What To Do When You Are Attacked Personally in a Debate?

Quark

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Dec 24, 2012
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I'm pretty young (20 years old) and quite new to political debates. I educate myself as much as possible reading books on economics and politics that support my moral philosophy (libertarianism.) Often my good friend/housemate (who's much older) and I have political discussions. He describes himself as a "moderate" and it is quite clear that he is. Particularly of interest was a discussion on the necessity of central planning with zoning. He was once a part of a zoning board for his municipality, and because of this he strongly supports the central planning that goes on in the board. I politely, one day, said that I don't believe central planning is a good solution because it has negative affects on the economy and the property rights of individuals and consequently I can't sympathize with his stories involving his time on the zoning board. We got into an elevated argument in regards to this discussion. And I ended it by noting that it is likely a difference in our philosophies and forms of knowledge that add to our dissension, and that we will get nowhere in such a discussion. So the other night, on the news, there was a story about a man being bothered by the flashing lights of a shop close to his house. The man tried to ask the business-owner to turn off the flashing at night time, so that it wouldn't bother his and his wife's sleep. The business owner refused. Then the man went to several of his local government's meetings pleading his case. Nothing came out of it. In the end, the man went outside with a sign telling people to boycott the business. Instantly, my roommate said that this is why central planning and regulation is necessary. There should be an ordinance that says a sign within a few hundred feet of a residence should only be so bright. I chose to not discuss it with him. The next day he inquired again, because somehow we got onto the topic. I said that I don't want to share my opinions because I feel as if it would be a waste of time, which he took as me not wanting to talk with somebody I disagree with. He kept asking what MY "solution" to this man's problem would be. I kept telling him that if I gave him my ideas of a solution right there, off the top of my head, he'd pick and pick at anything it doesn't address, and unless I wrote an essay my thoughts would not accurately be expressed, fully, so I'd rather refrain from doing so. Eventually my efforts to refrain from entering the conversation failed, and I started providing my points. Eventually the attacks became personal:

I was told that "you don't care about others", " you're antisocial", and "you think that people should only care about themselves", which he knows are not true, but he says that when it comes to politics I have these behaviors.

In addition to that, there is a constant belief of his that my arguments are too abstract and that they have nothing to do with the real world. He devalues the books I read as just "on paper" theories, and that they might or might not be able to work. He also thinks I go off-topic when I explain the foundations of my reasoning, and he can't connect the foundations and general arguments with the specific discussion. For example, often I talk about spontaneous order when he professes chaos without regulation, and he thinks of it as an abstract concept rather than a real one.

On the other-hand, whenever I mention something that I read online, he instantly assumes that I hadn't checked the sources for reliability or my bias is inhibiting my ability to check the sources accurately. It doesn't matter if my sources are the mainstream media, or some other more obscure credible ones: he'll write them off as biased because of my views.

In every other aspect of life, we get along perfectly fine and do not argue, but when it comes to politics I feel as if I am attacked personally. I've recently tried to avoid such discussions, but it does not seem to work. How does one deal with such negative attitudes toward libertarian views, particularly those that affects one's views of your personal character?
 
Limit your time around him. Not a good friend, that's it.

From personal experience, my life has been so much better after ignoring this type, even if they were 'good friends.'

I've had people fabricate the most insane lies about me in an argument, completely opposite of my true character.

Some people would rather rip you apart then entertain the thought that they are wrong, not worth your time.
 
Limit your time around him. Not a good friend, that's it.

That's the problem. If he weren't such a good friend in every other aspect, I'd do just that. But he is definitely one of the best friend I've had so far, and we get along quite fine otherwise.
 
Wow, you're going to get some good practice, both for debating and for personal relationships!

You could just tell him your situation: "I feel like I'm being attacked a lot."

You are being the calm, collected one, and that's always good and an advantageous situation. In fact, it can be too advantageous. Often the other person being extremely calm and reasonable can just make the angry one angrier. So instead you can use your advantage of emotional control to deliberately and rationally rise to, not meet him, but approach closer to his level. Express some passion, some excitement. Raise your voice a little bit. This will probably, ironically, bring his level down.

