What's Going on at the Bundy Ranch?

[pcosmar]

Not sure why you keep trying to put people on the defensive here. I didn't say he was there. Was going by what he said in the update he posted. I am neither defending nor condemning. As far as I am concerned everything is hearsay because I wasn't there..were you?

I read his update.
It pissed me off on several levels.. I was not at all impressed with it.

 

[Carlybee]

I read his update.
It pissed me off on several levels.. I was not at all impressed with it.

Well...I think trying to keep emotions out of it would be prudent at least until we've heard all there is to hear. Of course I am not the militia whisperer so I don't have a dog in the hunt other than being an interested bystander at this point. Will watch the video before commenting further.

 

[Tod]

Well, after watching the "Bombshell" video and after watching (about half, so far) of Stewart's debriefing, I would under no circumstances align myself with the black-shirted guy; he sounds like a hot head to me whose words are mostly divisive.

At the same time, given OK's identity crisis and the fact that this mission appears to be at cross purposes with their mission statement, I don't see OK as being positioned to lead ranch defense either.

 

[phill4paul]

Well, after watching the "Bombshell" video and after watching (about half, so far) of Stewart's debriefing, I would under no circumstances align myself with the black-shirted guy; he sounds like a hot head to me whose words are mostly divisive.

At the same time, given OK's identity crisis and the fact that this mission appears to be at cross purposes with their mission statement, I don't see OK as being positioned to lead ranch defense either.

Considering there was an actual assault, a threat to use arms and the video where it was suggested to shoot the O.K.members in the back I would say whoever is running the OP, whether singular or council, is doing a shitty job of commanding.
All those that took part in the assault, all those that threatened violence, should already be on a bus home.
There is just NO excuse for it.

 

[pcosmar]

Considering there was an actual assault, a threat to use arms and the video where it was suggested to shoot the O.K.members in the back I would say whoever is running the OP, whether singular or council, is doing a shitty job of commanding.
All those that took part in the assault, all those that threatened violence, should already be on a bus home.
There is just NO excuse for it.

That has always been the military response to desertion in the face of the enemy.
I was told as much but a Platoon Sgt when I was active duty long ago.

But I believe that it was just rhetoric ,, and anger at what was perceived as Cowardice.

They cut and Ran. and that meeting was of various Militia leadership present.

The "Black shirt guy" as some call him is Ryan Payne,, one or the leaders of Operation Mutual Aid,, which organized this defense of the Bundy Ranch in the fiirst place. He is Bundy's personal Bodyguard and chosen Militia Liaison .

The coalition leadership votes on operational decisions. And folks there were upset and disgusted by what the OK Leadership did.

Not with Oath Keepers in general.. Several of whom stayed. And several were there at the first call.
A lot of Militia consider themselves oath keepers whether they belong to an organization or not.
Many do not like or trust the Organization..

That was a meeting,, and a vote, to respond to what was considered desertion. A
And from another report,, it had been resolved.
Though form what I am seeing from the OK leadership,, I'm not so sure.

 

[phill4paul]

That has always been the military response to desertion in the face of the enemy.
I was told as much but a Platoon Sgt when I was active duty long ago.

But I believe that it was just rhetoric ,, and anger at what was perceived as Cowardice.

They cut and Ran. and that meeting was of various Militia leadership present.

The "Black shirt guy" as some call him is Ryan Payne,, one or the leaders of Operation Mutual Aid,, which organized this defense of the Bundy Ranch in the fiirst place. He is Bundy's personal Bodyguard and chosen Militia Liaison .

The coalition leadership votes on operational decisions. And folks there were upset and disgusted by what the OK Leadership did.

Not with Oath Keepers in general.. Several of whom stayed. And several were there at the first call.
A lot of Militia consider themselves oath keepers whether they belong to an organization or not.
Many do not like or trust the Organization..

That was a meeting,, and a vote, to respond to what was considered desertion. A
And from another report,, it had been resolved.
Though form what I am seeing from the OK leadership,, I'm not so sure.

Bullshit. There was absolutely no call for violence, or threats of violence, against volunteers. And those that participated, those that instigated should be expelled. If these guys were under Jerry then either he cannot control them or does not wish to control them. You do not allow dissension in the ranks to get to that point. Period.

 

[tod evans]

I sincerely hope all this doesn't have a negative effect on the Bundy family....

 

[Carlybee]

Sounds to me after watching that video that there was a big cluster fck that included a bunch of jackasses itching to turn it into a violent event. Not good for the cause nor the perception. I am not buying the cut and run diatribe either. Sounds more like a some ego issues.

 

[pcosmar]

You do not allow dissension in the ranks to get to that point. Period.

And I agree.
It is unfortunate that it came to be, and should be a learning experience for all.

I believe that the harsh words were spoken in anger at a perceived betrayal. And some conversation happened as a result,, as I posted earlier.

http://outpost-of-freedom.com/blog/?p=823#comment-28649

I understand, from the militia liaison, that the problem has been resolved, and the Jerry DeLemus has become cooperative and agreed to a shared command — working well with others.

I am pleased that this turned out the way that it did, and I Applaud Jerry for his change of tactic and realizing that the responsibility, and command, must be shared by those able to demonstrate their abilities to participate, together, to achieve the objective.

As difficult as this troublesome as this subject has become, it was a discussion that had to take place. We may not have time to address this at the next event, so with this now openly on the table, we have an example of cooperation that will serve to avoid the same, in the future.

