What is your position on abortion?

[Christian Liberty]

You're right. I missed where he said that. I don't support the wars that we're currently in and don't support any additional preemptive wars. He said so many dishonest things that I didn't really know what to respond to anyway. So I just stuck with the "rolls eyes" symbol.

Actually, come to think of it, I thought you did support the War in Afghanistan. Are you in favor of leaving now?

 

[Christian Liberty]

Quoted for posterity. TC's defense of murder:



[Some of what I've written is tongue-in-cheek. This is not. These are drug-war tactics: excuse the user go after the provider. It never works. See Signapore - they punish both although they are harsher on the dealer. Long-term imprisonment for users (mothers). Death penalty for dealers (Doctors). Does our society want to do that to end abortion? I see little else making a dent on the numbers. The so-called pro-life movement by taking long-term imprisonment of mothers off the table, they have proven themselves to not be concerned with murder.]

My economics teacher actually argued that they should go after demand, rather than supply, of drugs for this reason. I disagreed, of course, and supported legalization of all drugs.

You're right that the pro-life movement is mostly pathetic. I'll take what I can get but I also fail to take my eye off the final goal. Murderers should face death or exile to a penal colony for life, depending on just how certain we are of their guilt. This should apply to women who have abortions, and doctors who give abortions.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I don't think Traditional Conservative is defending murder though. I think he's just trying to speak like a politician when he isn't even running for office. Which I fail to see the point of.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I'm glad he voted for it.

Why? It barely does anything, and besides, it is anti-10th amendment. Ron Paul acted completely hypocritically on that vote.

And lest you think I say that because I'm pro-choice, read what I have said the states should do to people who have abortions AND their doctors in this thread. You don't even go as far as I do about this. I want nothing to do with the rape and murder of the US Constitution.

 

[Brett85]

Actually, come to think of it, I thought you did support the War in Afghanistan. Are you in favor of leaving now?

I've been in favor of leaving Afghanistan for quite some time. I don't support nation building or endless war overseas. What we're currently doing in Afghanistan has absolutely nothing to do with why we originally went there. Osama Bin Laden is dead.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I've been in favor of leaving Afghanistan for quite some time. I don't support nation building or endless war overseas.

+rep...

Any takers on the PBA ban?

 

[Brett85]

I think Ron just felt that partial birth abortion is such a terrible and hideous procedure that he voted to ban it, even though the law used the commerce clause as the justification for it's Constitutionality, and he didn't like that.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I think Ron just felt that partial birth abortion is such a terrible and hideous procedure that he voted to ban it, even though the law used the commerce clause as the justification for it's Constitutionality, and he didn't like that.

I almost find it hard to believe that Ron actually did this. I mean obviously, its public record, he did it, but this is totally out of character for him.

I don't see how any of us in the peanut gallery can actually defend him on it. This honestly seems obvious to me. Only the states can ban abortion, period. Everyone has their pet issue that's just so important that we have to rape and murder the constitution, and what do you know, everyone gets their pet law and the constitution dies.

Its not worth it, not for just one life, and not for fifty million lives. NOTHING is worth giving up our constitutional birthright. Slavery wasn't either. And there will never be an issue that's worth that.

The STATES should prosecute and exile or execute every person who has an abortion and every doctor who provides one. The Federal Government should do absolutely nothing about it.

Funny that some people in my family tried to tell me I was "Sort of" pro-choice

 

[Christian Liberty]

I think Ron just felt that partial birth abortion is such a terrible and hideous procedure that he voted to ban it, even though the law used the commerce clause as the justification for it's Constitutionality, and he didn't like that.

Ron Paul also undermined REAL pro-life principles by that vote.

Partial Birth Abortion is absolutely no worse than an abortion a month after conception, which is no different than killing a five year old. All of them are equally murder. I don't see the slightest bit of difference other than cosmetics.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure that banning "Cosmetically unappealing" abortions is a good idea even at the state level. It feels like all it does is foster the idea that abortion is "Safe" and "Clean." I'm all for laws (state level) that criminalize the murder of some children, but just banning a particular procedure seems totally useless to me.

Our time would be far better spent lobbying to get people like Scott Roeder out of prison. Now THAT would scare the murderous fanatics.

 

[Brett85]

Part of his reasoning was that since the Roe v. Wade decision federalized the abortion issue, banning late term abortions at the federal level is one way to offset the effects of the Roe v. Wade decision.

 

[Brett85]

Amash and Massie also voted for the bill that banned abortion after the first five months of pregnancy, so Ron isn't the only liberty person who has voted for some federal abortion laws.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Part of his reasoning was that since the Roe v. Wade decision federalized the abortion issue, banning late term abortions at the federal level is one way to offset the effects of the Roe v. Wade decision.

