What is the purpose of this forum existing anymore?

[osan]

Bryan is trying to create a set of rules which is devoid of loopholes, which encapsulate, preserve, protect and defend the spirit of the law through the letter of the law.

Is he? Is that wrong?

I do not believe that it is impossible. Words have meaning and language empowers us to erect conceptual structures representing very definite contrivances and discoveries. These conceptual objects do not change over time so long as the language employed is not abused. So long as that is true, it is in fact possible to build such structures that are semantically solid. The problem comes not perforce with the conceptual models themselves, but with ignorant or dishonest people who pretend to have uncovered a loophole where none exists. Compounding this problem are the other people who, for want of honesty or smarts, accept the fallacious assertions of the false loophole and before you know it, everyone is behaving as if the damned thing actually existed. Legislatures then pass laws and real people often end up in real prison cells, or shot dead by good-for-nothing cops who blindly follow the orders given them, no matter how outrageous.

As always, the problem lies not in contriving a "system" that is for all intents and purposes perfect, for that is an almost trivial task when compared with getting people to abide by their own rules. I am once again obliged to point out that the average human being is a hopelessly self-destructive idiot.

It's a fool's game that even Jesus did not attempt. Jesus told parables, and let those with eyes to see and ears to hear get the message. Jesus openly flouted the letter of the law in order to elevate the spirit of the law above it.

Contriving may not be, but it seems that so long as the fundamental elements of Empire are present, people are going to continue on the average to choose pretty slavery over freedom. For such timid creatures it is easier and a lot less frightening. Their chains and manacles are familiar, and therefore comfortable, bringing me back to the notion of a "reset event" being necessary to break the cycle of roiling, leaping insanity that has the race of men by the throat.

Just look at the new posts board now. Have fun hanging around just another mainstream echo chamber, people...

Then why are you here?

I don't see it this way, though there is some validity in what you say. The danger of it becoming as you describe is always there, no matter which site or people, so I don't let that bother me too much. I have plenty of other crap on my mind.

The bottom line is this: the world is what it is at the moment and it took a very long time to become this way. It is not going to right itself overnight, if even ever it might. The world of truly free men is by necessity significantly different from this one. I doubt we will see freedom in our lifetimes, barring that reset scenario where Empire is swept away in some cataclysmic fashion and cold hard reality rushes in to fill the void and people are faced with the immediate choice of coming to their senses or dying forthwith. But if that doesn't happen and my assumption that freedom will not come over night, then the best we can do today is pave the way with the philosophical underpinnings of liberty in a way that has never before been done. If that were to be the only thing accomplished here in the coming few years, I would call it effort well spent. At least we could say we did something right and good. If our posterity drops that ball, that will be on them.

The world has become a prison for the criminally insane. There is only so much a man can be expected to accomplish in the face of such a juggernaut of dangerous crazy. So one step at a time, knowing we may be doing this all in vain, but pressing on regardless in our refusal to be defeated by lesser men, no matter how numerous they may be.

I say don't lose heart. Difficult, I know, but we appear to be like-minded in the broad strokes. Use that cohesion to help one another and make this thing regardless of whether it is futile. Winning and losing are of no concern to the warrior as they are illusions. What is real is your mind, your soul, your spirit and integrity as a man. Those are the things of value and they belong solely to you. YOU determine their quality and character. No purporting "master" can have that part of you unless you surrender it to him, and that is the part he wants most of all. I say deny it at all turns to his red-faced frustration such that his bile flows in torrents. Never abandon yourself.

 

[RDM]

Just when I thought there will never be a presidential election worse than the last along comes this one. Prayers for the American People.

 

[navy-vet]

I like the meme's and the wit. Oh, and the expressions of the old guards visions of liberty and freedom.

 

[osan]

Because the Germans are paragons of sense and rationality.... as they allow an occupying army waltz right in for the sake of showing the world how wonderfully humanitarian they are.

Does anyone really care what the rest of the world thinks?

 

[euphemia]

We have to figure out how to get through the next four or eight years with whatever president we get. We have to stay on top of the liberty agenda and talk to our representatives on every level. We will elect congress in two years. Now is the time to help new candidates get some traction.

