What passes for "Debate" in Murica's colleges these days

[Todd]

Why does it matter how they speak? Whether you agree with them or not is entirely different. They were speaking in African American Vernacular English to reinforce the topic they were discussing I believe, but whether or not that was the reason is irrelevant. I remain completely indifferent to a bunch of kids debating for sport.

It matters because language/speech is tied to thought and we are teaching an entire generation that basically the fastest talker with the most "points" is the best argument. Argumentation and logical reasoning are not races.

Debate is a type of arugment tied to deductive reasoning. True thought requires contemplation. I'm a firm believer that most people are at their best thinking ability when they contemplated a subject before they actually speak. Speech is tied to thought.

Do your really believe that someone can contemplate what they are saying or what others are saying at the speeds they are blabbering about? Maybe you can do this, but I assure you this isn't how most human beings interpret information about the world around them.

This "art form" of debate amounts to people regurgitating words off a screen. Was there contemplation about the words they were writing during their research? Probably....but what difference does that make in a forum where the presentation is done "verbally".


On a side note and not at all directed at your post:

You know, I'm sick of reading on blogs etc about any criticism of this style of debate as "racist". They could have been white Honey Boo Boo trailer trash. Ignorance and stupidity knows NO race.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Why does it matter how they speak? Whether you agree with them or not is entirely different. They were speaking in African American Vernacular English to reinforce the topic they were discussing I believe, but whether or not that was the reason is irrelevant. I remain completely indifferent to a bunch of kids debating for sport.

There is English. What they were speaking was NOT.

Be serious here. They made no points. I was expecting to hear a college-level logical debate. That is not what I heard at all.

 

[Matthew5]

Why does it matter how they speak? Whether you agree with them or not is entirely different. They were speaking in African American Vernacular English to reinforce the topic they were discussing I believe, but whether or not that was the reason is irrelevant. I remain completely indifferent to a bunch of kids debating for sport.

But it's not "sport". It's not like a someone who shoots hoops in their local church league. When they leave that event, they (they being any person who participates in this style, regardless of race) still think and act in this irrational method.

It's self-centered extremism that the liberals are pushing on young people, not that they need any encouragement.

 

[juleswin]

I do not care for speed talking debates but I can understand why someone would give high marks for it. It shows that one can think fast, talk fast and listen fast. The problem with the 2 teams that were in the finals is that not only did they just talk fast, they also tried to use checking your privilege arguments, spoke in slang in this case ebonics and didn't seem to be addressing topic in question. Take those 3 tactics out and I dont think there will be a controversy.

I think there will be some reforms after this whole dust up but I seriously don't see speed talking going away so don't have any high hopes of seeing a return to old school debate style

 

[aGameOfThrones]

These "debaters" *might* be the the most intelligent orators in the culture that worldstarhiphop promotes. At best they can hope to outwit these geniuses:

I understand they were debating economics but, after watching that video I decided to check if my doors were locked.

 

[fisharmor]

silly rabbit for believing that effective communication in such circles meant anything better than "Ahma be bustin' niggiz' up... ahma fuk'em'up"

I've never had trouble communicating with them. Oh, there have been plenty of times they must have thought I'm deaf because I keep asking them to repeat what they said, but as far as forming connections with them, forming relationships... I've never had a problem.

But then I credit that to the way I dress and carry myself. I don't think I come across as just another white guy. They must relate to that or something.

The ignorant little brat has no idea what the untied shoelaces meant and that being white, he of all people should have shunned it.

And about the same time there were rules among punks as to what the color of the laces in your boots meant. Something about the white laces meaning you were for white power.
Don't forget how only gay guys had their right ears pierced.
And don't get me started on all the rules for what clothes white kids could wear.

I can't tell you how relieved I was when 1991 rolled around and all that shit changed. All of a sudden it was ok to wear clothes that weren't cutting off your circulation, people cared a lot less about what you looked like, abnormality was not only tolerated but even celebrated, and there was even decent music on the radio.

