Why Did God Issue A Stronger Penalty For Eating Meat Than For Murder?

How is it that an uneducated (HS dropout) ex-con ,, can agree with you on so much concerning Christ and salvation,, and only disagree on small interpretations/ minor parts.


it would certainly,,not be of any of my doing.

and I do believe from your posting that you have been professionally educated in such. I have not.
my "seminary" was different. ;)

Since I have a great deal of respect for both you, my guess would be that both you and TER have arrived at the truth of the matter, or at least, very close to it.
 
God, by His great mercy and holy dispensation, has allowed the use of things in creation, such as the animals and plants, for the sustenance and survival of man.

You’re skipping over the most important part, God’s original design and plan for mankind, which was peace, non-violence, and a plant-based diet, as stated in Genesis 1:29-30.

Yes, later God permitted meat eating, because after the flood, all the vegetation was destroyed. And when God did give permission, it came with strict parameters. Keep in mind, flesh eating was not God’s original plan, in fact, as a couple others have pointed out, there is evidence that flesh eating was taught to man by fallen angels… you know, the ones who rebelled against God.

You mentioned the word survival. I’m glad you brought that up, because another important thing to keep in mind is that unlike a period of time after the flood — now, in today’s world — we do not need to eat animals to survive. In fact, eating animals now is doing the exact opposite, it is making us sick, it is doing harm to not only the animals, but to ourselves and this world that was entrusted to us.

People eat animals for the same reason that people do anything that does not please God… because we are living in a fallen world. We know that in the end, the peace and harmony that existed in the beginning, which is God's will - will be restored. (Isaiah 11). Since that is God’s heart, and since we’re going in that direction (whether people like it or not) why go against that now? For our tastebuds? We are told to not be ruled by our stomach or our flesh… but by the Spirit of God… which is a spirit of life, not of death.

The bible says that the thief comes to kill, steal and destroy. God is about LIFE, love and mercy.


Indeed, one of the first acts He accomplished after Adam and Eve fell from grace and were cast out of the Garden, was to give them tunics of skins to cover themselves with, demonstrating that in this fallen world, sacrifice is acceptable, as long as it is done respectfully and in thanksgiving.


In today’s world, eating animals is not an act of 'sacrifice.' Quite the opposite, it is done for our own personal desire, to satisfy our tastebuds, and because of habit/tradition. No other reason.


It was indeed Abel's offering of livestock which He valued above Cain's roots and vegetables.


TER, if you think that God values livestock over fruits and vegetables and that’s why He accepted Abel's offering over Cain’s, then I’m sorry but I think that's a shallow and misguided interpretation.

God cares about our heart. (1 Samuel 16:7) Remember the old woman who gave a few coins, which was less than other people gave, but it was nearly all that she had? She obviously put God first, she had her heart in the right place… she gave by faith, just as Abel did.

The value of the gift does not lie in the gift itself, but the heart of the person giving it. Cain had a sinful, unrepentant heart, and he probably gave his gift halfheartedly, which God does not want from us.

See the scriptures below. I added the bold.


"For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite hear
t—
These, O God, You will not despise."

Psalm 51:16-17



"For I desire mercy and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."


Hosea 6:6



“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.


“When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this from your hand,
To trample My courts?

Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.

When you spread out your hands,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you make many prayers,
I will not hear.

Your hands are full of blood.
“Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Put away the evil of your doings from before My eyes.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Rebuke the oppressor;
Defend the fatherless,
Plead for the widow.


Isaiah 1:11-17

God loves all of His creatures and all of His creation, but none greater than man, who was made in His image and likeness. Indeed, He made all of creation for man, so that man may be stewards over it and share in it with God.


Genesis 1 makes it clear that God did not make animals for us to eat, abuse or exploit.

Dominion does not mean that we can do whatever we want. But more on that another time.


God loves the beasts and the birds and everything which He has fashioned, but none more than His very children. "For don't you know you are worth more than many sparrows?"

And it is our nature to which the Word of God united with His divine nature, so that creation might be renewed and transfigured into the Kingdom of Heaven. It is mankind who God has bestowed the grace of sonship and heir.

Thus, God allows animals and plants to be used by man for food and protection.

Again you are ignoring God’s original design. Not to mention very important principles like mercy, love, and caring about those who are vulnerable and voiceless. Do you think God has no problem with His creation being horribly abused, tortured and treated like garbage? (quite literally)

I70aYt.gif



Of course, the heavenly way is one without meat and the death of animals, for this is the life in the Kingdom which we aspire to and hope for, where the wolf will sit with the lamb. This is the holier and more angelic way.

There are differing opinions on eschatology, of course, but most bible scholars teach that the peaceful kingdom you alluded to (where the wolf will sit with the lamb) is not heaven, but the Messianic Kingdom on earth, during the Millennium…. which, btw, may be coming a lot sooner than we think. :)

But whether it is the millennium or heaven, the fact remains that we (as Christians) should want what God wants. In fact, Jesus taught us to pray for just that...

Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.



Are we reciting that prayer in a rote, unthoughtful way? Or do we really want God's will to be done, on earth as it is in heaven? If we really do, then we should respect and honor His perfect will, which is mercy, peace, harmony of all living beings, non-violence.


However, if one makes this a reason to judge another person in this world, and to castigate them or accuse them, (when God Himself has allowed it and ordained it), deprives them of any spiritual benefit and voids any virtue they may have had in living such asceticism.

Yes, I think we have to be careful in how we speak about this issue… I think there is a lot of passion on both sides, and it can be easy to respond in a fleshly way, out of anger or frustration.