 

[GunnyFreedom]

I would hope that this site would act as a kind of polaris, or North Star for the political alliance of libertarians, constitutionalists, and paleoconservatives. "Plugged in" and guiding light. I like the sites candidate assessments for this reason

Now if you fall under this spectrum maybe you can find your way here by searching out ideas, and once here connect with someone locally who can plug you into the political infrastructure. Could eventually act as a clearinghouse to connect candidates and ready support networks.

Best way to accomplish is to gain acclaim and renown for principle and integrity, make this the libertarian's "first stop" when they want to research what's right on principle. Gather that cloud and expand it if possible, and then once near critical start playing the dating game with candidates to office and connecting the ones we want to win into local support structures.

But the way to ensure best candidates has to be to become a "guiding light." Like for navigation. The little dipper, polaris, now you know which way is north. We need to expand our attraction to the outside world, by becoming the reliable north star of the Constitutional/liberty alliance.

Make this place the very first and true go-to stop to learn "what liberty thinks about this." And then start drawing liberty/constitution minded candidates into the forums to chat and participate and then be connected to people in their area who can help them connect to an infrastructure to run for political office and win.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

The hell?

This is so failed, I don't even know what to say in response.

It is clear we will not agree, so I will simply drop it and declare you the winner.

And the crowd goes wild...

Talk about fail, how about that failed attempt at being a graceful loser? You might as well have just made raspberries at it. "The hell? Fail. I'm out."

If you're going to concede, then do it straightforwardly, not in a candy-ass manner such as you have. In fact, it probably would've been better to say nothing at all than to just make the statement that I've failed and offer no response whatsoever to show why you think that. Such baseless assertions are juvenile, on par with sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting gibberish.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

We have to figure out how to get through the next four or eight years with whatever president we get. We have to stay on top of the liberty agenda and talk to our representatives on every level. We will elect congress in two years. Now is the time to help new candidates get some traction.

This is what I'm talking about. This language of "getting through" the next eight years. How many terms of eight years are you willing to wait before you finally feel like you can breathe again? Breathe now, don't wait for permission. You're all just sitting around and saying "Next eight years, everything will change, wait and see." To me, it's just sad and pathetic. Just how many years are you willing to sacrifice in the name of this fruitless cause before you finally feel as if you've wasted them? Or is it worth it to spend your whole life getting through terms of eight years worrying about who the president is just so you can tell people you did something for them? One more election and you can feel a little prouder because at least you voted. I'm going to lose my mind over this utterly insane way of thinking.

 

[jct74]

You calling my narrative hopeless is like calling Ron Paul an isolationist. I'm one of the most hopeful people on this forum because I believe there is still hope to live your life fully without spending your time and resources trying to change the system from the inside. The people who blindly cling to a cause as if it's the only thing in life worth fighting for are the hopeless ones. Only once you stop acting like changing the government is the only way to make a better future can you truly ACT to make a better future for yourself by plunging into the market of ideas, coming up with new and creative ways to help people who need it, providing a service, making connections, and doing what you want with your life. The ones who act like they can only live freely by changing the system are the ones who are truly on their knees. There are other ways to fight the system beside the ballot box, like giving people something they want so much that they are willing to fight the system with you just to get whatever it is you are giving them. Either that, or take over the damn capitol. My narrative is not hopeless, it's enlightening and truly freeing, a new attitude that helps you see the world not as a series of ballot boxes, but an endless sea of opportunities that have nothing to do with elections or politics or voting. That's all pointless. Life is still out there to live if you're willing to face the reality and go seek it even against the odds. That's truly the only way to not be candy-ass. Make a life and fight for that life. Don't fight for the system.

