What's Your Take on Romans 13?

Did ours really turn out so good either? We're a murderous empire...

We're probably going to become a dictatorship soon. Granted, "Soon" in the grand scheme of things might be 100 years or more, so I'm not saying we're going to get Josef Stalin tomorrow. But eventually, I think its coming. There's no way we can survive as a democracy at home while being an Empire all around the world.
 
I'd have to disagree. Peter is to be crucified at a later time and he did not resist, though he would have been justified in doing so.

How do you know this?

Notice, when Peter is in prison (2 Peter) he never complains about his destiny or the injustice of his punishment.
I'll have to get back to this later, but with observations from 1 Peter, rather than 2 Peter.

Being that no where in the Bible Peter walks around with a sword, then Jesus tells him to buy one and then, bam, he has one and the Jesus tells him to put it away. It seems to me pretty obvious that Christ told him to have the sword because He ordained that during His arrest, that He had something to teach us through it.
But this doesn't fit with the context of Luke 22:36 at all. Furthermore, all the other gospels talk about the same incident with Peter, without saying anything about Jesus telling him to buy a sword beforehand.
 
Did ours really turn out so good either? We're a murderous empire...

We're probably going to become a dictatorship soon. Granted, "Soon" in the grand scheme of things might be 100 years or more, so I'm not saying we're going to get Josef Stalin tomorrow. But eventually, I think its coming. There's no way we can survive as a democracy at home while being an Empire all around the world.
Well, so was the British Empire.

I'm just saying that history 99% of the time shows no benefit of overthrowing governments, even excessively cruel ones. It is a miracle that Germany and Japan, which were genocidal maniacs, turned out okay after World War II. But China didn't. Russia's Czar (who was cruel) was hell of a lot better than the soviets. Africa is just as bad now than it was being colonized. Cambodia overthrew a king and then got the Khmer Rouge. All of Latin America...the list goes on and on.

I think Bart Simpson had it right after he threw a bunch of water balloon as Nelson in season one. "There are no good wars! Besides the American Revolution, World War II and the Star Wars Trilogy."

Should those 3 exceptions then be used to justify divergence from Scripture when the rest of history shows otherwise? It's like not illegalizing abortion, because 0.0001% of aborted fetuses are the result of incest.
 
How do you know this?


I'll have to get back to this later, but with observations from 1 Peter, rather than 2 Peter.


But this doesn't fit with the context of Luke 22:36 at all. Furthermore, all the other gospels talk about the same incident with Peter, without saying anything about Jesus telling him to buy a sword beforehand.
I will respond, but I'm going to sleep. TTYL.
 
I think Bart Simpson had it right after he threw a bunch of water balloon as Nelson in season one. "There are no good wars! Besides the American Revolution, World War II and the Star Wars Trilogy."

I don't even think WWII was a good war.... lol....
Should those 3 exceptions then be used to justify divergence from Scripture when the rest of history shows otherwise? It's like not illegalizing abortion, because 0.0001% of aborted fetuses are the result of incest.

Since when are ethics utilitarian anyways? As for the incest example, incest isn't a good excuse and so that's a rather silly analogy.
 
Paul was writing to Christians, who were very persecuted, in Rome, the most powerful empire of its time. The likelihood of changing Rome from empire to one accepting of monotheistic faiths was about as likely as winning the lottery, being struck by lightning, and scoring a date with a super model on the same day. Better to live today and carry-on the Gospel through your children and friends than go out and get yourselves killed.
 
So your name is King James... and you get to section "Romans 13".


Do you approve this bit for publication?
 
How do you know this?
It's Church tradition and it is heavily implied in the Gospel of John:
"I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish." (John 21:18)

But this doesn't fit with the context of Luke 22:36 at all. Furthermore, all the other gospels talk about the same incident with Peter, without saying anything about Jesus telling him to buy a sword beforehand.

It fits the context like a latex glove. Please be open minded about this, perhaps the Holy Spirit will open your eyes.