Some of that music on the radio was hip hop. And some of it was violent.
The reason why they became superstars is because of white people. Hip hop was a footnote in music history until the Beastie Boys came around, before Run DMC started putting electric guitar riffs in their tracks to make it more accessible to white people.
And nobody can seriously say that Snoop Dogg, Biggie Smalls, or Tupac got to the top strictly on the black dime. It's precisely because white people bought those albums that they did so well.

But just like any other music, under the veneer of the top acts you're going to find authenticity. You're not going to find what's going on in a scene just by looking at the lead actors. Everybody has heard of those acts in the last paragraph, but very few of us have heard of Common, Pharcyde, Pete Rock, Lauryn Hill, The Roots, and a bunch of others. All of these acts are at worst neutral on violence.

What I'm getting at is that there are strong forces at work in the black community to stop violence and to clean the place up, but that's not what's getting subsidized by white America.

I'll always remember when I went to orientation at Temple University in 1992. I had a horrible time there and decided not to go based on one weekend in Philadelphia. But as I trudged around campus in my Double-H brand issues, I had a rather gigantic, rather scary looking black guy walk up to me and tell me how much he liked my boots. I was dumbfounded that a ghetto looking guy I had been told for 18 years was probably my enemy would find combat boots as a point of overlapping interest.

So I'm not clear on where I'm going here, except to say that perhaps you had too averse a reaction to shoes. I don't know that the symbol you attribute to it was all that prevalent: Run DMC was a really early NY based group and they didn't wear laces at all, and were quite vocally against racism. But I'm sure an awful lot of white people made friends with black people on nothing more than shoes.

 

[osan]

I've never had trouble communicating with them.

Who said anything about having trouble communicating? I could speak the speak back when most whites didn't even know there was such a thing. I'm talking about a palpable lack of intellectual ability due in large part to the nature of the spoken language, as well as that of the narrow channels to which certain groups confine themselves by their own choice.

But then I credit that to the way I dress and carry myself. I don't think I come across as just another white guy. They must relate to that or something.

I'm not even sure what that is supposed to mean. I dress and comport myself as I do. It isn't "white" or "kitchen sink". It's just me.

And about the same time there were rules among punks as to what the color of the laces in your boots meant. Something about the white laces meaning you were for white power.

Perhaps you are confusing punk with skinhead? I've never known anyone of "punk" vintage to hold such positions... but then, I was in NYC and LA during those days. Perhaps it was different elsewhere.

Don't forget how only gay guys had their right ears pierced.

No. I had three in the left and two in the right. I am nowhere approaching gay.

And don't get me started on all the rules for what clothes white kids could wear.

Perhaps we just gre up in very different times because I don't recall such restrictions.

I can't tell you how relieved I was when 1991 rolled around and all that shit changed. All of a sudden it was ok to wear clothes that weren't cutting off your circulation, people cared a lot less about what you looked like, abnormality was not only tolerated but even celebrated, and there was even decent music on the radio.

Yeah, you an dI are of very different generations, it would seem. To me the 1990s marked a decade of some of the worst popular music in human history. It was simply awful, on the whole. Whiny, hand-wringing nonsense with really shitty tunes carrying it. 2000s brought crap like "emo" into the mix. Don't get me wrong, there was a lot of really good music, but very little of it was popular. And of course we had to place upon the altar of common praise all the worst that rap had to offer, ignoring the small percentage that was actually good. House music was relegated to the dustbin in favor of that hideous crap called "hiphop". Back in college in Harlem, we all made fun of hiphop - we despised it - and by "we" I mean my circle, especially from the radio station of whom I was one of about only 5 white people. The rest, all from Bronx, locals, Brooklyn... all black, and all hated hiphop without a single exception that I can recall. It was shit, we knew it, and left it on the floor where it belonged. Not no mo'. I guess times change in such ways.

The reason why they became superstars is because of white people.

