What passes for "Debate" in Murica's colleges these days

See, I don't blame the kids here at all, they are just operating under the stupid rules they were presented with. It's the adult advisors and judges who decided they were OK with this and let it spin out of control who are at fault. As a kid, you tend to operate under whatever paradigm they stick you in, and that's basically what these kids are doing.

This "debate format" :rolleyes: is not according to race. EVERYBODY who does these does that now. The first time the judges let this 'shotgun' approach go by, and then awarded the team extra points for 'spreading' it became inevitable the direction these contests would go. This is absurd and disgusting, but place the blame where it belongs -- not the students but the officials who are OK with this mockery of reason, and who have allowed it to go this far.

As far as I am concerned, the students here are victims of lazy careless officials, and the consideration of this as though it were real 'debate' does these kids an enormous disservice.


Something else that is evolving is those rubbermaid bins they tote around. The rules allow teams to bring printed matter to the competition, but are usually not specific on how much, so they will wheel those things in on a dolly. 1 or 2 members act as the index, so when putting together a rebuttal, someone knows exactly where in their files to go. The more recent competitions, I have been seeing laptops, so I guess they will start moving away from the hard copies.
 
See, I don't blame the kids here at all, they are just operating under the stupid rules they were presented with. It's the adult advisors and judges who decided they were OK with this and let it spin out of control who are at fault. As a kid, you tend to operate under whatever paradigm they stick you in, and that's basically what these kids are doing.

There is much grok in what you write, but not 100%. Those kids are not innocent victims. They know the score and in typical young-person fashion are pushing the envelope to see what they can pull off. Granted, this is what "kids" do (teens are not kids at all, IMO), but they know the difference between innocent pushing of the limits and that done with malicious scheming. I would call what I saw in the video the latter... or are we to believe that being black, they are genetically too intellectually deficient to understand that they were going off topic? Cannot have it both ways. I believe they knew precisely what they were doing, that it was fucked, and that they did not care. I know the traits too well to be fooled.

This "debate format" :rolleyes: is not according to race.

Agreed, but the content of their presentation was all about race where the subject matter was about something else.

EVERYBODY who does these does that now. The first time the judges let this 'shotgun' approach go by, and then awarded the team extra points for 'spreading' it became inevitable the direction these contests would go. This is absurd and disgusting, but place the blame where it belongs -- not the students but the officials who are OK with this mockery of reason, and who have allowed it to go this far.

I agree that officials carry most of the blame, but some goes to the debaters. The coaches who encourage this should also taste the whip. Put it this way, had my daughter gone into debate and I had witnessed her "debating" in this manner, I would have given her coach 24 hours to get out of town or be killed. Seriously, I may well have ended up in jail as I would have left him with not a tooth of which to speak. Lead my child down the path of graceless, grasping corruption and I will break your bones.

The message here, of course, is that winning is everything and that it matters not how you achieve it. It is a disgusting philosophy worthy of only the lowest forms of human life.

As far as I am concerned, the students here are victims of lazy careless officials, and the consideration of this as though it were real 'debate' does these kids an enormous disservice.

Only partly. They could also choose not to go that way. They just choose otherwise and that is most definitely on them... again, unless you want to concede that they are too stupid to dope this out for themselves.
 
Something else that is evolving is those rubbermaid bins they tote around. The rules allow teams to bring printed matter to the competition, but are usually not specific on how much, so they will wheel those things in on a dolly. 1 or 2 members act as the index, so when putting together a rebuttal, someone knows exactly where in their files to go. The more recent competitions, I have been seeing laptops, so I guess they will start moving away from the hard copies.

You shouldn't have to read entire documents into the record, it is enough that they exist, are onhand and are credible. The basic argument for any point no matter how complex can at least be sketched in under a minute. Highlight the argument, not the citations. To me, the primary purpose of intellectual debate is to arrive at truth. Not necessarily to win. One would think that if this purpose of debate "to arrive at truth" would have taken hold in America it would have been in the pursuit of justice. Nevertheless that has become the most win-hungry debate arena man has ever known, with the desperate lying, cheating, and stealing to increase their conviction rates.

CED feeds out to trial lawyers. What if the officers of the court all made it their first duty just to find the truth?

Probably end up with a few more righteous convictions, and way way fewer unrighteous convictions.
 
You shouldn't have to read entire documents into the record, it is enough that they exist, are onhand and are credible. The basic argument for any point no matter how complex can at least be sketched in under a minute. Highlight the argument, not the citations. To me, the primary purpose of intellectual debate is to arrive at truth. Not necessarily to win. One would think that if this purpose of debate "to arrive at truth" would have taken hold in America it would have been in the pursuit of justice. Nevertheless that has become the most win-hungry debate arena man has ever known, with the desperate lying, cheating, and stealing to increase their conviction rates.

CED feeds out to trial lawyers. What if the officers of the court all made it their first duty just to find the truth?

Probably end up with a few more righteous convictions, and way way fewer unrighteous convictions.

Yeah I was kind of thinking the same thing. The whole point of a debate is to prove something is right/wrong, not to "Win" If 2 teams are debating opposite sides, then that means the issue can be won both ways, which makes no sense logically. Then it becomes a game of who has the stronger opinion.
 
