Who was the Worst Anti-Liberty American of All Time? (Fun Poll)

[Galileo Galilei]

Everyone knows the evils of slavery. It has little to do with whether slavery is right or wrong. It is a matter of principle.

Is this your constitutional argument?

1787: This is the supreme law of the land and it does not prohibit slavery.
1861: We know what the supreme law of the land has been for the past 74 years However we are a new generation and now that we are in power and we don't care what the law is. We know we do not have enough support to obtain a Constitutional amendment so we are going to impose our moral code and will upon you. By force if necessary.

What is the difference between that and health care? Or any other constitutional argument for that matter. If you believe national health care requires an amendment then you should also believe slavery required one instead of fighting a civil war to impose one. It is about the consistency of law. To amend the law with a proper amendment is one thing but to throw the law out the window is something entirely different.

If you do not support health care because it is not constitutional I can make a principled intellectual argument that you are no better than the people who supported slavery because they argued the same thing. This is one of the reasons the constitution is a failure. No moral consistency.

The Constitution starts with:


It was the Declaration of Independence that stated:


If there is one thing that is perfectly clear from statist history it is might makes right not following the law.

In 1787, slavery was almost everywhere.

In 1861, it was gone in the entire British empire, plus everywhere in the Western Hemisphere except Cuba, Brazil, and Puerto Rico.

In other words, slavery was an accepted evil in 1787, but not in 1861. In 1861, slavery was an unacceptable evil. The Founding Fathers couldn't solve every problem, they left the evil of slavery to the next generations. The North followed the example of the Founding Fathers, and gto rid of slavery. But not the South. The STATES in the south were enslaving people, and it was time to get rid of it. No army, not even that of General Lee, can stop an idea whose time has come.

PS

Your argument leaves me perplexed. Are you saying that runaway slaves like Frederick Douglass were bad?

 

[Galileo Galilei]

It had nothing to do with that, they were deserters from the British Navy in a time of war. Not only did the U.S. shelter them they were provided with false documents.



Dude. What are you smoking and where can I get a case?



They didn't need to issue war propaganda. They had plenty of newspapers under their control.



It was made the national anthem over a century later.



This ties in with most of the other crap you pulled out. The Federalist Party was in decline long before the war.



Back then elections were not popular efforts. Half the states still chose electors through appointment by state legislatures. Even then the Federalist Party actually gained support in 1812.



For entirely different reasons. Seriously, most people don't vote against someone for being a solider in a war.



It's a reality, not a myth.

Letter from John Adams to Thomas McKean (summer 1815):

"Mr. Madison's administration has proved great points, long disputed in Europe and America:

1. He has proved that an administration, under our present Constitution, can declare war.

2. That it can make peace.

3. That, money or no money, government or no government, Great Britain can never conquer this country or any considerable part of it.

4. That our officers and men by land are equal to any of Wellington's forces from Spain and Portugal.

5. That our navy is equal to any that ever floated on the ocean."

This is high praise for a so-called "unpopular war". James Madison proved that you don't need to violate the Constitution during war, which proves that the actions of Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR are unacceptable.

source (page 157):

http://books.google.com/books?id=Et...&ei=F1DrSsWsMoTAM4-wsO8L#v=onepage&q=&f=false

 

[anaconda]

Two clear front runners in this poll! This was a fun poll. Thank you for posting!

 

[Galileo Galilei]

Two clear front runners in this poll! This was a fun poll. Thank you for posting!

I forgot to put Jimmy Carter in the poll! Webster Tarpley will kill me!

 

[Galileo Galilei]

from a book review:

"Most boldly of all, Wood reconsiders what most scholars have thought to be Madison’s greatest failure: his seemingly inept leadership in the War of 1812. In fact, Wood argues, Madison knew exactly what he was doing. He and the Jeffersonians did not prepare for the war before it was upon them because “War, the Republicans realized, would lead to a Hamiltonian monarchical type of government, with increased taxes, an overblown bureaucracy, heavy debts, standing armies, and enhanced executive power.” And once the fighting commenced, “Better to allow the country to be invaded and the capital to be burned than to build up state power in a European monarchical manner.”