Which should be an embarrassment for whites and a signal to others not to bite the hands that feed them. But we live in an era where reason has been lain up the roadside, abandoned. Thanks, but I'll pass on all that.

But just like any other music, under the veneer of the top acts you're going to find authenticity.

But shit is still shit, authentic or otherwise.

What I'm getting at is that there are

strong forces at work in the black community to stop violence

and to clean the place up, but that's not what's getting subsidized by white America.

No, there are not. I cannot speak for where you came up, but I did in NYC and northern NJ at a time when there were NG troops in Newark, snipers on rooftops, and it was not safe to be out even if you were black, much less anything else. NOTHING has changed in all those 4 decades. In fact, things are not only worse, but FAR more so. What standards of decency such people had in those days are now completely gone. The old world is dead to these people and they mourn not the least of it, but rather cheer for their newfound "freedom".

I agree that there is a lot of talk to the effect you cite, but it is meaningless, empty chatter. Do you think there is ANYONE on this planet who could talk sense to those people? I can tell you upfront that such a person does not exist. Jesus hisownself would fail and sadly conclude that the only path to them is a good whoopin'. I gew up in it - I was part of it and it was part of me and I know it intimately well. It is ignorance, blind avarice, violence, weak ego, bullshit, and general criminality raised to a cultural norm worthy of high praise from a great plurality of the people marinaded in it. I could go on for days reciting chapter and verse the foundations upon which ghetto culture is founded and the examples from my firsthand experience in it.

The ONLY thing that is going to jerk some of those people back to reality will be a disruptive event wherein they will be essentially faced with the choice to change or be extinguished from the earth. Of course, the same can be said for many others as well. It is a seemingly sad characteristic of human beings that for some things they change only when to do otherwise means certain death... and even then. Just look at boozers and other addicts. Many would rather die than change.

I'll always remember when I went to orientation at Temple University in 1992. I had a horrible time there and decided not to go based on one weekend in Philadelphia.

Temple's really bad - right by Germantown.

But as I trudged around campus in my Double-H brand issues, I had a rather gigantic, rather scary looking black guy walk up to me and tell me how much he liked my boots. I was dumbfounded that a ghetto looking guy I had been told for 18 years was probably my enemy would find combat boots as a point of overlapping interest.

There are cool and decent people in all places. But statistically speaking, that can be meaningless when the average example is not.

So I'm not clear on where I'm going here, except to say that perhaps you had too averse a reaction to shoes. I don't know that the symbol you attribute to it was all that prevalent: Run DMC was a really early NY based group and they didn't wear laces at all, and were quite vocally against racism. But I'm sure an awful lot of white people made friends with black people on nothing more than shoes.

No, I didn't. I saw what was coming, and indeed it came and here we are in 2014, a nation turned into a comparative shithole, not because people chose this in some organic fashion, but because they were manipulated into the choice, which says nothing good about any of the actors, manipulators and manipulated combined.

Ghetto culture was shoved down our throats through a vigorous campaign of marketing. Shame on us for having opened our wallets on that one.

 

[fr33]

I've never had trouble communicating with them. Oh, there have been plenty of times they must have thought I'm deaf because I keep asking them to repeat what they said, but as far as forming connections with them, forming relationships... I've never had a problem.

But then I credit that to the way I dress and carry myself. I don't think I come across as just another white guy. They must relate to that or something.

I have had a problem with communicating more than once. The problem seemed to stem from speaking to them or even making eye contact. I have literally had a dude threaten my life for looking at his eyes. He called me a nigga multiple times like they do in the video while threatening me. This was in a town of only 16,000 people. It's one of the most insane memories that I have. The most basic form of human interaction was not allowed and was worth threatening my life. It's the craziest thing I've ever witnessed.

 

[Antischism]

stuff

Indeed, I found it much more interesting than some of the standard debates I've seen so-called politicians having.