You shouldn't have to read entire documents into the record, it is enough that they exist, are onhand and are credible. The basic argument for any point no matter how complex can at least be sketched in under a minute. Highlight the argument, not the citations. To me, the primary purpose of intellectual debate is to arrive at truth. Not necessarily to win. One would think that if this purpose of debate "to arrive at truth" would have taken hold in America it would have been in the pursuit of justice. Nevertheless that has become the most win-hungry debate arena man has ever known, with the desperate lying, cheating, and stealing to increase their conviction rates.

CED feeds out to trial lawyers. What if the officers of the court all made it their first duty just to find the truth?

Probably end up with a few more righteous convictions, and way way fewer unrighteous convictions.
Kind of interesting that "debate" as we know it began in Athenian courts of law where defendants had to defend themselves against plaintiffs using oratory and rhetorical skills.
 
OMG

This is absolutely ridiculous. My debate teacher from high school would roll over in her grave.







Whatthehellwasthat? Uh uh, Icouldntevenunderstandwhattheywerearguingaboutbecausetheywereconstantlysayingniggathisandniggathat. Uh uh, seriouslyifthatiswhatpassesfordebateinourAmericaneducationalsystemthenIfearforthefutureofthenextgenerationintheareasofpublicpolicylawgovernmentandanyotherdisciplinewhereclearconciseandsubstantativecommunicationisparamounttoinfluencingandestablishinganythingthingofimportanceforthegreatergood. Uh uh, thatisjustsad. Uh uh, itslikerapbattlingintermingledwithsnapsonapsandDefPoetryJamonapseudointellectuallevel. Uh uh, 'Mericaindeed.
 
In Praise of the Dying Art of Civil Disagreement
by Carl R. Trueman - 5/18/15

I spent the first half of last week at a seminar at an Ivy League divinity school, where a friend and I gave a presentation on ministry and media. I had resolved before speaking that I would refer early on in my presentation to the fact that I belong to a denomination which does not ordain women. My discussion of ministry would be incomplete if I didn't mention this subject, though I knew my comment would draw fire at a seminar with ordained women present.

Sure enough, one of the women ministers present challenged me with some vigor on my position. For a few minutes we exchanged trenchant but civil remarks on the subject.We each spoke our minds, neither persuaded the other, and then we moved on to the larger matter in hand: The use of modern media in the church. The matter of my opposition to women’s ordination never came up again in the remaining two days of the seminar.

Later that evening, a young research student commented to me that it was amazing to see such a trenchant but respectful disagreement on an issue that typically arouses visceral passions. He added that he and those of his generation had “no idea” (his phrase, if I recall) how such things should be done. Later in the week, my youngest son confirmed that he too had never seen civil disagreement on a matter of importance in the university classroom. This is an ominous, if fascinating, indictment, for I had simply done what I had seen modeled when I was an undergraduate: Vigorous disagreement in the classroom followed by friendly conversation in the pub. If we no longer have a university system which models ways of civil engagement on such matters, then the kind of civic virtues upon which a healthy democracy depends are truly a thing of the past.

Why is civil disagreement so hard? It cannot simply be a matter of dogmatic certainty. The woman minister and I were quite convinced of the correctness of our respective positions, both at the beginning and at the end of our exchange, yet we later enjoyed a delightful conversation over a glass of wine at the post-seminar reception. No, the failure of civil disagreement cannot be a function of certainty.

I think the lack of civil disagreement in the classroom is best understood as a function of larger social and political trends. As I have noted on this site before, oppression is now a psychological category. This subverts the crucial moral difference between an actual crime, a speech crime, and (increasingly) a thought crime. It has also pressed an already pragmatic philosophy of education into an instrument of politicized therapy.

When you add this to the American tendency—right and left—to resolve difference by law court, then the kind of “live and let live” culture which a healthy liberal democratic legal system is supposed to support, ironically ends up as its exact opposite: A world where in the name of individual freedom everything is legally policed in a manner which increasingly restricts the possibility of individual diversity.

... those who hold even a single belief which the panjandrums of the culture find obnoxious are of necessity essentially defined by that, no matter how marginal it might actually be to their overall social existence and no matter how many other virtues they might embody. And we should note the role of social [sic] media in all of this: Disembodying debate, pushing clichés to the fore, reducing personal risk. It is so easy to demonize those with whom one disagrees when one does not have to look them in the eye or engage what they actually say.

Universities should be the very places where such things should not apply. ... They should be places where debate is part of the way of life, and where one has to live shoulder to shoulder with those with whom one differs. Yet they have become the very places where this inability to disagree is now apparently cultivated as a positive virtue. The truly educated person is now no longer the person who understands an opposing viewpoint even as he rejects it. For even to understand an alternative viewpoint is to collude in the oppression which such an opinion embodies.
...
More: http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/fir...l-disagreement
..
 
Oh Christ, I remember this. The wonders of diversity! The Socratic method? Reason and evidence? Actually having to debate the fucking topic of discussion? Euro-centric concepts created by a bunch of evil white males! You let the blacks debate whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want or you're a racist!
 
the blacks

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