I don’t consider myself a vegan, (as I disagree with veganism on a few things) but as someone who loves animals and no longer eats animal products (with the exception of honey) I have to remember that people have different perspectives, different beliefs…. and the last thing I want to do is be like one of those militant, extremely judgmental vegans whose approach is counterproductive, imo.

I went plant-based despite them, not because of them.


In this fallen world, (which has been corrupted by the permeation of sin and the death of everything in it), God, in His great mercy, allows us to use the plants and animals for our survival. Yet, we must do so in a spirit of reverence, mercy, and thanskgiving. In fact, in the Old Covenant, before Christ the Lamb of God came to take away the sins of the world, He ordered it, and in that same manner.

I don’t want to start up a whole new debate here, but to me what you said above (the bold part) is an oxymoron.

If someone doesn’t want to be killed, how can butchering them - simply to satisfy our fleshly desire - ever be merciful? How can turning a blind eye to the horror of today’s factory farming and the utter disrespect for life ever be reverent to our Creator?

Just the opposite is true.


The Church fasts for many periods in the year, abstaining from meat and animal products, as a preparation and training for our life in the Kingdom and for the purification of our souls and bodies before we commune of the Divine Eucharist. But, never, at no time, have the believers in Christ taught strict vegetarianism for the faithful as the only means towards salvation, and those who put this yoke upon others create a new religion apart from the faith handed down by Jesus Christ.

Actually, many of the early Christians were vegetarian… but the more important thing, in my opinion, is to look to God’s heart, seek God’s will... not in terms of how things were back then, but how they are today. Not to what any particular church teaches, because humans are fallible, God is not.
 
Last edited:
Why did god create a world in which animals routinely torture and kill to survive?

What sin did they commit?
 
Why did god create a world in which animals routinely torture and kill to survive?

What sin did they commit?

From a biblical perspective, that wasn't how it was at the beginning.

According to the bible, even the animals were herbivores:


"and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so."

Genesis 1:30


The world changed after the "fall" of man, in a number of ways.

As for how some animals changed so drastically... that's an interesting topic. (good question) There's a lot we don't know about the early days of this world...but the book of Enoch mentions that there were shenanigans, not only between fallen angels and human women, but also with the animals. That is one possibility (as crazy as that sounds.)

But as I mentioned to TER, according to the bible, in the end, that peace and harmony that existed in the beginning among creation will be restored.


And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.

Also the cow and the bear will graze,
Their young will lie down together,
And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.

They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:6-9
 
Lilymc, thank your for your heartfelt posts above. I agree with you that God's original design, to which we struggle to see, is a creation where there is no death and no eating of animal flesh. I agree that it is the heavenly and angelic way. And if abstaining from meat is brought on by a deep and heartfelt love for animals and for God Who made them, and such a life brings one closer to Him, then glory to God! May it be blessed! Many great Saints of the Church have lived this way in such completed abstinence. But definitely not the majority of them.

Strict year round dogmatic vegetarianism is not biblical and it is not according to the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. It is a deviation and distortion to make this a dogma of the Christian Church when it never has been. It is slightly humorous the lengths some would go to make this a dogma, as we have seen in this thread.


When Christ was presented into the Temple when He was forty days old, two turtledoves were sacrificed as an offering to God.

In His life, Christ, and every Jew He knew, including those He sent as Apostles, followed the traditions and teachings of the Prophets of the Old Covenant, ate of the Passover lamb, and gave the proscribed offerings and sacrifice. Christ on this earth was not a vegetarian.

Christ ate fish and fed the masses with fish. He arraigned such a large catch of fish while in St. Peter's boat, that some may have rotted before they could be eaten and were eventually thrown away or used as bait.

Christ never once spoke out against eating meat or using animals for the assistance and advantage of man. Indeed, He rode upon a donkey when He entered into Jerusalem.

It is obvious that God has allowed men to take animals as food, as a sacrifice and dispensation.

From the day sin manifested in the Garden which God prepared for His children, death has held power over everything in it. All of material creation is infected. That is why everything in creation undergoes death and decay. Nothing material remains constant and unending. All, if given enough time in this fallen (read: diseased) creation, will turn to dust. Everyone you see will die, and this is the reality which man is born into.

While our divine plan was to live in Paradise, where the wolf sits with the lamb, we do not live there, and never will in this present life and on this fallen world.

In this world, we bleed and hunger and thirst and must protect the lives of those around us, our family and children, so that they might not die from us so soon.

Just as a man would kill and cook an animal if the lives of his children depended on it, so too God allows the death and eating of animals so that His children can survive.

Indeed, the first thing God did to aid Adam and Eve after their fall was to give them tunics of skin to wear. He shows that the use and even death of animal to protect and save the life of a man is not rejected by God. It is an acceptable sacrifice. For God has His plan for animals, but has another for mankind. In lieu of Isaac, God provided Abraham a ram instead for sacrifice.

So too, God valued Abel's offering over Cain's, and did not reject it, which led to Cain becoming envious.

Plants are not equal to animals, and beasts are not equal to the value and the life of a man. Man, which is the pinnacle of creation, bears the divine image of God in them. 'For don't you know that you are worth more than many sparrows?' Man has the indwelling Spirit of God in him, the breath of God, which makes them true sons of God. Those who equate the life of man with the life of beasts make a big error. Indeed, there are some confused people who put the life of animals over human beings. This is a great delusion and sin!