Which is just becoming like our enemies.

Ron Paul basically explained every good reason to vote against that failure of a bill, and then turned around and voted for it anyway. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Amash and Massie also voted for the bill that banned abortion after the first five months of pregnancy, so Ron isn't the only liberty person who has voted for some federal abortion laws.

No, I'm aware. Although I don't really expect better of Rand Paul or Amash (I honestly don't know how good Massie is, I know he's good but I'm not sure if he's more of a Rand Paul type or more of a Ron Paul type.) Both are solid, but neither are pure libertarians or constitutionalists. Both obviously try to play the game. Ron Paul generally does not. Since Ron Paul generally doesn't do things like this for purely pragmatic or political reasons, I assume that isn't the case either. Yet I don't see where Ron Paul's logic fails either. His logic in that Rockwell article is absolutely flawless. He knows exactly what is wrong with the bill. Yet he voted for it anyway. That's what I find so confusing, this is out of character for Ron on so many levels. He doesn't compromise, yet he clearly knows he can't vote for this bill on principle. Yet he does anyway.

I'm curious if Eduardo will actually explain to me why he's glad Ron made this vote. I know you've basically said that you're going to play the 14th amendment because you're so against this, but I honestly don't see how this bill could possibly fit with the 14th amendment even under your logic, seeing as it only prohibits a procedure and doesn't actually ban the murder of the unborn itself.

I honestly find it extremely aggravating on so many levels that libertarians and constitutionalists cannot agree to leave this at the state level where it belongs. The fact that so many people will make it a Federal issue leads to us fighting amongst ourselves and will likely lead to a split in the liberty movement at some point. Which we don't want.

 

[Contumacious]

I should clarify. Its one thing to disagree with Ron Paul. Its another thing entirely to call a position of his "Fascistic."

I was questioning because of the fascist comment, not simply because you disagreed.

Do that means that you agree with Mussolini - abortion is a "harmful freedom"?

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.... "

Benito Mussolini

 

[Brett85]

I'm curious if Eduardo will actually explain to me why he's glad Ron made this vote. I know you've basically said that you're going to play the 14th amendment because you're so against this, but I honestly don't see how this bill could possibly fit with the 14th amendment even under your logic, seeing as it only prohibits a procedure and doesn't actually ban the murder of the unborn itself.

Well, you could actually say that the ban on partial birth abortion fits within the confines of the 14th amendment even if you don't believe that the 14th amendment protects babies in the womb, because partial birth abortion kills a baby while it's being born. There's no debate about the fact that the 14th amendment at least protects babies who are outside of the womb, and the baby is at least partially outside of the womb during a partial birth abortion.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Do that means that you agree with Mussolini - abortion is a "harmful freedom"?

...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.... "

Benito Mussolini

I don't support the right to use your freedom to murder other people.

Well, you could actually say that the ban on partial birth abortion fits within the confines of the 14th amendment even if you don't believe that the 14th amendment protects babies in the womb, because partial birth abortion kills a baby while it's being born. There's no debate about the fact that the 14th amendment at least protects babies who are outside of the womb, and the baby is at least partially outside of the womb during a partial birth abortion.

I support leaving murder laws to the states as well, although I'm biased by the fact that I don't believe the 14th was legitimately passed.

That said, I wouldn't say partially born would fall under "Born or naturalized in the United States" either.

 

[eduardo89]

Why? It barely does anything, and besides, it is anti-10th amendment. Ron Paul acted completely hypocritically on that vote.

And lest you think I say that because I'm pro-choice, read what I have said the states should do to people who have abortions AND their doctors in this thread. You don't even go as far as I do about this. I want nothing to do with the rape and murder of the US Constitution.

I support all laws that restrict abortion, whether they're done on the federal, state, or local level.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I support all laws that restrict abortion, whether they're done on the federal, state, or local level.

So you don't care about the constitution?

 

[Contumacious]

I don't support the right to use your freedom to murder other people.

I see.

So the bureaucrats should have the freedom to designate a clump of cells - a fetus - as a human being but the female -- a second class citizen - should not be allowed to remove the clump of cells? RIght?

I support leaving murder laws to the states as well, although I'm biased by the fact that I don't believe the 14th was legitimately passed.
.

No, of course it wasn't.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I see.

So the bureaucrats should have the freedom to designate a clump of cells - a fetus - as a human being but the female -- a second class citizen - should not be allowed to remove the clump of cells? RIght?

I support the rights of "A bunch of bureaucrats" or anyone else* to declare that a murder of a human being, however you choose to redefine it, is murder and punishable by death.

*Excluding the Federal Government, as per the 10th.

No, of course it wasn't.

I know. Which is one of several reasons why I oppose Federal anti-abortion laws despite being radically pro-life.