What passes for "Debate" in Murica's colleges these days

[nayjevin]

If there's a time constraint personally I would think it most valuable to learn to balance rushed speaking with effective communication and prioritization of relevant points.

 

[Todd]

I'm not sure what the problem is. All I saw was a stylized debate, taken in a specific artistic direction. I actually thought it was pretty interesting.

Then enter the rap poetry in an "art" class.

 

[fisharmor]

Remember, do not hate the player, hate the game. This team seemed to have played the game in the most efficient way to score the highest point and they won.

Ok, there's a point to be made here, sure.
If you watch Olympic fencing or judo matches, they bear very little resemblance to their original incarnation.

The difference there, though, is that it's been quite a few years since fencing or judo were immediately valuable life skills.

That's part of what made the whole MMA explosion so interesting: the fact that a bunch of guys who all studied particular forms with associated rules were then thrown into a free-for-all with very few rules, and it was clear in a lot of cases that people with Nth degree black belts were completely unprepared for a real fight.

I personally would prefer a standard debate, but I'm pretty indifferent to this. The goal is to win the debate, which they seem to have done.

The ostensible purpose of a debate team is to prepare the participants for real debates.
These kids are going to real schools. And they're doing this.
If any of these kids ends up getting a law license and does that shit in front of a judge, he's going to get a contempt charge. Or if he doesn't, what jury is going to listen to this nonsense? Most people are like you, Antischism: they respond to the same debate style that people of all languages across the world have responded to for over 3000 years.

There's a larger issue at work here, and it's about whether we're going to sit by and let scoring points in a game become the eradication of established rules of conduct that were laid down millennia ago by people who frankly weren't all that white.

Once again, Mike Judge called it....

The one thing I can say is that ghetto culture has destroyed this land. I watched it escape. I watched it nurtured and disseminated into the greater population and now it is considered "normal".

There are things I'm inclined to write, but will hold my fingers at bay.

Yeah, be careful there...... we have friends in the hip hop community.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

I dunno, it seems pretty common in the debate world to do some sort of stylized thing (it's been happening for decades, really). They do their research and write up their arguments, but the delivery in the actual debate is not the norm, which I think is fine if that's what they want to do. I personally would prefer a standard debate, but I'm pretty indifferent to this. The goal is to win the debate, which they seem to have done. If they provide a strong argument which can't be countered, regardless of the delivery, then they've accomplished what they set out to do.

The point of a debate is to change the opinion of the audience ('Winning' is secondary and stems from that). The purpose is to persuade an audience with skill, reason, and facts.

They didn't provide any argument, certainly not a strong one.

 

[nayjevin]

Yeah, be careful there...... we have friends in the hip hop community.

Oh how I would love to see a rap battle debate between KRS-One and some establishment hip hop hack.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

That may be so, but if that's how they wanted to stylize their debate, and they enjoyed it, I don't really see the issue. There are plenty of 'proper' debates to watch or listen to.

This was SUPPOSED to be a "proper debate". They're calling THAT a proper debate. That's NOT a proper debate. If you're going to have a debate, then have a debate. Don't just do a bunch of random shit for fun. This was the national freaking championship. People don't go to debates to watch kids have fun seeing how fast they can talk. They go there to watch debates and, sadly, this is what people are now calling a debate. It's just not.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I guess I don't see what the big deal is since this is by far not the norm. I just saw it as some kids having fun doing some sort of avant-garde take on debates.

It was the national championship. They're doing it for far more serious reasons than you realize. There are professors that teach this because they think "proper debates" reinforce white privilege, so the solution is to, obviously, abandon logic and go with a rant about social norms. The sad thing is, they were doing a debate on presidential war powers. Instead, they ended up talking about "nigga authenticity" basically the whole time. Is that your idea of fun?

Personally, I suspect that you are trying to justify it to yourself to avoid believing that society is circling the drain. Well, it's time to face the music because that's what this signalizes, really. We are dead as a society. All rational thought is becoming nonsense.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I dunno, it seems pretty common in the debate world to do some sort of stylized thing (it's been happening for decades, really). They do their research and write up their arguments, but the delivery in the actual debate is not the norm, which I think is fine if that's what they want to do. I personally would prefer a standard debate, but I'm pretty indifferent to this. The goal is to win the debate, which they seem to have done. If they provide a strong argument which can't be countered, regardless of the delivery, then they've accomplished what they set out to do.

I don't think you understand. This debate "style" is based on the absolute rejection of the point-counterpoint debate system. They're not making arguments which can't be countered. They're engaging in nonsensical yelling matches which are then judged by purely subjective standards.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Like 14 people would have known about this if no one had bitched online.

It's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen (a guy literally rapped about chocolate watermelons,) but they seem to be having fun, and they're simply exploiting the rules and structures of the game, so more power to them. Can you imagine what the internet would have been like when the first forward pass was thrown or the triple option was introduced?

