Why do we care about Russia invading Georgia?

[Agent Chameleon]

Well, the proper liberty understanding is that the individuals are sovereign, and not Georgia itself. Georgia as a nation receives it's sovereignty from the consent of it's sovereign inhabitants. The South Ossetians have, apparently, overwhelmingly withdrawn that sovereignty from Georgia.

I fully believe in the right of a people to withdraw themselves and their lands from any nation. The South Ossetians would be completely justified, in my opinion, to fight the Georgian attempt to subsume their land and persons back into the Georgian state.

Russia's position is an interventionary one in some respects, but it is an intervention that is strongly supported by the sovereign individuals involved. South Ossetian resistance is fully justified and they have accepted Russia as the military champion of their cause.

Most Iraqis didn't want to be governed by Saddam either. Does that mean we had a right to march in there?

And I believe that nations are sovereign just like the US is sovereign. If Mexico started giving passports to people in the Southwest I'd be very angry about that.

And I'm skeptical of the claim that 95% of South Ossetians want to secede, considering that 1/3 of the region is Georgian, and only 2/3 have these "Russian passports". It almost mirrors the 98% vote for Kosovo that we helped agitate.

I can't help but feel this is Russian payback for Kosovo. It's almost a mirror image.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

How about you pro-Bush people please stop going to war with the world? Would you prefer Bush ball sucker? Pulleeze

How the hell am I pro-Bush?

You don't even know what you're talking about.

Why are all the pro-Russia people except hypanogue so irrational and emotional about this subject?

 

[forsmant]

Well, the proper liberty understanding is that the individuals are sovereign, and not Georgia itself. Georgia as a nation receives it's sovereignty from the consent of it's sovereign inhabitants. The South Ossetians have, apparently, overwhelmingly withdrawn that sovereignty from Georgia.

I fully believe in the right of a people to withdraw themselves and their lands from any nation. The South Ossetians would be completely justified, in my opinion, to fight the Georgian attempt to subsume their land and persons back into the Georgian state.

Russia's position is an interventionary one in some respects, but it is an intervention that is strongly supported by the sovereign individuals involved. South Ossetian resistance is fully justified and they have accepted Russia as the military champion of their cause.

I do not support Russia's attempt at intervention any less than my opposition to America's interventions.

 

[DAFTEK]

I would call them collectivist scum. I will never side with a collectivist regardless of country of origin. Your insulting manner is sophomoric. It is clear to me that there are disputes going on...its called war. Whoever wins will decide the fate of the others.

So why wont you call George Bush collective scum? Calling a nation scum doesn't make you any better then them and my insulting manners are unclear to you,,,, Its called genocide not war

 

[Agent Chameleon]

So why wont you call George Bush collective scum? Calling a nation scum doesn't make you any better then them and my insulting manners are unclear to you,,,, Its called genocide not war

Was Chechnya genocide? What gives Russia the moral high ground when they themselves are guilty of recent massacres. It's like claiming that Stalin had the moral high ground because of the Holocaust.

 

[dannno]

Could you pro-Russia people please stop being so hysterical. Bush ball licker? Pulleeze.

Uhh, were you aware that McCain's top foreign policy adviser is a lobbyist for Georgia??


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=150046&highlight=Whoa


What we are attempting to communicate to you is that NATO/Neocon/Western influence is what enabled Georgia to attack South Ossetia.

If you want to say that Russia shouldn't get involved, then you should also be willing to concede that NATO/Neocon/Western influence should not have been involved in the first place. Then Russia wouldn't need to get involved, and the people of South Ossetia could have their independence.

 

[forsmant]

So why wont you call George Bush collective scum? Calling a nation scum doesn't make you any better then them and my insulting manners are unclear to you,,,, Its called genocide not war

I did call Bush Scum. You asked what I would Call Bush, McCain or Obama. Do you remember that? You must have trouble with your reading comprehension.

There is nothing I can do but condemn both sides feeble attempts to control populations through military force. I am against the war, genocide, regardless of who is committing the atrocious acts. Whether they be Georgia, Russia, or the United States.

 

[DAFTEK]

How the hell am I pro-Bush?

You don't even know what you're talking about.

Why are all the pro-Russia people except hypanogue so irrational and emotional about this subject?

Because the president of the US has his dirty hands in this mess, I'm not pro anything, if anything I'm pro our government shutting the fuk up and let the Russians deal with the puppet Kaskaval put in power by Bush&co! Your not seeing the picture like some others on here.

 

[forsmant]

Uhh, were you aware that McCain's top foreign policy adviser is a lobbyist for Georgia??


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=150046&highlight=Whoa


What we are attempting to communicate to you is that NATO/Neocon/Western influence is what enabled Georgia to attack South Ossetia.

If you want to say that Russia shouldn't get involved, then you should also be willing to concede that NATO/Neocon/Western influence should not have been involved in the first place. Then Russia wouldn't need to get involved, and the people of South Ossetia could have their independence.

That would be My position. The Collectivists have started another war.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

Uhh, were you aware that McCain's top foreign policy adviser is a lobbyist for Georgia??


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=150046&highlight=Whoa


What we are attempting to communicate to you is that NATO/Neocon/Western influence is what enabled Georgia to attack South Ossetia.

If you want to say that Russia shouldn't get involved, then you should also be willing to concede that NATO/Neocon/Western influence should not have been involved in the first place. Then Russia wouldn't need to get involved, and the people of South Ossetia could have their independence.

I don't support Western interference. I favor getting out of NATO entirely.