Anyway, there's lots of ideas to try. I would try to really understand him, understand his thoughts, get inside his head.
 
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When he brings up such topics tell him you simply do not want to discuss it with him. You have your view points and opinions (based upon your research) that are polar opposite of his indoctrinated view points and opinions, and not worth getting into a fist fight over.

Using reverse psychology on people helps. If he persists then you will have to prove to him your view points and opinions are based upon your research and show him. If he still doesn't want to believe any of it, let it go. You have planted seeds in his head.
 
I'm pretty young (20 years old) and quite new to political debates. I educate myself as much as possible reading books on economics and politics that support my moral philosophy (libertarianism.) Often my good friend/housemate (who's much older) and I have political discussions. He describes himself as a "moderate" and it is quite clear that he is. Particularly of interest was a discussion on the necessity of central planning with zoning. He was once a part of a zoning board for his municipality, and because of this he strongly supports the central planning that goes on in the board. I politely, one day, said that I don't believe central planning is a good solution because it has negative affects on the economy and the property rights of individuals and consequently I can't sympathize with his stories involving his time on the zoning board. We got into an elevated argument in regards to this discussion. And I ended it by noting that it is likely a difference in our philosophies and forms of knowledge that add to our dissension, and that we will get nowhere in such a discussion. So the other night, on the news, there was a story about a man being bothered by the flashing lights of a shop close to his house. The man tried to ask the business-owner to turn off the flashing at night time, so that it wouldn't bother his and his wife's sleep. The business owner refused. Then the man went to several of his local government's meetings pleading his case. Nothing came out of it. In the end, the man went outside with a sign telling people to boycott the business. Instantly, my roommate said that this is why central planning and regulation is necessary. There should be an ordinance that says a sign within a few hundred feet of a residence should only be so bright. I chose to not discuss it with him. The next day he inquired again, because somehow we got onto the topic. I said that I don't want to share my opinions because I feel as if it would be a waste of time, which he took as me not wanting to talk with somebody I disagree with. He kept asking what MY "solution" to this man's problem would be. I kept telling him that if I gave him my ideas of a solution right there, off the top of my head, he'd pick and pick at anything it doesn't address, and unless I wrote an essay my thoughts would not accurately be expressed, fully, so I'd rather refrain from doing so. Eventually my efforts to refrain from entering the conversation failed, and I started providing my points. Eventually the attacks became personal:

I was told that "you don't care about others", " you're antisocial", and "you think that people should only care about themselves", which he knows are not true, but he says that when it comes to politics I have these behaviors.

In addition to that, there is a constant belief of his that my arguments are too abstract and that they have nothing to do with the real world. He devalues the books I read as just "on paper" theories, and that they might or might not be able to work. He also thinks I go off-topic when I explain the foundations of my reasoning, and he can't connect the foundations and general arguments with the specific discussion. For example, often I talk about spontaneous order when he professes chaos without regulation, and he thinks of it as an abstract concept rather than a real one.

On the other-hand, whenever I mention something that I read online, he instantly assumes that I hadn't checked the sources for reliability or my bias is inhibiting my ability to check the sources accurately. It doesn't matter if my sources are the mainstream media, or some other more obscure credible ones: he'll write them off as biased because of my views.

In every other aspect of life, we get along perfectly fine and do not argue, but when it comes to politics I feel as if I am attacked personally. I've recently tried to avoid such discussions, but it does not seem to work. How does one deal with such negative attitudes toward libertarian views, particularly those that affects one's views of your personal character?

You will get better at debating as you get older .Every one of those "abstract" arguments are really not that "abstract" if you know how to explain them.Taxes are not abstract they are "racketeering done by armed people",subsidies are stealing from the miners table to give to the farmers table and so on.If he starts attacking on a personal level just attack back in the same manner all those "you want kids to die" can be used just as easily if you know how to use them.

Just remember always to attack in a debate while he has to explain him self,also never get angry always smile at everything he says like it is a joke.Most importantly never argue about politics with just one other guy because a guy who would argue about politics 99% of the time has made his mind the guys who are sitting aside and hearing are the ones who need to be convinced in a debate and who decide who wins a debate.
 