That said, I don't really see this spilling over to the halls of Congress or the UN any time soon.

They're not exploiting the rules, they're ignoring them. This was a national championship. Did you notice that the subject of the debate was supposed to be presidential war powers? I just don't understand it. You're right, it's ridiculous, and it's indicative of what liberalism has done to people's brains.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

If there's a time constraint personally I would think it most valuable to learn to balance rushed speaking with effective communication and prioritization of relevant points.

You would think the point would be to give ample time for the debaters to explain their points clearly. It matters what you say, not how much of it you say or how fast you say it. I could even see talking fast in some situations, but the debate shown in the video wasn't even about the subject at all, and yet everyone seemed to think that was perfectly normal. "F**k the time!" is now apparently perfectly acceptable debating strategy because "does time even exist?"

 

[libertyjam]

They're not exploiting the rules, they're ignoring them. This was a national championship. Did you notice that the subject of the debate was supposed to be presidential war powers? I just don't understand it. You're right, it's ridiculous, and it's indicative of what liberalism has done to people's brains.

Really,
What is depicted here is no longer debate, it is take the whole bowl of spaghetti and throw it on the wall to see what sticks, and the judges have decided that everything sticks so that the only determination of who 'wins' is he who throws the most spaghetti. It is nothing more than a verbal food fight. Nothing is actually learned by anyone, no actual points are made, it is nothing but a mish mash of random garbage thrown about and covering everyone in a huge disgusting mess.

 

[Todd]

Really,
What is depicted here is no longer debate, it is take the whole bowl of spaghetti and throw it on the wall to see what sticks, and the judges have decided that everything sticks so that the only determination of who 'wins' is he who throws the most spaghetti. It is nothing more than a verbal food fight. Nothing is actually learned by anyone, no actual points are made, it is nothing but a mish mash of random garbage thrown about and covering everyone in a huge disgusting mess.

So basically it's an internet debate.

 

[libertyjam]

So basically it's an internet debate.

exactly

 

[BamaAla]

They're not exploiting the rules, they're ignoring them. This was a national championship. Did you notice that the subject of the debate was supposed to be presidential war powers? I just don't understand it. You're right, it's ridiculous, and it's indicative of what liberalism has done to people's brains.

If they were ignoring the rules, the rules don't matter; otherwise, they wouldn't have won in a crowded field.

Who cares what the subject was? It's a game and the these two girls found a way to win at it; although, as someone has already pointed out, spreading has been the norm in cross debates for 40 years, this just happens to be the most recent incarnation of the tactic.

This whole thing reminds me of the fighting debate on Game of Thrones and the people that get mad when someone doesn't fight "with honor" or the defensive chess player that gets all but hurt and flustered when playing someone who is super aggressive and wrecks their defense with early queen. Frankly, get over it.

 

[osan]

If there's a time constraint personally I would think it most valuable to learn to balance rushed speaking with effective communication and prioritization of relevant points.

A few points: firstly, that is your greatest sin - you think.

Secondly, nobody gives a shit what you think, precisely because you do. This goes for all who dare commit "the sin"

Thirdly, silly rabbit for believing that effective communication in such circles meant anything better than "Ahma be bustin' niggiz' up... ahma fuk'em'up"

I grew up for a significant part of my life in ghetto environments. In those days, the ghetto was contained. Why? Because the rest of the world wanted it that way, and I cannot blame them a whit. Ghetto culture is criminal culture and in many aspects is pure criminality itself. The cardinal principles of ghetto culture are "get over" and "get even". These, fueled by the hopelessly weak egos of the average dweller, makes for the dangerously unwholesome environments that they are.

Then one day in the mid-1980s that culture began leaking out into the mainstream. It has been downhill ever since. Forget things such as the sense of style arisen from the hopelessly infantile ghetto aesthetic - I don't much care if you run about town with your pants at your knees because the choice to look like an idiot is completely yours. But the principles and attitudes and language of criminality also escaped... with much abetting from elements in the broader environment. It first hit me ca. 1986 when I took a drive out of the City (NYC) down to Freehold NJ, where I attended high school. Driving up Stillwells Corner Rd., what did I spy on that beautiful late June day but an adult white male walking with whom I presumed to be his son of about 12 years. Said boy was shod in sneakers with the laces all undone. How I managed not to crash my truck into the curb is beyond me. I was utterly flabbergasted and wanted to admonish the man to beat the child until such insanity came to cessation. The ignorant little brat has no idea what the untied shoelaces meant and that being white, he of all people should have shunned it. Few probably know this anymore, but the shoelace thing originated above 110th Street and signified "fuck you, whitey". In time it became ubiquitous and the original intended meaning yieleded to mere fashion.