Today, as Wood acknowledges, such a thing is unimaginable. But at the time, Madison’s concern for keeping militarism in check, even in wartime, and his respect for civil liberties in extremis, won him great honor among his countrymen. John Adams said he had “acquired more glory, and established more Union, than all his three Predecessors, Washington, Adams, Jefferson, put together.”

“Maybe we ought to spend less time investigating Madison the author of the tenth Federalist and more time investigating Madison the president,” writes Wood. “His conception of war and government, whether we agree with it or not, might help us understand better the world we have lost.”

http://www.amconmag.com/mccarthy/2009/07/03/revolutionary-characters/

 

[Naraku]

You are making a statist argument. If an idividual wants to desert the British navy, that is their natural right.

I am making an argument that the United States was accepting deserters from the British navy at a time of war precisely because they were deserters from the British navy. The U.S. was not only forging papers but engaging in illegal trade. All the while Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were supportive of the French and against the British.

Hell, the Louisiana purchase only occurred because Napoleon invaded Spain and wrung that territory from them. All the while the U.S. was supportive of efforts against the British in Canada. Look at what Napoleon said of that matter and then consider how the British felt about the U.S. then being so accepting of British deserters.

Don't make the U.S. into some idealistic do-gooder, because it's just not the reality. It never was.

The people who deserted wanted to live in a free country under the Constitution, not under a monarchy.

You're making false assumptions, the first assumption is that the U.S. was a free country at that time. The second is that they deserted for political reasons not because of the usually reasons people become deserters.

You are also defending an oppressive empire. Is this not an anti-empire website? Is not Ron Paul an anti-empire candidate?

The Democratic-Republicans and their successor party Were the architects of the biggest expansions of the United States.

I am a defender of national sovereignty, as is Ron Paul. In 1812, America did not have national sovereignty. After the war, we did.

That's just garbage. We had sovereignty.

Lincoln, Wilson, and FDR were pro-empire, they expanded the American empire.

Wilson and FDR maybe, but what territories did Lincoln acquire exactly? Expanding the power of federal government isn't the same thing as expanding territory.

btw - In other posts, the Hartford Convention has been misrepresented.

Who do you think is responsible for that misrepresentation? You say there was no war propaganda, but anyone who knows the history of American newspapers can tell you that's nonsense.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

I am making an argument that the United States was accepting deserters from the British navy at a time of war precisely because they were deserters from the British navy. The U.S. was not only forging papers but engaging in illegal trade. All the while Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were supportive of the French and against the British.

3/4th of those impressed were not British. And if papers were forged, it is no different than a runaway slave forging papers for their freedom. And there is no evidence that Madison and Jefferson had anything to do with these alleged forged papers. And Britian was a greater threat to the US than the French. The French were not kidnapping our sailors. The French navy had been destroyed in 1805 by Nelson. And the French did not have forts on our frontier contrary to treaty (1783).

Hell, the Louisiana purchase only occurred because Napoleon invaded Spain and wrung that territory from them. All the while the U.S. was supportive of efforts against the British in Canada. Look at what Napoleon said of that matter and then consider how the British felt about the U.S. then being so accepting of British deserters.

Sour grapes.

Don't make the U.S. into some idealistic do-gooder, because it's just not the reality. It never was.

Madison and Jefferson were indeed idealistic do-gooders, but sometimes reality got in the way. That is why I advocate study of their presidencies of them. If they couldn't do it, nobody can.

You're making false assumptions, the first assumption is that the U.S. was a free country at that time. The second is that they deserted for political reasons not because of the usually reasons people become deserters.

The US was a free country, excepting slavery. It was the most free country in the history of the world up to that time. There was more economic opportunity in the United States, than in Great Britian. And a better chance to own land. A chance to vote. A chance to take part in public affairs or run for office. Etc.

The Democratic-Republicans and their successor party Were the architects of the biggest expansions of the United States.