So, again, my applause to Jerry and to all of the others who participated in finding a solution to a problem, that could have, in the future, been very destructive.

Gary Hunt, Outpost of Freedom

I would hope that everyone is learning.. But sadly it seems some are trying to justify and place blame.

 

[klamath]

Sure glad we aren't counting on repelling a foreign invasion with the above demonstrated CNC and unit cohesion.

 

[Tod]

And I agree.
It is unfortunate that it came to be, and should be a learning experience for all.

I believe that the harsh words were spoken in anger at a perceived betrayal. And some conversation happened as a result,, as I posted earlier.

http://outpost-of-freedom.com/blog/?p=823#comment-28649



I would hope that everyone is learning.. But sadly it seems some are trying to justify and place blame.

A leader does not allow his emotions to control him like that. At the minimum he should not be in a leadership role.

As for

That has always been the military response to desertion in the face of the enemy

I absolutely believe that such authoritarianism has no place in a free society.

 

[Pericles]

Sure glad we aren't counting on repelling a foreign invasion with the above demonstrated CNC and unit cohesion.

The militia movement has 3 or 4 major factions in it, and the factions don't agree as to strategy and the TTPs that may be utilized.

One faction is the III% for which Vanderboegh http://sipseystreetirregulars.blogspot.com/ is a big voice, and supports the Oathkeeper approach as a PSYOP on our side if nothing else. This faction will not fire unless fired upon, will not target family members of "bad guys" or the general public, and would probably more often than not, be willing to incorporate in to a state level sponsored military force answering to a state governor.

Another faction styles itself as the real III%, has a guy with this site as a big voice http://iiipercent.blogspot.com/ which is more aggressive in attitude, would be willing to target family members to teach a lesson, possibly attack public infrastructure as part of guerrilla warfare, and generally insist on not answering to any other group other than those they recognize, except for the adherents to Gary Hunt and his Continental Congress movement http://moderncommitteesofcorrespondence.blogspot.com/2011_07_01_archive.html which wants various militias to accept command from them. I think the Payne character fits in this Gary Hunt group, which is trying to get as many militias as possible into their network, with some notion that an organization made of of self selected representative for their fellow citizens has any more legitimacy than any other organization.

And then there are what I will refer to as the secret squirrel militias who will do whatever they decide to do when they decide to do it and appear not to intend to be answerable to anybody but themselves.

Ironically, all of the factions, and almost all militias profess loyalty to the idea of the US Constitution in some fashion. Therefore it is not surprising that you find most of the prior service guys in the III% of the Vanderboegh faction more often than not, and the "moles" in the more radicalized groups because they are more likely to do something or by trying to control other groups are a source of intel.

 

[pcosmar]

The militia movement has 3 or 4 major factions in it, and the factions don't agree as to strategy and the TTPs that may be utilized.

Some good points Pericles. But even AWRM has been trying or at least suggesting some unification and national organization.

The Feds have done their work well in sowing distention though,, and there is little trust for anyone not personally known.
And shit like the BBQ Militia pulled reinforce that.

I have been reading some of Gary Harts stuff,, and some is quite good. Worth reading and considering at least.
http://outpost-of-freedom.com/Vortex.htm

Another "faction" that I'm hearing about is the American Spring movement. I am not sold on that idea though,, and am watching to see if it turns into anything at all.

Hart Has been following the Ranch and reporting on it.

 

[donnay]

Here is the latest OK video:

http://youtu.be/4HkSAewoESg

Is there another link? This video has been removed.

 

[Tod]

Is there another link? This video has been removed.

It was replaced with an updated version of the same video (added some text)

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I would hope that everyone is learning.. But sadly it seems some are trying to justify and place blame.

You mean like my friend Pete who keeps trying to stick the OK's with the label "deserters?"

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Considering there was an actual assault, a threat to use arms and the video where it was suggested to shoot the O.K.members in the back I would say whoever is running the OP, whether singular or council, is doing a shitty job of commanding.
All those that took part in the assault, all those that threatened violence, should already be on a bus home.
There is just NO excuse for it.

OK should never have been part of the ground op in any case, it's not their mission. They should have been identifying oathkeepers in the local County Sheriff's department, and liaising with local police in order to effect a Constitutional outcome.

 

[belian78]

I'm sorry Pete, but I'm watching an interview with Ryan Payne in an article about them setting up checkpoints (which doesn't do a thing to prove they are doing that, at all) I don't get a very good feel from that guy either. I've been staying out of this until now, just seeing that vid. I have no proof other than what my gut tells me watching and listening to him.

 

[Deborah K]

Well..I guess one could look at this all as a grand experiment in a Shtf scenario. In which case, we may be screwed. The last thing this situation needed was this internal drama, however if as Elias surmised we should assume that all militias may be infiltrated, then it was bound to happen. I am not a militia person. I did donate to OK for them to use as they see fit. Will see how this continues to unfold, perhaps this is what happens when a bunch of independent minded cusses attempt to centralize.

It's possible that this unfolding situation allows us to surmise who the good guys really are. A sort of, 'separating the wheat from the chaff', so to speak.

 

[Deborah K]

OK should never have been part of the ground op in any case, it's not their mission. They should have been identifying oathkeepers in the local County Sheriff's department, and liaising with local police in order to effect a Constitutional outcome.

I thought that's what they were doing, along with Mack.