Unless it's the GOP gubernatorial race in Idaho:



Who needs The Onion when you have real life?

 

[James Madison]

These "debaters" *might* be the the most intelligent orators in the culture that worldstarhiphop promotes. At best they can hope to outwit these geniuses:

I'm starting to think that Darwin guy was full of shit.

 

[jclay2]

This explains some of the reasoning behind why it's done.

This is a complete joke. Clearly, these kids have never taken a programming or math class. Solutions and arguments are judged by their content which is NOT equivalent to the number of words you can spray from your mouth in 60 seconds.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Indeed, I found it much more interesting than some of the standard debates I've seen so-called politicians having.

Unless it's the GOP gubernatorial race in Idaho:



Who needs The Onion when you have real life?

That was pretty bad.

I'd still argue "Chocolate covered watermelons" and "tin foiled chicken wings" and Aunt Jemima whooping ass, was far more ridiculous.

Right?

 

[osan]

Indeed, I found it much more interesting than some of the standard debates I've seen so-called politicians having.

Unless it's the GOP gubernatorial race in Idaho:

Who needs The Onion when you have real life?

I wil not argue with you that there are others as bad or even worse. That, however, was not the point, which was that the characters in the OP video were not "debating". They were on a self-absorbed rant, spewing meaningliess, seething-with-anger-and-envy hatred as they attempted to make a point that had no apparent connection to the topic at hand. "Debate" actually means something specific, and what they were doing was not it. Redefinition of "debate" is not valid.

It would have been as illuminating to have been able to see the expressions on the judges' faces. I can see it now... a panel of white pissywink liberals sitting there with those dull smiles as the tears well up in their otherwise vacant eyes as they fight to deny their more honest thoughts: "thank you for the opportunity to show the world my genetically superior white largess, oh ye little niggras of zero clue, but whom I shall now raise on high in god-like fashion before the world... not that I care about such things, of course, for I am so selfless..."

 

[osan]

I have literally had a dude threaten my life for looking at his eyes.

Yo... dat 'cuz you doggin' d'nigga. Niggiz be bustin' niggiz up f'dat shit. Daswen shit gettin' reel n d'croove be spillin'.

 

[tod evans]

Whatchu say Willis?

 

[GunnyFreedom]

See, I don't blame the kids here at all, they are just operating under the stupid rules they were presented with. It's the adult advisors and judges who decided they were OK with this and let it spin out of control who are at fault. As a kid, you tend to operate under whatever paradigm they stick you in, and that's basically what these kids are doing.

This "debate format" is not according to race. EVERYBODY who does these does that now. The first time the judges let this 'shotgun' approach go by, and then awarded the team extra points for 'spreading' it became inevitable the direction these contests would go. This is absurd and disgusting, but place the blame where it belongs -- not the students but the officials who are OK with this mockery of reason, and who have allowed it to go this far.

As far as I am concerned, the students here are victims of lazy careless officials, and the consideration of this as though it were real 'debate' does these kids an enormous disservice.

 

[BamaAla]

This is a complete joke. Clearly, these kids have never taken a programming or math class. Solutions and arguments are judged by their content which is NOT equivalent to the number of words you can spray from your mouth in 60 seconds.

The hell does programming or math classes have to do with a certain brand of policy debate?

Clearly you didn't pay attention; fast talking is the key to winning these competitions.

 

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

The hell does programming or math classes have to do with a certain brand of policy debate?

Clearly you didn't pay attention; fast talking is the key to winning these competitions.

It should be quality, not quantity. If I wanted a 3 page article on an issue I'd just look it up. These kids would get smarter playing Tetris.

 

[BamaAla]

It should be quality, not quantity. If I wanted a 3 page article on an issue I'd just look it up. These kids would get smarter playing Tetris.

Maybe, maybe not; who is to say if they get smarter or not? That isn't even the goal of a policy debate; the point is to win.

 

[Vanguard101]

This is a good example of "spreading" which is the art of talking fast