What's Going on at the Bundy Ranch?

[steph3n]

http://outpost-of-freedom.com/blog/?p=826#comments

Pretty much reinforced what I already said. One side is throwing shit on anyone that isn't exactly like them. It takes many approaches to win a battle or a war, getting droned isn't good for moving forward.

 

[Tod]

Well I have been checking back at the OKs FB page for the video that was promised.

Now the promise of that video has been removed.

That is one thing about a lot of FB pages....you never know who set them up or who is posting.

For example, last summer someone set up a Cop Block page for my small town. I don't know who and I've never heard of anyone actually doing any cop-block activities here. Almost all the posts are about things elsewhere and only one was for a local incident that I can't even verify happened.

 

[Carlybee]

Well I have been checking back at the OKs FB page for the video that was promised.

Now the promise of that video has been removed.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Oath-Keepers/182483688451972

Well that whole thread is gone. OK has a forum on their main site but I'm not registered there.

 

[Philhelm]

Interesting course of events. However, I do not believe that they would order a drone strike, not at this stage of the game. That would be over-the-top obscene and counterproductive for them.

 

[pcosmar]

Well that whole thread is gone. OK has a forum on their main site but I'm not registered there.

Yes it is..
And questions being asked about it are not being answered,, as yet.

And yes,, I would like to hear. As would a lot of OK members from what I am seeing.

 

[phill4paul]

Interesting course of events. However, I do not believe that they would order a drone strike, not at this stage of the game. That would be over-the-top obscene and counterproductive for them.

I could certainly see Eric Holder signing off on an order to authorize. Not necessarily planned but an authorization that if certain conditions were met a green light is given.

 

[donnay]

I could certainly see Eric Holder signing off on an order to authorize. Not necessarily planned but an authorization that if certain conditions were met a green light is given.

Me too. No doubt.

 

[limequat]

FBI has admitted to using drones. But agreed, that would be over the top.
I think we'll see continued infiltration and war by attrition.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Brother, how familiar are you with the logistics of building a bunker that will actually withstand direct missile fire? If you spread out far enough to minimize casualties, you have now opened your perimeter up and one strike will leave your line WIDE open. I understand where you heart is, I really do. But, there have been a lot of people die that didn't need to because they used their heart instead of their head.

He's really not, but I wasn't bringing it up. You spread out enough to make drone strikes really expensive, but retain a layered defense in depth, or if the threat is bad enough void the target altogether and meet at a rally point. As to bunkering, 5 direct hellfire strikes may not equal a bunker buster, but anything you can build without heavy Earth-movers and a week's notice is toast. Fortify just enough to safe from the initial explosion and any shrapnel from it, and spread out so there is 100yd between posts, and then 30yd back, another line of posts 100yd apart. Say 4-8 rovers to watch the line and plug holes. Set up 4 roving sentries to cover 90° each, requiring them to met on their end-points, wait on the other guy until he gets there and if he doesn't get there raise a minor alarm.

Not the best, really. A 3GW solution in a 4GW world, but not quite as bad as the Maginot line. Maintain full layered defenses while a hellfire can only ever kill 1 guy, and it's easy to plug the hole. You just have to have people who understand fields of fire.

 

[Intoxiklown]

He's really not, but I wasn't bringing it up. You spread out enough to make drone strikes really expensive, but retain a layered defense in depth, or if the threat is bad enough void the target altogether and meet at a rally point. As to bunkering, 5 direct hellfire strikes may not equal a bunker buster, but anything you can build without heavy Earth-movers and a week's notice is toast. Fortify just enough to safe from the initial explosion and any shrapnel from it, and spread out so there is 100yd between posts, and then 30yd back, another line of posts 100yd apart. Say 4-8 rovers to watch the line and plug holes. Set up 4 roving sentries to cover 90° each, requiring them to met on their end-points, wait on the other guy until he gets there and if he doesn't get there raise a minor alarm.

Not the best, really. A 3GW solution in a 4GW world, but not quite as bad as the Maginot line. Maintain full layered defenses while a hellfire can only ever kill 1 guy, and it's easy to plug the hole. You just have to have people who understand fields of fire.