Not true. The federal government was very small all the way until the Civil War. The Democratic-republican party provided the ideology for this, as well as the Constitution. They brought us glorious periods in our history, including the 1st term of Jefferson, victory in the War of 1812, the Era of Good Feelings, and Jacksonian democracy. All this time, the states retained their powers intended by the Founding Fathers. Only slavery remained as a major problem.

That's just garbage. We had sovereignty.

We had sovereignty on land, but not at sea. We had about 1000 ships seized on the high seas between 1807 and 1812.

Wilson and FDR maybe, but what territories did Lincoln acquire exactly? Expanding the power of federal government isn't the same thing as expanding territory.

Lincoln added the deep South to the Union. The deep South was not in the Union when Lincoln took office.

Who do you think is responsible for that misrepresentation? You say there was no war propaganda, but anyone who knows the history of American newspapers can tell you that's nonsense.

In a free press, you will have newspapers for and against any issue. MADSION did not do war propaganda. You know what I am talking about. James Madison is the only president to preserve the Constitution and refraim from war propaganda during a major war.

If we in the Ron Paul movement ever expect to stop war propaganda and violations of the Constitution, it would help if we had a concrete example that these things are not needed. We do have such an example; James Madison and the War of 1812.

Apologists for the government today always claims they need to break the Constitution out of necessity. But James Madison proves this is not true.

 

[Naraku]

3/4th of those impressed were not British. And if papers were forged, it is no different than a runaway slave forging papers for their freedom.

It actually is quite different. They were forging papers because they didn't want to fight in the war. They were perfectly fine living in the British Empire otherwise.

Sour grapes.

Really? That's all you have to say?

Madison and Jefferson were indeed idealistic do-gooders, but sometimes reality got in the way.

That's bull. However, it seems you have irrationally romantic notions about post-Revolutionary America so it is no surprise.

The US was a free country, excepting slavery. It was the most free country in the history of the world up to that time.

Wrong.

Not true. The federal government was very small all the way until the Civil War.

As I said the size of federal government has nothing to do with being an empire. However, it was responsible for all the major territorial expansions through war and peace.

The Democratic-republican party provided the ideology for this, as well as the Constitution. They brought us glorious periods in our history, including the 1st term of Jefferson, victory in the War of 1812, the Era of Good Feelings, and Jacksonian democracy. All this time, the states retained their powers intended by the Founding Fathers. Only slavery remained as a major problem.

Someone has eaten up the nationalistic propaganda. The Era of Good Feelings was so named because the Democratic-Republicans had absolute unchallenged power and thus there were not partisan disputes. We also were not victorious in the War of 1812, the British kicked our asses.

Lincoln added the deep South to the Union. The deep South was not in the Union when Lincoln took office.

Seriously, that's your argument? So by reclaiming seceding territories he was actually expanding the United States yet Jefferson buying up massive tracts of land and Polk sparking off the Mexican-American War to take California weren't?

In a free press, you will have newspapers for and against any issue.

They weren't free, they were bought and paid for by party officials. As such they did exactly what was expected of them, destroy the enemies of their masters.

 

[Dieseler]

Remake the poll and add Mel Watt.

 

[Romantarchist]

John Calhoun doesn't deserve to be on this list. Yes his support for slavery was very disturbing, but other than that he was just as much of a strict constructionist as Ron Paul. He was the one who got Andrew Jackson to back off on the "Tariff Of Abominations" and he criticized Jackson for remarks he made that he thought implied that the Union was more important than human liberty.

 

[Galileo Galilei]

John Calhoun doesn't deserve to be on this list. Yes his support for slavery was very disturbing, but other than that he was just as much of a strict constructionist as Ron Paul. He was the one who got Andrew Jackson to back off on the "Tariff Of Abominations" and he criticized Jackson for remarks he made that he thought implied that the Union was more important than human liberty.

You are comparing a tariff to slavery?

 

[Galileo Galilei]

It actually is quite different. They were forging papers because they didn't want to fight in the war. They were perfectly fine living in the British Empire otherwise.

They were so fine with Great Britain that they voted with their feet and came to Madison & Jefferson's "Empire of Liberty".