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Personal attacks are a good indicator that they've lost the argument, or dont know enough about the topic to debate the content. Sometimes, its also just fun to attack one another. If you can master the art of discussion, you shall have a happy marriage. People have all sorts of methods to move discussion in a way that serves their argument, you just have to recognize it. My wife is a master of this technique - personal attacks are just one method/distraction.

Knuckle sandwich.

Sweep the leg.
 
My response to him on most issues would be: "we will just have to agree to disagree and since I don't think either of us will change the others opinions, I see no merit in having the conversation."

I do feel he is slightly abusive so if this is someone you are potentially in a relationship with, this is something to consider. It is a controlling personality trait.
 
That's the problem. If he weren't such a good friend in every other aspect, I'd do just that. But he is definitely one of the best friend I've had so far, and we get along quite fine otherwise.

I've disowned many friends and family due to them being idiots. If I really want to maintain a friendship, I don't talk politics. If they persist, I lose 'em.
 
Why would you fight family and friends over something as trivial as politics?
 
As a moderate, your friend is a statist and your main roadblock is that you don't see the state as the solution that he does. He probably see the central planners as solving problems, but ignores the problems they create. When he claims that you don't care about people, he is inferring that his solutions are more caring than yours. You could point out how central planning destroys people and how uncaring it is to some parties. Look at how his real life example of central planning has worked out in Detroit.

Something I like to do is take someone's own arguments and positions and then use them against them. What core beliefs does he have? Learn those and then show him how he violates them and contradicts himself.
 
@Quark,

You have found yourself in a position to consider your stance on the issues.

Sometimes, a person gets attacked personally because the other side has no good argument. Other times, it is because neither side has a good argument so no other form of debate is left, but to personally attack. Not everyone will continue the debate if it has come down to personal attacks (seems a bit like you, but unlike the other).

So, perhaps, it's time to step back and find the words to describe what you intuitively know, such as "spontaneous order", etc...

What I have found, in my personal inquires into my own intuition, is that our natural language is not "English" (or whatever "native" language), but is instead that language between the mind and the heart and the gut that we were born with. Bringing those things that we have resolved (or not) to the forefront of the mind only (forefront in that communication that can be expressed to others) can be as enlightening to your own consciousness as it will be for others, once it is done. :)
 
Thank you very much for the replies so far. I'll definitely consider everything posted so far. I think the biggest issue for me is that until now all of my political discussions have been in an academic atmosphere, one in which ideology is discussed and applied, and one in which all parties stay relatively calm and intellectual about their reasoning and beliefs, using the dialogue as an inquiry. This conversation is with somebody whose experience with politics is purely experiential, and his political philosophy is not rooted in deductive theories but his personal experience. For example: to him, he sees the work and effort put into the zoning board from his experience on the board and thinks it must be fair and good, and I even sense a little bit of pride in his tone, but to me I think of the larger picture and how a central body controlling the community harms more than it helps, regardless of the intentions of its members. Maybe he views my attack on the concept of zoning boards as personal, because of the pride he had in his contribution to it, and that is the reason for his attacks toward me. I did attempt to use his same attacks toward him, though. For example we were talking about the death penalty, and I said off-hand, "You said that I don't care about others, yet you think it's alright that innocent people are acceptably murdered by the state just so the guilty are also murdered, is that the ideal of a person who cares about others?" Another example is that he often criticizes me for complaining about the system, yet not actively protesting. I tell him by sharing my ideas I help change the system, which he diminishes as not anything at all. Yet he will complain about the shale industry pollution and its tether to government, yet he does nothing about it other than express his disdain for it, similar to how I will complain about things that bother me in regards to the system. I brought that hypocrisy on his part up once and then he ended the conversation, never to use that argument again.
 
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Interesting story. The fact is that the example your friend wants to use to show why central planning is necessary proves that central planning doesn't work. The man in question went to the "central government" to get help....and was ignored. That your friend can't see this is proof that he's too invested in the system to admit he is wrong about anything. It's like Obamacare. The fact that people are losing jobs and healthcare due to Obamacare just "proves" to some people just how "necessary" state run healthcare is.