God has allowed the sacrifice of animals as a dispensation to provide means for His children to survive and to thrive in this world which is under the power of death. Indeed, He commanded it and His Prophets implemented it. The Old Testament has countless examples and references of the eating of meat and the sacrifice of animals to God. He allows us to make food of His creatures- not because He doesn't love them, but because we are His children and are valued more so. God has "no respect for persons" (meaning, all men are loved the same and He does not show favoritism between His children), but between men and all other creatures, He most certainly does. It was for the sake of man whereby God created the animals and all of creation. The student is not greater than the teacher, and the sheep is not greater than the shepherd.

That does not mean we should abuse creation and the animals in it! We must show reverence, respect, and give thanksgiving to God for giving us such things on account of our weakness and the corrupt predicament we are in.

It is admiral that some have taken the position in which they refuse to eat meat out of moral objection and because they wish to grow closer to God. May they never be in a position where their very life depended on it! If they can live such a way, then it is commendable when it is without pride or vainglory.

What is not admiral (in fact, very spiritually dangerous) is to accuse and denigrate others who eat meat and to place oneself as being more loving or greater than the other on account of this,when God has clearly established and allowed the eating of meat in this world out of His great mercy and love.
 
Last edited:
What happens in modern day farms and slaughterhouses is often times disgraceful and shameful, and it is good to speak up so that men might have more mercy and compassion for these poor animals.

But because imperfect men do imperfect things does not mean we should take the extreme position that eating meat is damnable and unlawful, when this has never been the dogma of the Christian Church. It is simply an innovation and creation of a new religion apart from the faith which Christ established.

So far, no one has submitted any proof that strict vegetarianism was ever the practice of the Christians. Even in monasteries, where some ascetic monks live on roots and water all year round, there are instances when they are given fish or meat to eat if they become ill or sick, as a way to give them more protein and nourishment and to strengthen them. (It is also a way to humble them if they have made fasting from meat as some kind of root for pride to grow in them and spiritually corrupt them).

What God has allowed out of divine love and mercy, namely the providing of meat for mankind, we should not deny when our brother or neighbor is in need of such mercy, especially if their life depended on it. Otherwise, we become Pharisaical and put our righteous works of vegetarianism and sense of moralism above the concerns and needs of our fellow brothers who are also laboring in the fields. Indeed, trying to save beasts while at the same time 'murdering' our fellow brothers, not unlike Cain.
 
Last edited:
Just to be clear, I am not accusing you Lilly of having such extremism, but when I see you aligning yourself with such teachings over the Church of Jesus Christ and the Saints which have made it up these past two thousand years, ascribing to modernist humanist and foreign (Buddhist? Jainism?) views over the teachings handed down from the Apostles, it is troubling and worrying and underscores why Christ established His Body, the Church, to be the pillar and foundation of the truth (since He alone is the Head of it).

To have compassion and love for animals, and abstain from eating meat, is very consistent with Christain practice and praxis. It can most certainly bring someone closer to God.

To judge another for eating meat as being a sinner and to create new dogmas apart from what was handed down by the Christian Saints before us, is not consistent with Christian practice, and can most certainly lead one further from God.

Again, I am not saying that you are nessasarily doing that, but there are some who do such a thing. In arguing against a dispensation which God has allowed out of mercy for the weaker amongst us, we must be humble, have mercy, and use discernment.
 
Last edited:
How is it that an uneducated (HS dropout) ex-con ,, can agree with you on so much concerning Christ and salvation,, and only disagree on small interpretations/ minor parts.


it would certainly,,not be of any of my doing.

and I do believe from your posting that you have been professionally educated in such. I have not.
my "seminary" was different. ;)
Religion is for people that don't want to go to hell.

Spirituality is for people that have already been there.
 
Last edited:
But because imperfect men do imperfect things does not mean we should take the extreme position that eating meat is damnable and unlawful, when this has never been the dogma of the Christian Church. It is simply an innovation and creation of a new religion apart from the faith which Christ established.

So far, no one has submitted any proof that strict vegetarianism was ever the practice of the Christians.

A vegetarian diet in fact was a requirement of many early church Christians/Saints/Theologians:

One of the greatest theologians in the early Christian church, Tertullian, or Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, was born in Carthage about AD 155-160. Cyprian, the Bishop of Carthage, called him the "Master." Tertullian was one of four early church fathers who wrote extensively on the subject of vegetarianism.

"It was divinely proclaimed," insisted Tertullian, "’Wine and strong liquor shall you not drink, you and your sons after you.’ Now this prohibition of drink is essentially connected with the vegetable diet. Thus, where abstinence from wine is required by the Deity, or is vowed by man, there, too, may be understood suppression of gross feeding, for as is the eating, so is the drinking.

"It is not consistent with truth that a man should sacrifice half of his stomach only to God—that he should be sober in drinking, but intemperate in eating. Your belly is your God, your liver is your temple, your paunch is your altar, the cook is your priest, and the fat steam is your Holy Spirit; the seasonings and the sauces are your chrisms, and your belchings are your prophesizing..."

Tertullian similarly scorned those who would use the gospel to justify gratifying the cravings of the flesh:

"How unworthily, too, do you press the example of Christ as having come ‘eating and drinking’ into the service of your lusts: He who pronounced not the full but the hungry and thirsty ‘blessed,’ who professed His work to be the completion of His Father’s will, was wont to abstain—instructing them to labor for that ‘meat’ which lasts to eternal life, and enjoining in their common prayers petition not for gross food but for bread only."

Tertullian made his case for moderate eating by referring to the history of the Israelites (Numbers 11:4-34): "And if there be ‘One’ who prefers the works of justice, not however, without sacrifice—that is to say, a spirit exercised by abstinence—it is surely that God to whom neither a gluttonous people nor priest was acceptable—monuments of whose concupiscence remain to this day, where lies buried a people greedy and clamorous for flesh-meats, gorging quails even to the point of inducing jaundice [/death].

Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-220), or Titus Flavius Clemens, founded the Alexandrian school of Christian Theology and succeeded Pantaenus in AD 190. In his writings, he referred to vegetarian philosophers Pythagoras, Plato, and even Socrates as divinely inspired. But the true teachings, he insisted, are to be found in the Hebrew prophets and in the person of Jesus Christ.

Clement taught that a life of virtue is one of simplicity, and that the apostle Matthew was a vegetarian. According to Clement, eating flesh and drinking wine "is rather characteristic to a beast and the fumes rising from them, being dense, darken the soul...Destroy not the work of God for the sake of food. Whether ye eat or drink, do all to the glory of God, aiming after true frugality. For it is lawful for me to partake of all things, yet all things are not expedient...neither is the regimen of a Christian formed by indulgence...man is not by nature a gravy eater, but a bread eater.

"Those who use the most frugal fare are the strongest, the healthiest and the noblest...We must guard against those sorts of food which persuade us to eat when we are not hungry," warned Clement, "bewitching the appetite...is there not within a temperate simplicity, a wholesome variety of eatables—vegetables, roots, olives, herbs, milk, cheese, fruits...?

"But those who bend around inflammatory tables, nourishing their own diseases, are ruled by a most licentious disease which I shall venture to call the demon of the belly: the worst and most vile of demons. It is far better to be happy than to have a devil dwelling in us, for happiness is found only in the practice of virtue. Accordingly the apostle Matthew lived upon seeds, fruits, grains and nuts and vegetables, without the use of flesh."

Clement acknowledged the moral and spiritual advantages of the vegetarian way of life:

"If any righteous man does not burden his soul by the eating of flesh, he has the advantage of a rational motive...The very ancient altar of Delos was celebrated for its purity, to which alone, as being undefiled by slaughter and death, they say that Pythagoras would permit approach. "And they will not believe us when we say that the righteous soul is the truly sacred altar? But I believe that sacrifices were invented by men to be a pretext for eating flesh."

"Holy people are most loving and gentle in their dealings with their fellows, and even with the lower animals: for this reason it was said that ‘A righteous man is merciful to the life of his beast,’" explained St. John Chrysostom (AD 347-407). "Surely we ought to show kindness and gentleness to animals for many reasons and chiefly because they are of the same origin as ourselves."

Writing about the Christian saints and ascetics, Chrysostom observed: "No streams of blood are among them; no butchering and cutting of flesh...With their repast of fruits and vegetables even angels from heaven, as they behold it, are delighted and pleased."

Chrysostom considered flesh-eating a cruel and unnatural habit for Christians: "We imitate the ways of wolves, the ways of leopards, or rather we are worse than these. For nature has assigned that they should be thus fed, but us God hath honored with speech and a sense of equity, yet we are worse than the wild beasts."

In a homily on Matthew 22:1-4, Chrysostom taught:

"We the Christian leaders practice abstinence from the flesh of animals to subdue our bodies...the unnatural eating of flesh-meat is of demonical origin...the eating of flesh is polluting." He added that "flesh-meats and wine serve as materials for sensuality, and are a source of danger, sorrow, and disease."

In a homily on II Corinthians 9, Chrysostom distinguished between nourishment and gluttony:

"No one debars thee from these, nor forbids thee thy daily food. I say ‘food,’ not ‘feasting’; ‘raiment’ not ‘ornament,’...For consider, who should we say more truly feasted—he whose diet is herbs, and who is in sound health and suffered no uneasiness, or he who has the table of a Sybarite and is full of a thousand disorders?

"Certainly the former. Therefore, let us seek nothing more than these, if we would at once live luxuriously and healthfully. And let him who can be satisfied with pulse, and can keep in good health, seek for nothing more. But let him who is weaker, and needs to be dieted with other vegetable fruits, not be debarred from them."

In a homily on the Epistle to Timothy, Chrysostom described the ill effects of becoming a slave to one’s bodily appetites:

"A man who lives in selfish luxury is dead while he lives, for he lives only to his stomach. In other senses he lives not. He sees not what he ought to see; he hears not what he ought to hear; he speaks not what he ought to speak. Nor does he perform the actions of living.

"But as he who is stretched upon a bed with his eyes closed and his eyelids fast, perceives nothing that is passing; so is it with this man, or rather not so, but worse. For the one is equally insensible to things good and evil, while the other is sensible to things evil only, but as insensible as the former to things good.

"Thus he is dead. For nothing relating to the life to come moves or affects him. For intemperance, taking him into her own bosom as into some dark and dismal cavern full of all uncleanliness, causes him to dwell altogether in darkness, like the dead. For, when all his time is spent between feasting and drunkenness, is he not dead, and buried in darkness?

"Who can describe the storm that comes of luxury, that assails the soul and body? For, as a sky continually clouded admits not the sunbeams to shine through, so the fumes of luxury...envelop his brain...and casting over it a thick mist, suffers not reason to exert itself.

"If it were possible to bring the soul into view and to behold it with our bodily eyes—it would seem depressed, mournful, miserable, and wasted with leanness; for the more the body grows sleek and gross, the more lean and weakly is the soul. The more one is pampered, the more the other is hampered."