Oh, the means is there. But the logistics of it is what I'm addressing. And I don't mean to belittle those people, as I'm sure some of them are tough as nails, but do you really want to count on some 250lb to 300lb guy whose training consists of watching the Rambo movies to hold his position and maintain his field of fire under duress?

 

[Tod]

One thing is apparent to me: Oathkeepers has an identity crisis. I saw that during my brief tenure on their forums and I think we are seeing it here.

Read about the group:

About Oath Keepers

Oath Keepers is a non-partisan association of current and formerly serving military, police, and first responders who pledge to fulfill the oath all military and police take to “defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” That oath, mandated by Article VI of the Constitution itself, is to the Constitution, not to the politicians, and Oath Keepers declare that they will not obey unconstitutional orders, such as orders to disarm the American people, to conduct warrantless searches, or to detain Americans as “enemy combatants” in violation of their ancient right to jury trial. See the Oath Keepers Declaration of Orders We Will Not Obey for details.

It says NOTHING about actively going to the defense of people like the Bundy's against Oathbreakers. There seemed to be a shift a while back when Stewart called for the creation of groups (I wish I could find that post on their web page...edit, found it: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...tion-Preparedness-Teams&highlight=Oathkeepers) and with the call to go to the federal memorials in support of the vets who were visiting when they were "closed".
Additionally, the blog is not filled with cases of Oathkeepers keeping their oaths in the face of departmental or political opposition. Instead, it has all sorts of things from seed banking to financial events news to the EPA wood burning thing, and on and on......things that don't seem to have any direct tie to the mission of the group.

Originally Posted by Danke

It's Okay, Sit Tight... The Sheriff's Coming, And He'll Save Us All!

In my brief stint on the Oath Keeper Ohio forums (I closed my account there today), when I asked about the part of the "OATH KEEPERS MOLON LABE PLEDGE" that says "We will interpose ourselves between the people and the oath breakers and traitors who try to disarm them." I was told in no uncertain terms that this was Stewart Rhodes' personal pledge and that it did not represent the membership of Oath Keepers and that Oath Keepers was not an organization that would actually take an active role in defending against unconstitutional law enforcement.



I can only conclude that the web page you found nails the situation pretty darn accurately and that when the going gets tough, we have only ourselves to rely on.

 

[Tod]

Oh, the means is there. But the logistics of it is what I'm addressing. And I don't mean to belittle those people, as I'm sure some of them are tough as nails, but do you really want to count on some 250lb to 300lb guy whose training consists of watching the Rambo movies to hold his position and maintain his field of fire under duress?

I suspect they would not even know what hit them.....one minute all is fine, the next, smithereens.

 

[pcosmar]

He's really not, but I wasn't bringing it up.

Good information Gunny,, except that the Hellfire Missile is,,and was designed as an anti Tank weapon It has a HEAT charge.

And yes,, it will fuck up a building or a vehicle, it does not have much shrapnel of it's own. It is light weight (aprox 100 lbs,, with most of that being Rocket engine and guidance) which is why it is used on drones.

It could destroy the house or a barn from the blast alone or make a crater in the ground..
It is not an anti-personnel weapon and is piss poor in that role,, except for dense crowds like a wedding or funeral or shopping center.

Foxholes would be a good defense,, except for a direct or very near strike.

To have any appreciable success on the Ranch target you would need to Carpet Bomb the area.. or spend time over target with several Warthogs.

And you still need a team on the ground to clean up..

 

[pcosmar]

I suspect they would not even know what hit them.....one minute all is fine, the next, smithereens.

Bullshit.
At best you would get a few to several,, the rest will dive for cover.

 

[Uriel999]

This discussion made me realize...maybe the USMC isn't completely retarded by making us dig fighting holes in the 21st century...

As far as people leaving to hygiene and come back...I see nothing wrong with that. If they coordinated a solid security they could easily just run at 25%. Have 25% go hygiene and keep 50% resting as QRF. If you have drones coming to bomb you though, you move to an alternate position. Then you standby to counter attack.

 

[Tod]

This discussion made me realize...maybe the USMC isn't completely retarded by making us dig fighting holes in the 21st century...