That's bull. However, it seems you have irrationally romantic notions about post-Revolutionary America so it is no surprise.

I said Jefferson and Madison were idealistic do-gooders who confronted reality. I did not say all of post-revolutionary America was idealistic do-gooders.

We also were not victorious in the War of 1812, the British kicked our asses.

Key American Victories in the War of 1812 (43):

1811 (1)

Battle of Tippecanoe
Part of Tecumseh's War/War of 1812
Date November 7, 1811
Location near modern Battle Ground, Indiana
Result United States victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tippecanoe

1812 (7)

USS Constitution vs HMS Guerriere
Date 19 August 1812
Location Atlantic Ocean
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constitution_vs_HMS_Guerriere

Siege of Fort Wayne
Date September 5 – September 12, 1812
Location Fort Wayne, Indiana
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Wayne

Battle of Fort Harrison
Date September 4 – September 15, 1812
Location Terre Haute, Indiana
Result United States victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Harrison

Raid on Gananoque
September 21, 1812
Gananoque, Ontario
the Americans seized the stores and burned the government depot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Gananoque

Capture of HMS Frolic
USS Wasp captures the HMS FrolicThe capture of HMS Frolic was a naval action fought in the Atlantic of the coast of Virginia on October 18, 1812, between sloops-of-war USS Wasp, commanded by Jacob Jones, and HMS Frolic. The result was an American victory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Frolic

USS United States vs HMS Macedonian
Date 25 October 1812
Location Atlantic Ocean
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_United_States_vs_HMS_Macedonian

HMS Java vs USS Constitution
Date 29 December 1812
Location off the coast of Brazil
Result Captured and burned by the USS Constitution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Java_(1811)

1813 (14)

Raid on Elizabethtown
Date February 7, 1813
Location Elizabethtown
Result Successful American Raid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Elizabethtown

Sinking of HMS Peacock
The sinking of HMS Peacock was a naval action fought in the Atlantic off the mouth of the Demerara River, Guiana on February 24, 1813, between the brigs USS Hornet and HMS Peacock. After an exchange of broadsides during which the British vessel's commander was killed, the Peacock attempted to disengage but was pursued by the Hornet and succumbed to raking fire, sinking swiftly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_HMS_Peacock

Battle of York
Date 27 April, 1813
Location Present day Toronto, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_York

Siege of Fort Meigs
Date 28 April – 9 May, 1813
Location present-day Perrysburg, Ohio
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Meigs

Battle of Fort George
Date May 25 – May 27, 1813
Location Present day Niagara on the Lake, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_George

Battle of Sacket's Harbor
Date 28 May – 29 May, 1813
Location Sackett's Harbor, New York
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sackett's_Harbor

Battle of Craney Island
Date June 22, 1813
Location Portsmouth, Virginia
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Craney_Island

Battle of Fort Stephenson
Date August 2, 1813
Location Sandusky County, Ohio
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_Stephenson

Battle of St. Michaels
Date August 10, 1813
Location St. Michaels, Maryland
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_St._Michaels

Capture of HMS Boxer
Date 5 September 1813
Location off Pemaquid Point, near Bristol, Maine
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Boxer

Battle of Lake Erie
Date 10 September, 1813
Location Lake Erie, near Put-in-Bay, Ohio
Result Decisive American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lake_Erie

Battle of the Thames
Date October 5, 1813
Location Near Moravian of the Thames First Nation in present day Chatham-Kent, Ontario
Result Decisive American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Thames

Battle of Tallushatchee
Date November 3, 1813
Location Mississippi Territory
Result U.S. victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tallushatchee

Battle of Talladega
Date November 9, 1813
Location Mississippi Territory
Result U.S. victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talladega

1814 (17)

Battle of Longwoods
Date 4 March, 1814
Location near Wardsville in present day Southwest Middlesex, Ontario
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longwoods

Battle of Horseshoe Bend
Date March 27, 1814
Location near Dadeville, Alabama
Result Decisive U.S. - Indian victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Horseshoe_Bend_(1814