The orthodox, 4th century Christian Hieronymus connected vegetarianism with both the original diet given by God and the teachings of Jesus:

"The eating of animal meat was unknown up to the big Flood, but since the Flood they have pushed the strings and stinking juices of animal meat into our mouths, just as they threw quails in front of the grumbling sensual people in the desert. Jesus Christ, who appeared when the time had been fulfilled, has again joined the end with the beginning, so that it is no longer allowed for us to eat animal meat."


St. Jerome (AD 340-420) wrote to a monk in Milan who had abandoned vegetarianism:

"But after the Flood, together with the giving of the Law, which no man could fulfill, the eating of flesh was brought in, and the putting away of wives was conceded to hardness of heart...But now that Christ has come in the end of time, and has turned back Omega to Alpha...neither is it permitted to us to put away our wives, nor are we circumcised, nor do we eat flesh."


St. Ciaran of Ossory noted in the 5th Century that animals have intrinsic rights because of their capacity to feel pleasure and pain. Butler’s four-volume Lives of the Saints describes many saints as abstinent from childhood, never eating flesh-meats, never touching meat or wine, compassionate to all creatures, etc.

St. Benedict, who founded the Benedictine Order in AD 529, permitted meat only in times of sickness, and made vegetarian foods the staple for his monks, teaching, "Nothing is more contrary to the Christian spirit than gluttony." The Rule of St. Benedict itself is a composite of ascetic teachings from previous traditions, such as St. Anthony’s monasticism in Egypt, which called for abstinence from meat and wine.

According to [Saint] Francis, a lack of mercy towards animals leads to a lack of mercy towards men: "If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men."

According to E. Eyre-Smith, in an article from The Ark, "Montalembert’s Monks of the West records in Vita Columbani, the Chronicler Jonas, writing within 25 years of the death of St. Columban, relates that this saint spent long periods in solitary contemplation and communion with the wild creatures of the forest, and insisted on his monks living, like himself, on the fruits of the earth, herbs and pulses. This indicates that in making rules for his followers in regard to non-meat eating, he was moved by his love and regard for the rest of God’s creation."

The Trappist monks of the Catholic Church practiced vegetarianism from the founding of their Order until the Second Vatican Council in the late 1960s. According to the Trappist rules, as formulated by Armand Jean de Rance (1626-1700), "in the dining hall nothing is layed out except: pulse, roots, cabbages, or milk, but never any fish...I hope I will move you more and more rigorously, when you discover that the use of simple and rough food has its origin with the holy apostles (James, Peter, Matthew).

"We can assure you that we have written nothing about this subject which was not believed, observed, proved good through antiquity, proved by historians and tradition, preserved and kept up to us by the holy monks."

A contemporary Benedictine monk, Brother David Steindl-Rast points out that the lives of the saints teach compassion towards all living beings. "Unfortunately," says Brother David, "Christians have their share of the exploitation of our environment and in the mistreatment of animals. Sometimes they have even tried to justify their crimes by texts from the Bible, misquoted out of context. But the genuine flavor of a tradition can best be discerned in its saints...

Roman Catholic Cardinal John Henry Newman (1801-90), wrote in 1870 that "cruelty to animals is as if a man did not love God." On another occasion, he asked: Now what is it that moves our very heart and sickens us so much at cruelty shown to poor brutes? I suppose this: first, that they have done us no harm; next, that they have no power whatever of resistance; it is the cowardice and tyranny of which they are the victims which make their sufferings so especially touching...there is something so very dreadful, so satanic, in tormenting those who have never harmed us and who cannot defend themselves; who are utterly in our power."

Cardinal Arthur Hinsley (1865-1943), the former archbishop of Westminster, wrote that "the spirit of St. Francis [which was 100% vegetarianism] is the Catholic spirit." According to Cardinal Hinsley, "Cruelty to animals is the degrading attitude of paganism."

A Roman Catholic priest, Msgr. LeRoy E. McWilliams of North Arlington, New Jersey, testified in October 1962 in favor of legislation to reduce the sufferings of laboratory animals. He told congressional representatives:

"The first book of the Bible tell us that God created the animals and the birds, so they have the same Father as we do. God’s Fatherhood extends to our ‘lesser brethren.’ All animals belong to God; He alone is their absolute owner. In our relations with them, we must emulate the divine attributes, the highest of which is mercy. God, their Father and Creator, loves them tenderly. He lends them to us and adjures us to use them as He Himself would do.""

Msgr. McWilliams also issued a letter to all seventeen thousand Catholic pastors in the United States, calling upon them to understand "what Christianity imposes on humans as their clear obligation to animals."

Reverend Basil Wrighton, the chairman of the Catholic Study Circle for Animal Welfare in London, wrote in a 1965 article entitled, "The Golden Age Must Return: A Catholic’s Views on Vegetarianism," that a vegetarian diet is not only consistent with, but actually required by the tenets of Christianity. (Luke 16:17) He concluded that the killing of animals for food not only violates religious tenets, but brutalizes humans to the point where violence and warfare against other humans becomes inevitable.

Father Thomas Berry, a Catholic priest, author, and founder of the Riverdale Center of Religious Research in New York, wrote in 1987 that "vegetarianism is a way of life that we should all move toward for economic survival, physical well-being, and spiritual integrity."
One of the most respected English theologians of the 18th century, William Paley (1743-1805), taught that killing animals for food was unjustifiable. Paley called the excuses used to justify killing animals "extremely lame," and even refuted the rationalizations concerning fishing.

The Bible Christian Church was a 19th century movement teaching vegetarianism, abstinence from intoxication, and compassion for animals. The church began in England in 1800, requiring all its members to take vows of abstinence from meat and wine. One of its first converts, William Metcalfe (1788-1862), immigrated to Philadelphia in 1817 with forty-one followers to establish a church in America. Metcalfe cited numerous biblical references to support his thesis that humans were meant to follow a vegetarian diet for reasons of health and compassion for animals.