You have to understand that in those days no self-respecting human being of any denomination would have endeavored to emulate such things. The equivalent today could be advertising that you were a child-molester. It was indeed considered that terrible. Nobody wanted to be like "those" people, only now, some actually did. And it has been steeply downhill since then with every moronic stupidity vomited forth from the ghetto denizens being welcomed with open arms, hyped beyond hype, marketed, and praised as manna from heaven itself. And of course it then began taking on a life of its own. I will never forget my sense of WTF when that nitwit "Vanilla Ice" got his 15 minutes stomping about in his embarrassing efforts to be "black". What really got me is that it all took off. Middle America, rather than showing good sense and self-respect by turning its back to this hideous monster from above 110th street, got into bed with it and started sucking for all it was worth. That is the part that astonishes me even to this day: the utter absence of discernment and discrimination, which stands to me as proof conclusive that people can be trained to tolerate, then accept, and eventually demand absolutely anything you could possibly think up, no matter how morbid and grizzly. Give me 10 years and all the access and authority and I GUARTANTEE you that I could have Americans accepting, practicing, and worshipping child-rape such that were you then to take it from them, you would experience the Gammas rising up when their soma was not available on time.

That the performance captured in the OP video is what today passes for virtuous scholarliness does not in the least surprise me, and mark my words that it is going to get a whole lot worse, all else equal.

 

[Vanguard101]

People do these types of things all the time in debate

 

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

People do these types of things all the time in debate

It was uh uh bad for the uh uh early uh uh Americans uh uh to uh uh commit uh uh genocide uh uh against the uh uh Native uh uh Ameri uh uh Cans.

 

[CPUd]

A few points: firstly, that is your greatest sin - you think.

Secondly, nobody gives a shit what you think, precisely because you do. This goes for all who dare commit "the sin"

Thirdly, silly rabbit for believing that effective communication in such circles meant anything better than "Ahma be bustin' niggiz' up... ahma fuk'em'up"

I grew up for a significant part of my life in ghetto environments. In those days, the ghetto was contained. Why? Because the rest of the world wanted it that way, and I cannot blame them a whit. Ghetto culture is criminal culture and in many aspects is pure criminality itself. The cardinal principles of ghetto culture are "get over" and "get even". These, fueled by the hopelessly weak egos of the average dweller, makes for the dangerously unwholesome environments that they are.

Then one day in the mid-1980s that culture began leaking out into the mainstream. It has been downhill ever since. Forget things such as the sense of style arisen from the hopelessly infantile ghetto aesthetic - I don't much care if you run about town with your pants at your knees because the choice to look like an idiot is completely yours. But the principles and attitudes and language of criminality also escaped... with much abetting from elements in the broader environment. It first hit me ca. 1986 when I took a drive out of the City (NYC) down to Freehold NJ, where I attended high school. Driving up Stillwells Corner Rd., what did I spy on that beautiful late June day but an adult white male walking with whom I presumed to be his son of about 12 years. Said boy was shod in sneakers with the laces all undone. How I managed not to crash my truck into the curb is beyond me. I was utterly flabbergasted and wanted to admonish the man to beat the child until such insanity came to cessation. The ignorant little brat has no idea what the untied shoelaces meant and that being white, he of all people should have shunned it. Few probably know this anymore, but the shoelace thing originated above 110th Street and signified "fuck you, whitey". In time it became ubiquitous and the original intended meaning yieleded to mere fashion.

You have to understand that in those days no self-respecting human being of any denomination would have endeavored to emulate such things. The equivalent today could be advertising that you were a child-molester. It was indeed considered that terrible. Nobody wanted to be like "those" people, only now, some actually did. And it has been steeply downhill since then with every moronic stupidity vomited forth from the ghetto denizens being welcomed with open arms, hyped beyond hype, marketed, and praised as manna from heaven itself. And of course it then began taking on a life of its own. I will never forget my sense of WTF when that nitwit "Vanilla Ice" got his 15 minutes stomping about in his embarrassing efforts to be "black". What really got me is that it all took off. Middle America, rather than showing good sense and self-respect by turning its back to this hideous monster from above 110th street, got into bed with it and started sucking for all it was worth. That is the part that astonishes me even to this day: the utter absence of discernment and discrimination, which stands to me as proof conclusive that people can be trained to tolerate, then accept, and eventually demand absolutely anything you could possibly think up, no matter how morbid and grizzly. Give me 10 years and all the access and authority and I GUARTANTEE you that I could have Americans accepting, practicing, and worshipping child-rape such that were you then to take it from them, you would experience the Gammas rising up when their soma was not available on time.

That the performance captured in the OP video is what today passes for virtuous scholarliness does not in the least surprise me, and mark my words that it is going to get a whole lot worse, all else equal.

 

[Saint Vitus]

I thought this video was pretty funny

 

[juleswin]

I thought this video was pretty funny

So this is what he looks like without his hoodie.