Luke 22
[SUP]
35 [/SUP]And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. [SUP]37 [/SUP]For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’[SUP][d][/SUP] For the things concerning Me have an end.”
[SUP]38 [/SUP]So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

[SUP]49 [/SUP]When those around Him saw what was going to happen, they said to Him, “Lord, shall we strike with the sword?” [SUP]50 [/SUP]And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]But Jesus answered and said, “Permit even this.” And He touched his ear and healed him.

Let's summarize:
Jesus: Did I always provide for you guys?
Disciples: Yeah! Just like that time you sent us without supplies to preach, yet we were want of nothing!
Jesus: Ok, well trust me again and sell those things to buy a sword because we need them so that prophecy may be accomplished.
Disciples: Well, imagine our luck! There are two swords just around the corner right there. Do we still need to buy them?
Jesus: No, two will do it.

4 hours later

Disciples: Judas, you're hella-lame, you betrayed Jesus!
Judas: Sorry guys!
Disciples: Jesus, should we ice these mofos with the two swords, that's surely what you meant!
Jesus: ... [Busy being arrested]
Disciples: Take that!
Jesus: Hey, you must not use the swords, even to permit my arrest.
[SUP] [/SUP]Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? (Exact quotation of parallel account in Matthew 26:52-53.)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the proper context, it is impossible to read Jesus speech about swords any other way because:[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. The reason He gives is so that something in Scripture might be fulfilled (that being that the Son of Man is to suffer and die for sinners)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Peter WAS NOT using a sword he purchased earlier. The disciples literally found the swords three seconds after Jesus told them to go get one. Then they looked to Jesus as if to say, "Is this enough to fulfill Scripture?" and Jesus was like "it is enough."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. The Disciples then use the swords, as they misinterpreted Jesus' arrest as what Christ was foretelling and Jesus tells them not to use them, warning them with a timeless platitude that "those who live by the sword perish by the sword."

It's like divine theater, and it is the opposite of a pro sword/gun/self defense message. It's rather the opposite.
[/FONT]
 
I don't even think WWII was a good war.... lol....


Since when are ethics utilitarian anyways? As for the incest example, incest isn't a good excuse and so that's a rather silly analogy.
Well, then my point is proven. If it is extremely tough to name a good war or a good reason for an abortion, aren't we forced to concede that scripture is right and the whole institution is evil?

That's is not to say that evil never ever comes from good. If I shoot a guy trying to rob me, I get to keep my stuff. If he would have killed my wife if I didn't shoot him, then I save my wife.

But, isn't aggression as a whole obviously the cause of more problems than it solves? So, if we protect ourselves violently, we do not do so justly, but perhaps out of desperation and our own weakness, and would need to give an account on the Last Day, as the Scripture says we must give an account for every act and idle word.

So, Romans 13 taken as a whole has a clear meaning. I don't like it, but it tells us to submit. Even to a government like Nero's. Like Hitler's? I don't know, but that'd be one exception out of how many hundreds of governments? The Scripture is correct and as usual, we are wrong!
 
A quick read of Romans 13:8 shows how this rogue government is not within the confines of one that we are to submit to.
How'd you figure that?

Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
 
There is a reason why the American Revolution was over enlightenment ideals and not Christian ones.

And Paul was writing of a pagan government that not only had no interest in protecting Christianity, but a tendency to suppress it actively and gruesomely.

If God instituted a pagan government that turned Christians into lion excrement, then it's not a big stretch to the point where God also instituted a government based on the idea that when that government becomes destructive to liberty it is the duty of the people to alter or abolish it.

The pattern of our government is supposed to be exactly this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

So what is it that we are supposed to submit to? The government we still have on paper, or the one that was improperly and arbitrarily built on the bodies of 700,000 dead in 1865? Did God institute that government?

I submit that if we are free to ignore what's written down, then we're free to ignore Scripture itself.