Now, let's take your friend's "solution". How bright should the light be? "So bright" isn't an answer. At some point someone would have to pick an actual brightness value. Well...people are different. Say if this man and his wife are more sensitive to light than the average person? And why stop with lights? Car noise bothers some people. I was looking at a house my parents were thinking of buying the other day, and a person that was with us said "I couldn't live this near a highway. The noise would keep me up." Well...does that mean there needs to be an ordiance that no house can be built near a highway just because someone is bothered by it?

And, here's a thought. Why can't the man with the house not tint his windows and or get new window shades if the shades he has now doesn't block out enough light? Why can't he plant some hedge bushes in the line of sight to the business? I mean, really, some people work at night and sleep during the day. Does there need to be a city ordinance to block out the sun during the day when some people need to sleep?

So I would point out to your friend that while his "solution" exists, the ability to pass a new ordinance, so far it hasn't worked (no new ordinance has been passed) and the man in question could just fix the problem himself with some landscaping and re-moddeling. You won't win the argument, but you might plant a seed. Here's another thought. Contact the man who's doing the boycott and offer to help him with light fitlering landscaping and window treatments. Wouldn't that be a coup if a libertarian solved a problem that central planning had already failed to solve?

I'm pretty young (20 years old) and quite new to political debates. I educate myself as much as possible reading books on economics and politics that support my moral philosophy (libertarianism.) Often my good friend/housemate (who's much older) and I have political discussions. He describes himself as a "moderate" and it is quite clear that he is. Particularly of interest was a discussion on the necessity of central planning with zoning. He was once a part of a zoning board for his municipality, and because of this he strongly supports the central planning that goes on in the board. I politely, one day, said that I don't believe central planning is a good solution because it has negative affects on the economy and the property rights of individuals and consequently I can't sympathize with his stories involving his time on the zoning board. We got into an elevated argument in regards to this discussion. And I ended it by noting that it is likely a difference in our philosophies and forms of knowledge that add to our dissension, and that we will get nowhere in such a discussion. So the other night, on the news, there was a story about a man being bothered by the flashing lights of a shop close to his house. The man tried to ask the business-owner to turn off the flashing at night time, so that it wouldn't bother his and his wife's sleep. The business owner refused. Then the man went to several of his local government's meetings pleading his case. Nothing came out of it. In the end, the man went outside with a sign telling people to boycott the business. Instantly, my roommate said that this is why central planning and regulation is necessary. There should be an ordinance that says a sign within a few hundred feet of a residence should only be so bright. I chose to not discuss it with him. The next day he inquired again, because somehow we got onto the topic. I said that I don't want to share my opinions because I feel as if it would be a waste of time, which he took as me not wanting to talk with somebody I disagree with. He kept asking what MY "solution" to this man's problem would be. I kept telling him that if I gave him my ideas of a solution right there, off the top of my head, he'd pick and pick at anything it doesn't address, and unless I wrote an essay my thoughts would not accurately be expressed, fully, so I'd rather refrain from doing so. Eventually my efforts to refrain from entering the conversation failed, and I started providing my points. Eventually the attacks became personal:

I was told that "you don't care about others", " you're antisocial", and "you think that people should only care about themselves", which he knows are not true, but he says that when it comes to politics I have these behaviors.

In addition to that, there is a constant belief of his that my arguments are too abstract and that they have nothing to do with the real world. He devalues the books I read as just "on paper" theories, and that they might or might not be able to work. He also thinks I go off-topic when I explain the foundations of my reasoning, and he can't connect the foundations and general arguments with the specific discussion. For example, often I talk about spontaneous order when he professes chaos without regulation, and he thinks of it as an abstract concept rather than a real one.

On the other-hand, whenever I mention something that I read online, he instantly assumes that I hadn't checked the sources for reliability or my bias is inhibiting my ability to check the sources accurately. It doesn't matter if my sources are the mainstream media, or some other more obscure credible ones: he'll write them off as biased because of my views.

In every other aspect of life, we get along perfectly fine and do not argue, but when it comes to politics I feel as if I am attacked personally. I've recently tried to avoid such discussions, but it does not seem to work. How does one deal with such negative attitudes toward libertarian views, particularly those that affects one's views of your personal character?
 
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