That being said, just because some McCainiacs agree with something doesn't make it bad. Neocons support Israel. I support Israel. Does that mean I'm a neocon? No.

I favor complete non-intervention in this affair. That being said, I also respect Georgia's attempt to keep Russia out of Georgia. I find the claim that this conflict is the West's fault dubious since Russia has been butting its nose in the affairs of ex-Soviet Republics. Besides Georgia, there's Ukraine, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Kirghistan, etc.

 

[dannno]

Most Iraqis didn't want to be governed by Saddam either. Does that mean we had a right to march in there?

If there were thousands of Americans living in Iraq who were dying from Iraq's tyrannical government, the Iraqis wanted us to free them and the US congress declared war against Iraq... then and only then, yes.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

Because the president of the US has his dirty hands in this mess, I'm not pro anything, if anything I'm pro our government shutting the fuk up and let the Russians deal with the puppet Kaskaval put in power by Bush&co! Your not seeing the picture like some others on here.

I don't disagree with the notion that U.S. has dirty fingerprints in Georgia. But I don't agree that gives Russia the right to invade.

I am looking at the big picture. I'd like both the U.S. AND Russia to stay out of Georgia's business.

Oh and it's not a good idea to paint someone as the enemy just because you disagree with one thing. Our movement can't grow if people like you label me or others as Bush-supporters just because we don't like something Russia is doing.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

If there were thousands of Americans dying in Iraq, the Iraqis wanted us to free them and the US congress declared war against Iraq... then and only then, yes.

The neocons have been claiming thats true. Plus they insisted that the Iraqis were behind 9/11.

That turned out to be false. How can we trust any of Russia's propaganda to be true?

 

[dannno]

The neocons have been claiming thats true. Plus they insisted that the Iraqis were behind 9/11.

That turned out to be false. How can we trust any of Russia's propaganda to be true?

Because we have verified that our media got it completely ass backwards. I don't doubt that Russia had some propaganda out there, but from what I saw and read about the incident, it is pretty clear that the propaganda machine was pumping our side much harder.

 

[DAFTEK]

I don't disagree with the notion that U.S. has dirty fingerprints in Georgia. But I don't agree that gives Russia the right to invade.

I am looking at the big picture. I'd like both the U.S. AND Russia to stay out of Georgia's business.

Oh and it's not a good idea to paint someone as the enemy just because you disagree with one thing. Our movement can't grow if people like you label me or others as Bush-supporters just because we don't like something Russia is doing.

Well when Mr Kaskaval murdered over 1600+ South Ossetian people would you have preferred if the Russians sat back? I guess so since you are pro Israel and yeah that would make you a neocon since they also have their dirty hands in this war NQFTAGA

 

[hypnagogue]

Most Iraqis didn't want to be governed by Saddam either. Does that mean we had a right to march in there?

And I believe that nations are sovereign just like the US is sovereign. If Mexico started giving passports to people in the Southwest I'd be very angry about that.

And I'm skeptical of the claim that 95% of South Ossetians want to secede, considering that 1/3 of the region is Georgian, and only 2/3 have these "Russian passports". It almost mirrors the 98% vote for Kosovo that we helped agitate.

I can't help but feel this is Russian payback for Kosovo. It's almost a mirror image.

The situations are not analogous. No part of Iraq had held a referendum and voted to secede from Saddam's governance.

In fact there are significant parallels to the Mexican-American War which followed the US annexation of Texas following that territory's unrecognized break from Mexico.

Can we forget that it is widely believed that the American Revolution would have failed were it not for the, admittedly cynical, aid of the French?

I also have to strongly disagree with your assertion that nations are sovereign apart from their inhabitants. Nations may only wield the sovereignty of their consenting citizens. They possess no innate sovereignty.

 

[DAFTEK]

The neocons have been claiming thats true. Plus they insisted that the Iraqis were behind 9/11.

That turned out to be false. How can we trust any of Russia's propaganda to be true?

Your smoking something or you get your news from planet neocon haha

 

[Agent Chameleon]

Well when Mr Kaskaval murdered over 1600+ South Ossetian people would you have preferred if the Russians sat back? I guess so since you are pro Israel and yeah that would make you a neocon since they also have their dirty hands in this war NQFTAGA

How does that make me neoconservative? Do you even know what neoconservatism is?

And I don't believe that Georgia murdered that many people.

How do you know that South Ossetians weren't attacking Georgians? It could be true, we can't tell, since there's so much propaganda on this subject.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

The situations are not analogous. No part of Iraq had held a referendum and voted to secede from Saddam's governance.

In fact there are significant parallels to the Mexican-American War which followed the US annexation of Texas following that territory's unrecognized break from Mexico.

Can we forget that it is widely believed that the American Revolution would have failed were it not for the, admittedly cynical, aid of the French?

I also have to strongly disagree with your assertion that nations are sovereign apart from their inhabitants. Nations may only wield the sovereignty of their consenting citizens. They possess no innate sovereignty.

Well we are at an impasse because I believe in the sovereignty of nations. The US is a sovereign nation even if some US citizens don't think so.

But I will say that there are similarities between Iraq and Georgia because even though there were no referendums (why would there be it was a dictatorship), Iraqis clearly expressed anger with the Iraqi regime. There were revolts, and the Shiite majority felt oppressed. And don't forget all the celebrating of the death of Saddam with the exception of some Sunnis.

And if I was french I wouldn't favor intervention in America. ;p

 

[Agent Chameleon]

Your smoking something or you get your news from planet neocon haha

Wow you are a shining paragon of maturity on this forum.

Please don't get involved in the revolution until you have gained more age and wisdom.