Either
1) we are to ignore the government we have on paper, and submit to the government that was instituted in 1865, which means that we're also free to ignore the written instruction of Scripture - and I therefore declare Romans 13 void

Or
2) we are not to ignore the government on paper, just as we are not free to ignore Scripture, which means we are free to actively work toward the elimination of our current anti-liberty government and replace it with one which protects our rights.

Either way, statism loses.
 
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And Paul was writing of a pagan government that not only had no interest in protecting Christianity, but a tendency to suppress it actively and gruesomely.

If God instituted a pagan government that turned Christians into lion excrement, then it's not a big stretch to the point where God also instituted a government based on the idea that when that government becomes destructive to liberty it is the duty of the people to alter or abolish it.

The pattern of our government is supposed to be exactly this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

So what is it that we are supposed to submit to? The government we still have on paper, or the one that was improperly and arbitrarily built on the bodies of 700,000 dead in 1865? Did God institute that government?

I submit that if we are free to ignore what's written down, then we're free to ignore Scripture itself.

Either
1) we are to ignore the government we have on paper, and submit to the government that was instituted in 1865, which means that we're also free to ignore the written instruction of Scripture - and I therefore declare Romans 13 void

Or
2) we are not to ignore the government on paper, just as we are not free to ignore Scripture, which means we are free to actively work toward the elimination of our current anti-liberty government and replace it with one which protects our rights.

Either way, statism loses.

One point I haven't thought about. The government we have now is a long way away from what this country started with. In your point number two it would be the Scriptural duty of Christians to restore our government to the founding fathers original intent.
 
Paul was writing to Christians, who were very persecuted, in Rome, the most powerful empire of its time. The likelihood of changing Rome from empire to one accepting of monotheistic faiths was about as likely as winning the lottery, being struck by lightning, and scoring a date with a super model on the same day. Better to live today and carry-on the Gospel through your children and friends than go out and get yourselves killed.
Exactly.

People taking this advice now as if it were for them to follow, is much like picking up a letter to someone else and following the advice in it.
 
Pastor Chuck Baldwin wrote an entire book on Romans 13, although I haven't read it.
 
Well, then my point is proven. If it is extremely tough to name a good war or a good reason for an abortion, aren't we forced to concede that scripture is right and the whole institution is evil?

That's is not to say that evil never ever comes from good. If I shoot a guy trying to rob me, I get to keep my stuff. If he would have killed my wife if I didn't shoot him, then I save my wife.

Doing that isn't evil.

That argument about the government illegitimately built in 1865 is also a valid point, Chuck Baldwin argues this as well that Romans 13 means for Americans to submit to the constitution, not to the modern powers.

All that said, what does this mean for a Christian in England, or China, or Iran? (Engalnd is significantly better than Iran or China, but whatever...) Are they obligated to obey no matter what since their governments were not founded the same way as ours?
 
there is a time for peace (romans 13)

and there is a time for war (jesus & money changers)
 
Well, so was the British Empire.

I'm just saying that history 99% of the time shows no benefit of overthrowing governments, even excessively cruel ones. It is a miracle that Germany and Japan, which were genocidal maniacs, turned out okay after World War II. But China didn't. Russia's Czar (who was cruel) was hell of a lot better than the soviets. Africa is just as bad now than it was being colonized. Cambodia overthrew a king and then got the Khmer Rouge. All of Latin America...the list goes on and on.

I think Bart Simpson had it right after he threw a bunch of water balloon as Nelson in season one. "There are no good wars! Besides the American Revolution, World War II and the Star Wars Trilogy."

Should those 3 exceptions then be used to justify divergence from Scripture when the rest of history shows otherwise? It's like not illegalizing abortion, because 0.0001% of aborted fetuses are the result of incest.
Ironically, the last Russian Czar (Nicholas I) freed the serfs, brought about a number of reforms, and wasn't really that cruel. Of course, he and his family were violently murdered during the Revolution.
 
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