Will a Jeff Flake Victory help the Liberty Movement?

Flake will be very helpful in many areas..definitely one of the better one's running. A mixed record on civil liberties to be sure.

Mixed? Has he ever done anything good on civil liberties?

I disagree about him being one of the best.

Please spell out to me an acceptable rationale for voting FOR imposing indefinite detention on American citizens without trial?
 
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And you are of course entitled to your opinion. Like I said though, he is getting some decent support from folks who support many of the same candidates others here do like Bills, Cruz, Massie, Amash, et al.

And that is fine, Tbone. I wish him well. But, the fact is that we have other candidates who do fit the bill and with our limited resources, it makes sense for us to support THEM. If you want to support Flake, power to you. I'd rather he win than his competition, but that's all I can say.

The point being there is a lot of liberty-minded political activism going on that doesn't center here at RPF or DP. The folks here are just one small segment of a much larger movement, so people should not be surprised when there are candidates like Flake that get support from groups that will also support Cruz, Massie, etc.
Sorry, but you cannot co-opt what we believe, tbone, just by using the term "liberty-minded".

We can work together with others and most of us will, but that does not change what we stand for. I can only speak for myself, but any money I donate will not go to anyone who supports NDAA, the Patriot Act, or a foreign policy of interventionism.
 
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The problem is that we have been spoiled by Ron Paul. The truth is that there would probably never be any representative like Ron in our life time. But that is no excuse to fall for unprincipled men like Flake. You say he is a fiscal conservative right? lets see how hard he fights to prevent 1c cut from the defense budget or cut in aid for Israel. These people are still playing games and if they continue with these games more Americans would be kept asleep from the realities of Washington.

I am willing to make compromises, to meet politicians half way but I also have a line I will not cross and fighting new wars be it Syria, Iran or Kony, balanced budget plan and NDAA is just the 3 that I will never cross. Maybe hes not to keen on ending the fed(am sure Flake has no idea what it is), that's ok as long as he wants to balance the budget soon

forgot to add the most beautiful and awe inspiring Ron Paul video ever

 
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I would certainly vote for Flake over his opponent if I lived in Arizona, but like others have mentioned, there's enough problems with his voting record that I wouldn't actually donate money to him. I'm usually pretty picky in who I donate money to.
 
Voting YAY! on the NDAA is unforgivable. I'll be voting for Victor.

Oooook. Well, the rest of us are busy trying to reform the GOP. So assuming you're registered as a Republican or Independent, if you could vote for Flake on primary election day, that would be great.

Because once the general election is over, it would be better having Senator Jeff Flake than Senator Wil Cardon.
 
Because once the general election is over, it would be better having Senator Jeff Flake than Senator Wil Cardon.

And that is exactly how we keep getting stuck with one lying SOB or the other.

Put the money into and effort behind defeating BOTH parties.
 
If Flake supports NDAA and the Patriot Act, he is a traitorous POS. Therefore, a horrible investment.

Way back as I recall, he used to be half-way decent, but apparently, he wet his diapers after 9-11.

With all due respect, I think you're out of your mind. Yes Flake made a couple bad votes. But other than that, he is arguably the #2 libertarian in the entire fucking Congress over the 2000's decade. You seem so obsessed with his 2 bad votes, do you have any idea how often he cast good votes?

Try this: Name a Republican member of Congress who served during all 8 Bush years who voted against Bush spending MORE than Jeff Flake. Oh, and his last name can't be Paul. Can you think of anyone? I didn't think so.

In 2012, how many god damn 100% pure candidates are going to be elected to Congress? 1? 2? At that rate, all our great grandkids will be dead before we have enough liberty congressmen to establish a small caucus! If you really can't handle someone who is with us 90 or 95% of the time... in fact, if you call a 90% friend "horrible"... then you better get used to living with no freedoms and no chances of changing that.
 
fiscally conservative isn't a liberty candidate in itself, and I see nothing else to recommend him.

It is each person's own decision, but I think where we NEED funding is where the arbitrary left/right paradigm misses, where you have candidates that are BOTH fiscally conservative AND oppose the police state, for example, giving them no 'lobbiest base'. Those people are speaking for me, at least. Not those wholly on the partisan right or the partisan left.

If we spend our resources on run of the mill Club for Growth candidates, we will lose the ability to get actual liberty candidates elected. And candidates will have little incentive to BE actual liberty candidates.

The problem is that 100% pure candidates aren't running in GOP districts or states. And most of the ones that did had zero support and lost their primaries. At this point in the campaign season, there are fewer and fewer candidates to support. Why would anyone want to donate to people like Bills, Hamlin, or Robinson when they're just going to lose their races in super-blue districts? The way I see it is, I could either flush my money down the toilet with Kurt Bills, then potentially be stuck with Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Wil Cardon (no freedom) or I could support Jeff Flake and be stuck with Sens. Jeff Flake and Amy Klobuchar (partial freedom).

Also, don't kid yourself. Kurt Bills isn't a strong candidate. When do you ever see State Representatives run successfully for US Senate? If Bills were a current congressman or Minnesota secretary of state, I think he'd be in much better shape to take on Klobuchar.

But I don't mean to say Bills is a complete waste. There's still plenty of time for money to enter that race and make it competitive.
 
Apparently we have a entire bloc of Paul people now ready to concede to anyone voting mildly for liberty. What a god damn joke. Call me a purist but liberty takes time, and will take a lot more when your willing to get three steps forward only to take four steps back when you give these people the power. FLAKE IS HAS AND WILL ALWAYS BE A PAWN.