The Mormon Church has also advocated a mostly vegetarian diet as part of its philosophy of health and reverence for life. This began in 1833, when church founder Joseph Smith received a revelation of such a health code as God’s will, emphasizing grains as the staple for one’s diet. Meat is meant to be eaten only rarely, such as in times of famine or extreme cold, when animals will likely perish.

Although Seventh-Day Adventists strongly recommend vegetarianism for reasons of health and nutrition, White also espoused the belief that kindness to animals should be a Christian duty. In Ministry of Healing, she urged the faithful to:

"Think of the cruelty that meat eating involves, and its effect on those who inflict and those who behold it. How it destroys the tenderness with which we should regard these creatures of God!"

In Patriarchs and Prophets, White referred to numerous passages in the Bible calling for kindness to animals, and concluded that humans will be judged according to how they fulfill their moral obligations to animals:

"It is because of man’s sin that ‘the whole creation groaneth and travaileth together in pain’ (Romans 8:22). Surely, then, it becomes man to seek to lighten, instead of increasing, the weight of suffering which his transgression has brought upon God’s creatures. He who will abuse animals because he has them in his power is both a coward and a tyrant. A disposition to cause pain, whether to our fellow men or to the brute creation is satanic. Many do not realize that their cruelty will ever be known because the poor dumb animals cannot reveal it. But could the eyes of these men be opened, as were those of Balaam, they would see an angel of God standing as a witness to testify against them in the courts above. A record goes up to heaven, and a day is coming when judgement will be pronounced against those who abuse God’s creatures."

"Tenderness accompanies all the might imparted by Spirit," wrote Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, in Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures. "The individuality created by God is not carnivorous, as witness the millenial estate pictured by Isaiah (11:6-9):

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

In his 1923 work, The Natural Diet of Man, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg observed:

"The attitude of the Bible writers toward flesh-eating is the same as toward polygamy. Polygamy as well as flesh-eating was tolerated under the social and religious systems of the old Hebrews and even during the early centuries of the Christian era; but the first man, Adam, in his pristine state in the Garden of Eden was both a monogamist and a flesh-abstainer."

"If the Bible supports flesh-eating, it equally supports polygamy; for all the patriarchs had plural wives as well as concubines. Christian ethics enjoin a return to the Edenic example in matters matrimonial. Physiologic science as well as human experience call for a like return to Eden in matters dietetic."

On June 5, 1958, the Reverend Norman Vincent Peale stated, "I do not believe a person can be a true Christian, and at the same time engage in cruel or inconsiderate treatment of animals."

"Honourable men may honourably disagree about some details of human treatment of the non-human," wrote Stephen Clark in his 1977 book, The Moral Status of Animals, "but vegetarianism is now as necessary a pledge of moral devotion as was the refusal of emperor-worship in the early church." According to Clark, eating animal flesh is "gluttony," and "Those who still eat flesh when they could do otherwise have no claim to be serious moralists."

According to the Reverend James E. Caroll, an Episcopal priest in Van Nuys, California, "A committed Christian, who knows what his religion is about, will never kill an animal needlessly. Above all, he will do his utmost to put a stop to any kind of cruelty to any animal. A Christian who participates in or gives consent to cruelty to animals had better reexamine his religion or else drop the name Christian."

In 1992, members of Los Angeles’ First Unitarian Church agreed to serve vegetarian meals at the church’s weekly Sunday lunch. This decision was made as a protest against animal cruelty and the environmental damage caused by the livestock industry.

"It is not a question of palate, of custom, of expediency, but of right," wrote the Reverend J. Tyssul-Davies, B.A., on the subject of vegetarianism. "As a mere Christian Minister, I have had to make my decision. My palate was on the side of custom; my intellect argued for the expedient; but my higher reason and conscience left me no alternative. Our Lord came to give life, and we do not follow Him by taking life needlessly. So, I was compelled, against myself, to eschew carnivorism."

In a pamphlet entitled "The Spiritual Link Between Humans and Animals," Reverend Marc Wessels writes: "We recognize that many animal rights activists and ecologists are highly critical of Christians because of our relative failure thus far adequately to defend animals and to preserve the natural environment. Yet there are positive signs of a growing movement of Christian activists and theologians who are committed to the process of ecological stewardship and animal liberation.

"Individual Christians and groups on a variety of levels, including denominational, ecumenical, national and international, have begun the delayed process of seriously considering and practically addressing the question of Christian responsibility for animals. Because of the debate surrounding the ‘rights’ of animals, some Christians are considering the tenets of their faith in search for an appropriate ethical response."

"To think about animals as our brothers and sisters is not a new or radical idea. By extending the idea of neighbor, the love of neighbor includes love of, compassion for, and advocacy of animals. There are many historical examples of Christians who thought along those lines, besides the familiar illustration of St. Francis. An abbreviated listing of some of those individuals worthy of study and emulation includes Saint Blaise, Saint Comgall, Saint Cuthbert, Saint Gerasimus, Saint Giles, and Saint Jerome, to name but a few."

"Jesus’ life was one of compassion and liberation;" concludes Reverend Wessels, "his ministry was one which understood and expressed the needs of the oppressed. Especially in the past decade, Christians have been reminded that their faith requires them to take seriously the cries of the oppressed.