Capture of HMS Epervier
The capture of HMS Epervier was a naval action fought off Cape Canaveral, Florida on April 29, 1814 between the sloop-of-war USS Peacock and the brig HMS Epervier in which the Epervier was captured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Epervier

Raid on Port Dover
Date 14 May - 16 May, 1814
Location Port Dover, Norfolk County, Ontario
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Port_Dover

Battle of Big Sandy Creek
Date May 29 – May 30, 1814
Location Sandy Creek (town), New York
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Big_Sandy_Creek

Capture of Fort Erie
Date July 3, 1814
Location Fort Erie, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Fort_Erie

Battle of Chippawa
Date July 5, 1814
Location Chippawa, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chippawa

Battle of Caulk’s Field
Date August 31, 1814
Location near Fairlee, Maryland
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caulk's_Field

Battle of Plattsburgh
Date September 6 – September 11, 1814
Location Plattsburgh, New York
Result Decisive American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Plattsburgh

Battle of North Point
Date September 12, 1814
Location North Point, Maryland
Result Strategic American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_North_Point

Battle of Baltimore
Date September 12 – September 15, 1814
Location Baltimore, Maryland
Result Decisive American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Baltimore

The First Battle of Fort Bowyer
Date September 14-16, 1814
Location Fort Bowyer, Alabama
The defeat at Fort Bowyer led the British to decide to attack New Orleans instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Bowyer

Siege of Fort Erie
Date 4 August – 21 September, 1814
Location Fort Erie, Ontario
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_Erie

Battle of Malcolm’s Mills
Date November 6, 1814
Location Oakland, Brant County, Ontario
Result American Victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Malcolm's_Mills

Battle of Pensacola
Date November 7 – November 9, 1814
Location Pensacola, Florida
Result American victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pensacola_(1814)

Battle of Farnham Church
Date December 6, 1814
Location Farnham Church, Virginia
Result United States victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Farnham_Church

Action of 13 December 1814
Date December 13, 1814
Location near Lake Borgne, Louisiana
Result U.S. victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_of_13_December_1814_(Louisiana_Campaign)

1815 (4)

Battle of New Orleans
Date December 23 - January 8, 1815
Location About five miles (8 km) south of New Orleans on the grounds of Chalmette Plantation
Result American victory; British troops and fleet withdraw from Louisiana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_New_Orleans

Siege of Fort St. Philip
Date January 9-18, 1815
Location Fort St. Philip, Louisiana
Result U.S. victory, British flee after failing to reduce the fort.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Fort_St._Philip_(1815)

Capture of Cyane
HMS Cyane was a British warship captured by the USS Constitution on 20 February 1815 during the War of 1812. Cyane was sailing in company with HMS Levant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_Cyane

Capture of HMS Penguin
On March 23, 1815 USS Hornet captured HMS Penguin in a short battle off Tristan da Cunha. This was one of several naval engagements which took place after the War of 1812 had ended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_HMS_Penguin

Again, the president need not violate the Constitution, issue war propaganda, suspend habeas corpus, intern people of a minority race, shut down newspapers, etc, to win a major war.

This is why James Madison is a defender of liberty, while Wilson and FDR are enemies of liberty.

 

[Bucjason]

Everyone knows the evils of slavery. It has little to do with whether slavery is right or wrong. It is a matter of principle.

Is this your constitutional argument?

1787: This is the supreme law of the land and it does not prohibit slavery.
1861: We know what the supreme law of the land has been for the past 74 years However we are a new generation and now that we are in power and we don't care what the law is. We know we do not have enough support to obtain a Constitutional amendment so we are going to impose our moral code and will upon you. By force if necessary.

What is the difference between that and health care? Or any other constitutional argument for that matter. If you believe national health care requires an amendment then you should also believe slavery required one instead of fighting a civil war to impose one. It is about the consistency of law. To amend the law with a proper amendment is one thing but to throw the law out the window is something entirely different.

If you do not support health care because it is not constitutional I can make a principled intellectual argument that you are no better than the people who supported slavery because they argued the same thing. This is one of the reasons the constitution is a failure. No moral consistency.