As far as people leaving to hygiene and come back...I see nothing wrong with that. If they coordinated a solid security they could easily just run at 25%. Have 25% go hygiene and keep 50% resting as QRF. If you have drones coming to bomb you though, you move to an alternate position. Then you standby to counter attack.

Realistically, unless you have a mole feeding you intel, how are you going to know if a drone strike is coming in order to relocate? And, in the open desert, how does one hide from satellites or surveillance drones? And what if your electronics are wiped out moments beforehand?


Is there any reason a water truck could not be parked at the ranch and rationed showers available on a schedule? It sounds to me as though a lot of people came there quite unprepared. Were I going, I would have brought the kit from my (small) boat, which includes my solar shower and basically everything I need to live for at least a couple weeks at a time. Water could be filtered from the river, as a last resort.

 

[Intoxiklown]

This discussion made me realize...maybe the USMC isn't completely retarded by making us dig fighting holes in the 21st century...

As far as people leaving to hygiene and come back...I see nothing wrong with that. If they coordinated a solid security they could easily just run at 25%. Have 25% go hygiene and keep 50% resting as QRF. If you have drones coming to bomb you though, you move to an alternate position. Then you standby to counter attack.

LOL

I dug more than my share in the Army. An E-Tool is a handy thing. Can provide you a place to sleep in relative safety, and makes one nasty mark in hand to hand.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

Good information Gunny,, except that the Hellfire Missile is,,and was designed as an anti Tank weapon It has a HEAT charge.

And yes,, it will fuck up a building or a vehicle, it does not have much shrapnel of it's own. It is light weight (aprox 100 lbs,, with most of that being Rocket engine and guidance) which is why it is used on drones.

All correct, right, the only shrapnel it would really generate is desert rocks picked up in the expansion shockwave; and also why ~70ish yards is MORE than enough spread - my drawing was if anything out of scale by showing the Hellfire radius too large. A hellfire is about the only real option for a hot drone strike right now, hence why it made no sense, and why it was stupid of Stewart to take the drone strike bait.

It could destroy the house or a barn from the blast alone or make a crater in the ground..
It is not an anti-personnel weapon and is piss poor in that role,, except for dense crowds like a wedding or funeral or shopping center.

Foxholes would be a good defense,, except for a direct or very near strike.

To have any appreciable success on the Ranch target you would need to Carpet Bomb the area.. or spend time over target with several Warthogs.

I suppose that really depends on what you are trying to do to the ranch. You don't need to carpetbomb a position to make it untenable. Where is their water coming from? Deny them what they need to stay, and they will have to go. Take out any sources of cover from their direction, preserve sources of cover from your own. Identify and target leadership first, and the resistance will plummet in effectiveness. Take out Bundy and family in a single strike, and what do these people have left to guard? (remember, I'm the one who said believing the drone strike was stupid, I'm just covering the logistics here) The stuff that they would want done with drones wouldn't require carpet-bombing; but it's not smart to think that they would want to do a hot drone strike in this situation. For 1000 reasons.

And you still need a team on the ground to clean up..

That's axiomatic. The two-uses in Japan would have been an aberration. Training dictates you go in and clean up after a nuke.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

This discussion made me realize...maybe the USMC isn't completely retarded by making us dig fighting holes in the 21st century...

As far as people leaving to hygiene and come back...I see nothing wrong with that. If they coordinated a solid security they could easily just run at 25%. Have 25% go hygiene and keep 50% resting as QRF. If you have drones coming to bomb you though, you move to an alternate position. Then you standby to counter attack.

LOL no, they really aren't, but nothing will make you piss and cuss faster than trying to dig a fighting hole on the side of a semi-dormant volcano at Pohakuloa Hawaii in the snow. Trying to picture the crack/whistle of rounds coming downrange while trying to break through chunks of old lava flow...

Problem with a fighting hole is you can't maneuver one, so once you are zeroed, you had best venture out and find alternate cover if you can.

 

[pcosmar]

LOL

I dug more than my share in the Army. An E-Tool is a handy thing. Can provide you a place to sleep in relative safety, and makes one nasty mark in hand to hand.

The ranch has heavy equipment on hand (Backhoes, Cranes).. Defensive positions could be constructed in short order.
And in fact should have been already.