I'm not condoning the tactics, I am just not convinced they were malicious)

 

[Electrostatic]

Hopefully you haven't actually watched the videos then, because it is somewhat obvious.

(The people were under no threat whatsoever. They were shooting at random cars.)

 

[dude58677]

1. That's NOT true
2. We are not policy-makers, we do NOT determine just or not... we are soldiers

Now, what we need is a commander-in-chief who doesn't use us and then we get back from war and then they cut our benefits. I'm sorry, but giving each soldier the option to drop in and out of war as they please is ludicrous.

If you join, you already know the rules of the game. If you don't want to join, fine. The military is just fine either way. But if you sign the contract, then abide by that contract. Or else DON'T SIGN IT. If it says you can't quit, then you can't quit. Liberty also includes responsibility. Don't sign something you don't intend to abide by.

In the end, 99% of the military will disagree with you, because the military goes through things that are different than what the civilians go thru and we understand how discipline/unit COHESION works. Say our unit S-2 intelligence officer just QUITS in the middle of a WAR... what the fuck are we s'posed to do? How do we get our tactical intel?

Each solider is trained in a different MOS and has different sets of skills, knowledge & abilities. You can't take the person that provides ammo to the soldiers out of the equation and still fight a war. You can't take out the intelligence, the cook, the MPs, the admin staff, etc and still be equipped and prepared to fight.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are soliders who are missing in action and have a fear of showing their face because they will be falsely accused of AWOL.

Two, it is very unlikely an officer would quit in the middile of the war. Officers enjoy what they are doing as they are dedicated to become officers in the first place.

 

[ctb619]

I spent a year in that country....car bombs are fairly common, and when vehicles approach your convoy from the rear like that it is a major security breakdown...these things aren't black and white

 

[dude58677]

To the ones in the military, please don't think I am bashing you as soldiers. All I am saying is that you should have more options in the military.

 

[ctb619]

Officers enjoy what they are doing as they are dedicated to become officers in the first place.

That is a generalization....If only 5% of the officers aren't fully dedicated and decide to quite when the SHTF (I'm being conservative here) than we've got a serious problem.

 

[ctb619]

To the ones in the military, please don't think I am bashing you as soldiers. All I am saying is that you should have more options in the military.

Again, I am very sympathetic to your proposal, I just think it would cause too many disruptions.

 

[dude58677]

That is a generalization....If only 5% of the officers aren't fully dedicated and decide to quite when the SHTF (I'm being conservative here) than we've got a serious problem.

They wouldn't be officers if they weren't dedicated.

 

[ctb619]

They wouldn't be officers if they weren't dedicated.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of officers that aren't dedicated. In fact, I would say the majority I have come across are careerists who aren't particularly concerned with the well-being of their subordinates.