Why aren’t libertarians rejecting Rand Paul’s fight against Planned Parenthood?

How do you prove that a baby before it passes through the birth canal is not a person (your language)?

You can't.

There is never "proof" in ethics.

All ethics begin from premises which one deeply believes to be true, at an intuitive level, but cannot prove.

This is true of both secular and religious ethics. It all begins with faith, as it were.
 
You can't.

There is never "proof" in ethics.

All ethics begin from premises which one deeply believes to be true, at an intuitive level, but cannot prove.

This is true of both secular and religious ethics. It all begins with faith, as it were.

Is one view of ethics right and another view of ethics wrong?
 
Is one view of ethics right and another view of ethics wrong?

Yes, mine are right and every other is wrong.

:cool:

...and everyone firmly believes the same about their own ethics.

What I mean, of course, is that ethics is subjective.

Note that this does not entail relativism.
 
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Yes, mine are right and every other is wrong.

:cool:

...and everyone firmly believes the same about their own ethics.

What I mean, of course, is that ethics is subjective.

Note that this does not entail relativism.

Wouldn't you want to fall back on the side of caution? It's not like there is any type of do overs in the abortion industry. Once they are sentenced to death, they cannot be revived. You do realize that you could be wrong? Then what.........What's the recourse? At least the pro life side takes a no harm approach. The pro choice side is partaking in a particularly risky endeavor rife with serious consequences.
 
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Yes, mine are right and every other is wrong.

:cool:

...and everyone firmly believes the same about their own ethics.

What I mean, of course, is that ethics is subjective.

Note that this does not entail relativism.

Oh I see. The neocons' view of ethics is right for them, therefore why are we arguing against them?
 
Oh I see. The neocons' view of ethics is right for them, therefore why are we arguing against them?

No, I said it doesn't entail relativism (what you're describing would be relativism).

Relativism is the idea that, since ethics are subjective, one should equally tolerate all ethical views.

This is a big non sequitur.

To illustrate why, by way of analogy: Taste in food is subjective. Does it therefore follow that one should like all foods equally? No, of course not; non sequitur.

There is nothing inconsistent in recognizing that my preference for pork over chicken is subjective, while continuing to prefer pork over chicken, and acting accordingly.

Likewise, there is nothing inconsistent in recognizing that my libertarian ethics are subjective, while continuing to hold to them exclusively, and acting accordingly.

The big fallacy in popular thinking on ethics is that we must choose between relativism and belief in objective ethics. Generally, religious people argue for the latter (and are mistaken), and secular people argue for the former (and are mistaken).

N.B. In addition to not following logically from the fact that ethics are subjective, relativism is self-contradictory. It is itself an ethical view. Yet it commands tolerance of all ethical views. So, for instance, it would have to tolerate its own negation ("one should not tolerate anyone else's ethical view"). Another way of saying this is that the modern leftist idea of "tolerance" (the same thing as relativism) is actually intolerant of intolerance, and thus self-contradictory.

N.B. #2 I'd argue that the false dichotomy presented us between relativism and objective ethics (which are really just the left's ethics posing dishonestly as some kind of impartiality) is just a leftist strategy, exploiting the collapse of traditional religious belief to promote their own ethics (as if there were no other alternative to religious ethics).
 
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Libertarians can be pro-choice or pro-life; either position is consistent with libertarianism.

I'd argue that the "pro-choice" viewpoint is not consistent with libertarianism, but a third option - personal sovereignty - is.

The difference being that a miscarriage induced artificially is in many cases effectively impossible to distinguish from a natural one. However, there is no natural equivalent of the late-term abortion, just premature birth, so the personal sovereignty position would be permissive of early abortions that resemble miscarriage but not of late-term ones which resemble the murder of a prematurely-born child.
 
I'd argue that the "pro-choice" viewpoint is not consistent with libertarianism, but a third option - personal sovereignty - is.

The difference being that a miscarriage induced artificially is in many cases effectively impossible to distinguish from a natural one. However, there is no natural equivalent of the late-term abortion, just premature birth, so the personal sovereignty position would be permissive of early abortions that resemble miscarriage but not of late-term ones which resemble the murder of a prematurely-born child.

I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning, but the underlined is one of the reasons that I'm indifferent to the whole question: i.e. abortion prohibitions are largely unenforceable anyway.
 
I'm not sure that I follow your reasoning, but the underlined is one of the reasons that I'm indifferent to the whole question: i.e. abortion prohibitions are largely unenforceable anyway.

It would be pretty easy to enforce a law that would close down all public abortion clinics and prosecute doctors who perform abortions. The law probably wouldn't be able to go any further than that, but just doing that would go a long way.
 