“This election will be an important moment in our nation’s history,” said Congressman Flake. “The next president will be charged with reversing the failed policies of the last three years and making sure the future is as bright for our children as it was for the generations before them. Mitt Romney has the experience and vision to get our country on the right path again. Whether it was his time as governor or as a successful businessman, Mitt Romney has shown that he has the economic knowledge to create the environment for businesses to start hiring again.”

Yeah.... Wooo. Wait, WUT.

A Pawn? Really? For who exactly? Flake voted against Obama policies and Bush policies. He's more independent than Bernie Sanders.
 
Maybe because we think as individuals and not everyone feels that there is a 10 point checklist that every candidate has to pass with flying colors before being worthy of support. Of course, the more folks here denigrate those who differ in opinions, the less and less folks you will have here to exchange ideas. Eventually, if you choose to go in that direction, you may end up with a nice little group that agrees on everything all the time.

I can't give this guy enough +rep!
 
Voting to make the Patriot Act permanent and for the NDAA nullifies the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th. Pretty low bar some liberty types have.
 
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Mixed? Has he ever done anything good on civil liberties?

He isn't the best candidate on civil liberties, I admit. He has made some pretty bad votes in that regard. However, I will point out some good points.

Here are amendments he offered for the PATRIOT act:

The first amendment requires the Director of the FBI to personally approve any FBI request for library or bookstore records under the section of the bill that allows the FBI to obtain such records. Another amendment more explicitly defines domestic terrorism under the section regarding the seizing of assets, changing the “domestic terrorism” definition to "federal crimes of terrorism."

An additional amendment precludes judges from preventing someone from receiving notification about a home search by the government simply because it would delay a trial to notify the target.

The last amendment allows recipients of national security letters to be able to consult with an attorney, and also allows them to also challenge national security letters in court.

......

Congressman Flake worked with other members of the House Judiciary Committee in 2001 to add sunset provisions to the more controversial portions of the PATRIOT Act, encouraging law enforcement officials to use the new power prudently and giving Congress a chance to monitor the law’s use. A ten-year sunset provision has been added to this bill.

He did vote against creating the DHS and against warrant less searches. BTW, He actually did vote against the NDAA, but did vote against the Amash-Smith amendment. He voted for the repeal of DODT which would be considered a civil liberties victory; even though I would have kept the policy personally.

He is also a leader against the War on Drugs:

Flake adopted the Republican Liberty Caucus Position Statement:

As adopted by the General Membership of the Republican Liberty Caucus at its Biannual Meeting held December 8, 2000.
WHEREAS libertarian Republicans believe in limited government, individual freedom and personal responsibility;
WHEREAS we believe that government has no money nor power not derived from the consent of the people;
WHEREAS we believe that people have the right to keep the fruits of their labor; and
WHEREAS we believe in upholding the US Constitution as the supreme law of the land;

BE IT RESOLVED that the Republican Liberty Caucus endorses the following [among its] principles:
While recognizing the harm that drug abuse causes society, we also recognize that government drug policy has been ineffective and has led to frightening abuses of the Bill of Rights which could affect the personal freedom of any American. We, therefore, support alternatives to the War on Drugs.
Per the tenth amendment to the US Constitution, matters such as drugs should be handled at the state or personal level.
All laws which give license to violate the Bill of Rights should be repealed.

On foreign policy, he is not perfect but is better than most people. Voted for Iraq but later opposed it. Opposes sanctions against Iran and Cuba. Also wants to defund U.N.

I appreciate that Flake votes against foreign aid, even to Israel.

The reason Jeff Flake is going to be helpful is because he is a workhorse. Most people in Congress fiddle around, but people like Flake and Paul Broun are constantly adding amendments to bills that eliminates federal activity in the specified area.

He will also immediately be maybe the strongest fiscal conservative in the Senate, along with the trio of Rand, DeMint, and Lee.
 
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With all due respect, I think you're out of your mind. Yes Flake made a couple bad votes. But other than that, he is arguably the #2 libertarian in the entire fucking Congress over the 2000's decade. You seem so obsessed with his 2 bad votes, do you have any idea how often he cast good votes?

Try this: Name a Republican member of Congress who served during all 8 Bush years who voted against Bush spending MORE than Jeff Flake. Oh, and his last name can't be Paul. Can you think of anyone? I didn't think so.

In 2012, how many god damn 100% pure candidates are going to be elected to Congress? 1? 2? At that rate, all our great grandkids will be dead before we have enough liberty congressmen to establish a small caucus! If you really can't handle someone who is with us 90 or 95% of the time... in fact, if you call a 90% friend "horrible"... then you better get used to living with no freedoms and no chances of changing that.

Frankly, I don't give a damn. If he supports trampling the Constitution in such horrible ways through his votes for NDAA and the Patriot Act, he is not a liberty-candidate. He is pretty good on fiscal issues, but that is where it ends. I will not donate my money to someone like this. If you want to, fine. My limited funds will go to someone who doesn't support the government assassinating U.S. citizens, or picking them up and throwing them in a prison camp with no due process of law. If you call someone supporting that, supporting "freedom", then sir, I don't think you know what that term even means.
 
I want everyone to vote for Flake, but I see no reason why anyone needs to back him with monetary support.

He is going to win the primary and general, so don't worry about it. As for Bills, as some have mentioned I have trouble seeing him winning, as bad as it hurts me to say. Therefore I believe the focus should be on Brunner and Hovde.
 
Georgia, what do you mean "he is a leader on the War on Drugs"?

Also, I keep hearing contradicting things. Did he or didn't he vote for the NDAA?
 
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