The Constitution starts with:


It was the Declaration of Independence that stated:


If there is one thing that is perfectly clear from statist history it is might makes right not following the law.

Do you really believe the constitution makes it legal to ENSLAVE your neighbor and deny him every human right the constitution grants YOU?? Are you serious ?? Can you not see the difference between not garanteeing a service , like Health care, and denying another human being EVERY bit of freedom he supposedly has a right to in the declaration of independence???

In my opinion , this paragragh alone justifies the civil war:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Even if you disagree , placing Linclon 1st overall is idiotic , IMO.

"Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors. " - Abraham Lincoln

"In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just - a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless." - Abraham Lincoln

 

[RonPaulFanInGA]

If there are certain states violating the human rights of American citizens and ENSLAVING them , isn't it one of the few justified powers of the federal government to stop that?? Isn't ending slavery something that is worth fighting and dying for if you claim to be a lover of liberty??

Lincoln didn't invade the south over slavery. The first major battle was in July 1861 and ending slavery in the rebelling states (meaning the four slave-holding union states were exempt) didn't become a war goal until after Sharpsburg in September 1862.

Lincoln argued very thoroughly in his March 4, 1861 inaugural address that he had no intention of ending slavery in the states where it existed.

 

[Bucjason]

Lincoln didn't invade the south over slavery. The first major battle was in July 1861 and ending slavery in the rebelling states (meaning the four slave-holding union states were exempt) didn't become a war goal until after Sharpsburg in September 1862.

Lincoln argued very thoroughly in his March 4, 1861 inaugural address that he had no intention of ending slavery in the states where it existed.

I realize this is the justification the pro-confederacy people use. The fact remains that slavery was in violation of the Declaration and everything the Union was founded on to begin with ( equal rights , liberty ,etc.). The fact also remains that , no matter what Lincoln said BEFORE the war to try and avoid it , AFTER the war he DID end slavery. Slavery is as ANTI-liberty and ANTI-libertarian as you can possibly get, so ranking him #1 overall is bullshit. End of Story and unarguable , IMO.

 

[Justinjj1]

I realize this is the justification the pro-confederacy people use. The fact remains that slavery was in violation of the Declaration and everything the Union was founded on to begin with ( equal rights , liberty ,etc.). The fact also remains that , no matter what Lincoln said BEFORE the war to try and avoid it , AFTER the war he DID end slavery. Slavery is as ANTI-liberty and ANTI-libertarian as you can possibly get, so ranking him #1 overall is bullshit. End of Story and unarguable , IMO.

+1

 

[johnrocks]

I think it would be easier to pick a beautiful call girl in a Nevada Brothel than picking the number one Anti-Liberty American from that list.

 

[Son of Detroit]

Why is Hamilton beating Obama? Sure he was a big federalist, but Obama is x10.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

I realize this is the justification the pro-confederacy people use. The fact remains that slavery was in violation of the Declaration and everything the Union was founded on to begin with ( equal rights , liberty ,etc.). The fact also remains that , no matter what Lincoln said BEFORE the war to try and avoid it , AFTER the war he DID end slavery. Slavery is as ANTI-liberty and ANTI-libertarian as you can possibly get, so ranking him #1 overall is bullshit. End of Story and unarguable , IMO.

The fact remains killing 620,000 Americans for conquest is about as anti-liberty and anti-libertarian as you can get.

 

[Austrian Econ Disciple]

Why is Hamilton beating Obama? Sure he was a big federalist, but Obama is x10.

Hamilton proposed a permenant President. He also proposed mercantilism, imperialism, and empire. On top of that, Hamilton subverted the AoC, by hastily calling for a Convention that was supposedly for amending the AoC not abolishing it. Hamilton also called for a Central Banking system. Upon more numerous violations of everything the Revolution stood for. As an aside, he also called for changing the sovereign states into provinces whereby governors would be appointed by the permenant President and the President could veto anything and everything the Governor did. He advocated for the monarchical and tyrannous Government we just fought against.

The top 3:

#1 General Sherman
#2 Abraham Lincoln
#3 Alexander Hamilton