It would be pretty easy to enforce a law that would close down all public abortion clinics and prosecute doctors who perform abortions

Sure, but it's not clear that that would reduce the number of abortions all that much (if at all).

Do we know how many "miscarriages" occurred prior to the legalization of abortion?
 
No, I said it doesn't entail relativism (what you're describing would be relativism).

Relativism is the idea that, since ethics are subjective, one should equally tolerate all ethical views.

This is a big non sequitur.

To illustrate why, by way of analogy: Taste in food is subjective. Does it therefore follow that one should like all foods equally? No, of course not; non sequitur.

There is nothing inconsistent in recognizing that my preference for pork over chicken is subjective, while continuing to prefer pork over chicken, and acting accordingly.

Likewise, there is nothing inconsistent in recognizing that my libertarian ethics are subjective, while continuing to hold to them exclusively, and acting accordingly.

The big fallacy in popular thinking on ethics is that we must choose between relativism and belief in objective ethics. Generally, religious people argue for the latter (and are mistaken), and secular people argue for the former (and are mistaken).

N.B. In addition to not following logically from the fact that ethics are subjective, relativism is self-contradictory. It is itself an ethical view. Yet it commands tolerance of all ethical views. So, for instance, it would have to tolerate its own negation ("one should not tolerate anyone else's ethical view"). Another way of saying this is that the modern leftist idea of "tolerance" (the same thing as relativism) is actually intolerant of intolerance, and thus self-contradictory.

N.B. #2 I'd argue that the false dichotomy presented us between relativism and objective ethics (which are really just the left's ethics posing dishonestly as some kind of impartiality) is just a leftist strategy, exploiting the collapse of traditional religious belief to promote their own ethics (as if there were no other alternative to religious ethics).

So the neocons view of ethics is analogous to them liking pork instead of chicien? Why are they wrong?
 
Sure, but it's not clear that that would reduce the number of abortions all that much (if at all).

Do we know how many "miscarriages" occurred prior to the legalization of abortion?

I don't think it's the case that just as many abortions would occur if it were against the law. But even if that were the case, that doesn't justify legal abortion. If abortion violates the rights of innocent human beings, then there has to be a law against it regardless of whether the law is effective or not. A free society can't tolerate the infringement of people's rights. 97% of all rapes don't end up with the rapist being convicted, but obviously that's not a legitimate reason to legalize rape. Rape has to be against the law since it violates people's rights. The same is true of abortion.
 
because abortion is a unique issue. you have to balance the right of the unborn baby vs. the right of the mother. its not like assisted suicide or birth control, where no third party is involved. I am pro-life (with exceptions for life/heath of the mother, known deformities etc), but support assisted suicide.

and no libertarian should support government paid birth control or any other money to planned Parenthood. Rand is not calling for Planned Parenthood to be closed, just lose their federal funding. let Soros or Hillary or Zuckerberg fund it.
 
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So the neocons view of ethics is analogous to them liking pork instead of chicken?

All ethics are rooted in subjective desires.

Why are they wrong?

The consequentialist answer: because their policies will yield results which I don't desire (like reduced material living standards).

The deontological answer: because their policies are themselves undesirable.
 
All ethics are rooted in subjective desires.

No they are not. Yours are. Not all are.

The consequentialist answer: because their policies will yield results which I don't desire (like reduced material living standards).

The deontological answer: because their policies are themselves undesirable.

But their policies are desirable to them and yield the results they want. So...why are they wrong?
 
I don't think it's the case that just as many abortions would occur if it were against the law. But even if that were the case, that doesn't justify legal abortion. If abortion violates the rights of innocent human beings, then there has to be a law against it regardless of whether the law is effective or not. A free society can't tolerate the infringement of people's rights. 97% of all rapes don't end up with the rapist being convicted, but obviously that's not a legitimate reason to legalize rape. Rape has to be against the law since it violates people's rights. The same is true of abortion.

Sure, I agree.

I'm just saying that the lack of (much) practical significance is one of the reasons that I'm indifferent.

If I had a very strong moral intuition about it, one way or the other, I'd want the law to reflect that, despite the near-irrelevance of it in practice.

But I don't. I can sympathize with both sides of the argument.
 
So, if ethical propositions do not represent subjective desires, what do they represent?

Objective facts?



Correct



I don't understand the question. I just told you why I would oppose their policies.

You told me why you would oppose their practices, but you didn't (and can't) tell me why they are wrong.

That's some convincing worldview you have.
 
You told me why you would oppose their practices, but you didn't (and can't) tell me why they are wrong.

My whole point about ethics being grounded in subjective desires is that that's the same question.

"X is wrong" = "I dislike X"

"Why is X wrong?" = "Why don't you like X?"
 
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