The Reverend Andrew Linzey notes that "humans are made in the image of God, given dominion, and then told to follow a vegetarian diet (Genesis 1:29). Herb-eating dominion is not despotism." However, Linzey acknowledges the need for a new theology, an animal liberation theology, which would revolutionize our understanding of humanity’s place in creation and relationship to other species, just as the Copernican picture of a sun-centered universe replaced the earth-centered picture.

"We need a concept of ourselves in the universe not as the master species but as the servant species—as the one given responsibility for the whole and the good of the whole. We must move from the idea that animals were given to us and made for us, to the idea that we were made for creation, to serve it and ensure its continuance. This actually is little more than the theology of Genesis chapter two. The Garden is made beautiful and abounds with life: humans are created specifically to ‘take care of it.’ (Genesis 2:15)

"A great wickedness of the Christian tradition," observes Reverend Linzey, "is that, at this very point, where it could have been a source of great blessing and life; it has turned out to be a source of cursing and death. I refer here to the way Christian theology has allowed itself to promulgate notions that animals have no rights; that they are put here for our use; that animals have no more moral status than sticks and stones. Animal rights in this sense is a religious problem. It is about how the Christian tradition in particular has failed to realize the God-given rights of God-given life. Animal rights remains an urgent question of theology."

In his book, Animal Rights: A Christian Assessment of Man’s Treatment of Animals, the Reverend Dr. Andrew Linzey writes with regret: "It has, I think, to be sadly recognized that Christians, Catholic or otherwise, have failed to construct a satisfactory moral theology of animal treatment."

Vegetarianism is ethical, healthier, "environmentally correct," and economical. It’s been said that if everyone had to kill animals every day for his or her own meat, most of us would choose vegetarianism. The vegetarian way of life, as taught by Srila Prabhupada, is consistent not only with human anatomy, the Bible, and Christian tradition and theology, but with Western spirituality in general.
 
Last edited:
The information is abundant with sources - Did you not even read it?

Some of it. I got tired of weaksauce stuff like this:
Clement acknowledged the moral and spiritual advantages of the vegetarian way of life:

"If any righteous man does not burden his soul by the eating of flesh, he has the advantage of a rational motive...The very ancient altar of Delos was celebrated for its purity, to which alone, as being undefiled by slaughter and death, they say that Pythagoras would permit approach. "And they will not believe us when we say that the righteous soul is the truly sacred altar? But I believe that sacrifices were invented by men to be a pretext for eating flesh."
and quit. Claiming a quote is by x without citing exactly where it's found is BS. Every known patristic writing can and should be attributed in a serious paper.
 
I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain the Orthodox understanding. I will try once more..

As I have said more than a few times in this thread, it is certainly a higher path to abstain from meat out of love and piety, but it is certainly not commanded upon on Christians in this life to do so year round. It simply is not and has never been so. Now, if you would like to start your own church and teach that, and create your own canon, then you are free to do so. But it would still be against the teachings of all the Churches which claim historically to be apostolic in succession (including the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which incidentally, even though they have the Book of Enoch in their canon, they do in fact eat meat - their cuisine and diet, actually, is heavy with meat when it is available).

Many of those quotes you listed above are taken out of context so you can try and prove that strict vegetarianism is the apostolic teaching, when in reality and in this real historical world, it is not. You are proof texting quotes, and ignoring the majority of the works of these great Christian writers.

They may have taught that the higher way, if it is possible for man, is to choose a life devoid of meat eating, especially during the fasting periods of the Church (which these quotes are in context with if you actually read the entire writing and not just picking bits here and there). But they never taught that strict vegetarianism was the apostolic way or a teaching of Christ or a dogma of the Church. Not one of them taught that, so to claim otherwise and say it was the way of the Christians is simply either a lie or a misguided opinion.

In the Council of Jerusalem, (as described in the Book of Acts), when the Church deliberated on the topic of the dietary laws and their application with the Gentiles, it was decided that animals should not be eaten if they were sacrificed to idols or if they were strangled. That, of course means that animals which were killed appropriately and not as a sacrifice to idols were allowed to be eaten. Thus, the early Church, with the very Apostles, did not teach vegetarianism at all when the topic came up in the first Church Council ever conveyed. It actually taught the opposite.

And even this canon or principle, if broken, is forgivable, for the sake of the salvation of men.

Interestingly, later in Galatians, St. Paul teaches that even eating meat which was sacrificed to idols is not 'forbidden' or harmful to those who have strong faith, but because the weaker brethren may be harmed by this and falter, it was decided, out of mercy and dispensation, to create such a general rule.

Of course, one is free to start claiming this was a fraudulent addition or a lie or some other nonsense to try and justify their innovative and contrary position, but the truth remains that never has the Church forbidden the eating of meat, except during times of the fast (and even then, it was as a means of training, and as a pastoral guidance which could be amended according to the state of the individual and the circumstances). The Church is not in the business of legalism. It is in the business of guidance and therapy and medicine, for the sake of the members of the Body. For example, just because the Church proclaimed that eating certain things should be avoided on certain days or certain periods, if a person was sick or in a diseased state, lenience could be applied at the discretion of the ordained minister and spiritual father.

You see, the mission of the Church, as the spiritual hospital, is to help the sinner, and different medicine may be needed than what is proscribed as general canonical norms.

These quotes of the Church Fathers teach that it is a better way (an angelic way) to live as a monastic as well as to abstain from meat. But these ascetic practices and virtuous pursuits are nowhere near as important as abstaining from judging your brother who may indeed eat meat, knowing that God has allowed it in this world as a merciful dispensation. To paraquote one Church Father, 'what is the value in avoiding meat while you 'eat' your brother in judgment?'

One can clean their house (their body and soul) of animal flesh and products, and after having cleaned it and purified it, later, by ignorance and arrogance and pride, they allow seven times more demons come into it and control it and destroy it.

This is the danger of making vegetarianism not just a higher and more virtuous way, but as a dogma which should be applied to all people. None of those Saints taught that or excommunicated others for eating meat during non fasting days.

Christ ate meat. Also, Christ never taught His disciples to be vegetarians. The Church and the members of it have never practiced or taught strict year round vegetarianism as a dogmatic teaching. Whenever the topic of fasting and diet recommendations have come up in Council within the history of the Church, it has never proclaimed vegetarianism to be an apostolic doctrine of the Church.

That it can be a spiritually beneficial path, for both body and spirit, there is no argument.

However, as the Church knows through experience, and as taught by all the Saints, it can also become a stumbling block, an unmerciful yoke, and worst of all, a source of pride and vainglory.

So whoever tries to preach that the apostles and the early Christians practiced or taught strict year round vegetarianism for the faithful (and especially for the laity), they are speaking a distortion and a lie. That is why to try and justify themselves, they throw whatever quote they find (often times out of context) or whatever support they think helps them while ignoring the vast consensus and historical witness which actually proves them wrong.

In the end, if you wish to get closer to God through vegetarianism, that is great! Many Orthodox Christians do this, and in fact all should be trying to do this at least during the fasting periods. But when you start trying to start a new church against the Church of the Martyrs and the Saints and the Apostles, then I respectfully think you are kicking against the goads.
 
Last edited:
Also, we must separate this argument being made which equates that eating meat for food (which God has allowed) to be the same as inhumane animal cruelty and torture. There is an honorable and merciful way to provide meat, and there are inhonorable and tortuous ways. We should always strive to be as honorable as we can, in all things we do, especially to creatures which are innocent and feel pain.

If one wishes to stop eating meat on account of compassion and to send a message through activism and such, then there is nothing wrong with that, and in fact, is commendable.

But that is a completely different proposition then claiming that the Christian Church has taught strict vegetarianism and that it is a sin to eat of meat, when God Himself has allowed it.

I think if you really care about animals and the way they are mistreated, then speak out against the unmerciful practices and the horrific conditions which they suffering in, instead of trying to make people believe that the teachings of the Apostles and of Jesus Christ taught vegetarianism in this world, which is a fabrication.

I believe you will make much more progress exposing the truths of men's mismanagements in the farming industry then in creating a new Christian religion based on lies and distortions.
 
Last edited:
Sorry if what I am saying seems like strong medicine, but it is because I do appreciate your concern for the abuse of animals and wish to help you. I respect your concerns and applaud your discipline and piety. But, when we disallow others what God has allowed, then, in a way, we are putting ourselves above God and as perhaps having greater wisdom and mercy. This is very dangerous.
 
I get a sense that you do not wish to think such a way, that is, to put yourself above God. You seem sincere in your search for the truth.

The problem is that your search has led you to deny many verses from canonical Scripture, make dogmatic interpretations from non-canonical writings, and misrepresent the teachings of Christian saints. This is not helping you in learning the truth, no matter how much it may seem to justify your presupposed personal positions. We must be able to humbly accept when we are wrong or have been misguided and then correct ourselves.

One can live a good and blessed life giving their hearts, tears and sweat to protect God's beloved animals, but they do not need to redefine the apostolic Christian faith to do so.
 
And though God ordained animal sacrifice and allowed meat to be eaten, even in this He had the solution and the plan to resolve this dispensation, by coming into the world, sacrificing His life, and giving His own Body and Blood to be consumed as the fulfillment of our human need for nourishment and sustenance. Every one of those Church Fathers mentioned above believed in the literal interpretation of the Holy Eucharist to be the very Body and Blood of the Incarnate Word of God. So not only were the first century Christians known to eat meat, but they were even called cannibals on account of the Lord's Supper by those with unspiritual eyes and weak faith. In fact, even in Christ's ministry on earth, many of His disciples left Him because they could not accept the teachings which He spoke about as demonstrated in John 6, namely that His Body is food and His Blood is drink for eternal life.

Christ is the Manna from Heaven and the Bread coming down from Heaven, and He gives Himself for the entire fulfillment of man and their salvation. Not only spiritually, but physically. He saves not only our souls, but our very flesh indeed, and through His grace, and His deified Body, all passions are healed and all sins are forgiven, and we are made perfect in Him.
 
Last edited:
... the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, which incidentally, even though they have the Book of Enoch in their canon, they do in fact eat meat - their cuisine and diet, actually, is heavy with meat when it is available).

Just an FYI -

Ethiopian Orhodox Christians eat a vegan diet 250 plus days a year in accordance with their Bible canon. "Even now, the Romanian, Coptic, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Churches continue the practice of avoiding all animal products including fish, eggs, fowl and milk sourced from animals (e.g. goats and cows as opposed to the milk of soy beans and coconuts)"...
- http://travelogue.travelvice.com/lebanon/vegetarian-lent-in-lebanon
 
Just an FYI -

Ethiopian Orhodox Christians eat a vegan diet 250 plus days a year in accordance with their Bible canon. "Even now, the Romanian, Coptic, Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Churches continue the practice of avoiding all animal products including fish, eggs, fowl and milk sourced from animals (e.g. goats and cows as opposed to the milk of soy beans and coconuts)"...
- http://travelogue.travelvice.com/lebanon/vegetarian-lent-in-lebanon

Yes, those are during the fasting periods.

During the non-fasting periods, meat is eaten, as it always has been.
 
Back
Top