I guess.. if you want to call this enlightened thinking... you can do that. You are frustrated with politics, don't see it worth your time, and would rather focus on other activities. Nothing wrong with that, or extraordinary about it either. But I take exception to the narrative that everything is hopeless in the political realm, nothing good is being achieved, and people who are still fighting in various ways should just give it up and become "enlightened" like you and not even bother voting. Not only will that lead to an even more oppressive government, that's just plain kicking people in the teeth who don't deserve it. Those people still in the fight deserve the utmost respect for their efforts, certainly more than anyone trying to advocate for people to give up, like you do. There is no good reason to work against them.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

If that's your view, then violence might be the answer for you. Why change the system from the inside, acting like you're engaged in some hot battle when all you're really doing is negotiating? If you want to have the freedom to live your life to the fullest, then stop paying attention to every little infraction and just go out there and live your life to the fullest. Crying and whining and trying to change things from the inside are pointless. If you really want to not be candy-ass, as it were, then go overthrow the goddamn government. Fight back against the police. Be a rebel for real. If all you're really doing is talking, then you're no less candy-ass than I am for no longer trying to negotiate the system in hopes of somehow making things a little better in your lifetime, if that were ever possible. For now, I'm living my life to quite a full extent out of the grasp of the American government and although the land I'm in now is also somewhat oppressive, I find it easier to stomach since I'm not brave enough to start a violent revolution, and I doubt you are either.

Love my brother Osan, but you're right.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PaulConventionWV again.

 

[osan]

And the crowd goes wild...

Talk about fail, how about that failed attempt at being a graceful loser? You might as well have just made raspberries at it. "The hell? Fail. I'm out."

If you're going to concede, then do it straightforwardly, not in a candy-ass manner such as you have. In fact, it probably would've been better to say nothing at all than to just make the statement that I've failed and offer no response whatsoever to show why you think that. Such baseless assertions are juvenile, on par with sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting gibberish.

I see you missed the sarcasm.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I guess.. if you want to call this enlightened thinking... you can do that. You are frustrated with politics, don't see it worth your time, and would rather focus on other activities. Nothing wrong with that, or extraordinary about it either. But I take exception to the narrative that everything is hopeless in the political realm, nothing good is being achieved, and people who are still fighting in various ways should just give it up and become "enlightened" like you and not even bother voting. Not only will that lead to an even more oppressive government, that's just plain kicking people in the teeth who don't deserve it. Those people still in the fight deserve the utmost respect for their efforts, certainly more than anyone trying to advocate for people to give up, like you do. There is no good reason to work against them.

If anything good has been achieved by voting, it's outweighed by the constant barrage of negative things achieved by the political process. What I take exception to is the idea that not voting is going to make the government more oppressive, as if there was any way you could know that. And even if that were the case, I would still prefer it over the slow death we are now experiencing where nobody ever wakes up because they still believe voting can really change things.

And believe me, I don't like to denigrate those who have fought in the political movement. I was one of them, but it's time to come to reality and stop deceiving ourselves and others by believing we can use the government's system to overthrow it. If that was possible, it would've been done by now. The fact that they have so much power now should tell you that they probably already thought of a bunch of rascally voters ruining their plan by voting and took measures to prevent it. There's nothing legal that can be done anymore, and while those who persevere in the illusion may be brave, they are still just prolonging the pain by providing false hope. No matter how valiant it may seem to you, we need to be rational about what's working and what's not, and voting isn't working. Referring to a few small victories as breakthroughs is just drawing attention away from the fact that the vast majority of political events are working against you and will continue with or without your vote.

But hey, if you really think you can beat the media and god knows what else they have to prevent elections from changing anything by handing out flyers, then be my guest.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I see you missed the sarcasm.

Yeah, no, I got it. It's still a candy-ass way to exit the discussion, and for the same reasons.

 

[LibertyEagle]

And the crowd goes wild...

Talk about fail, how about that failed attempt at being a graceful loser? You might as well have just made raspberries at it. "The hell? Fail. I'm out."

If you're going to concede, then do it straightforwardly, not in a candy-ass manner such as you have. In fact, it probably would've been better to say nothing at all than to just make the statement that I've failed and offer no response whatsoever to show why you think that. Such baseless assertions are juvenile, on par with sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting gibberish.

He's not conceding. He just doesn't see the point in wasting time on someone who has quit. It's your choice, but you should not be here berating those who have not.

 

[acptulsa]

He's not conceding. He just doesn't see the point in wasting time on someone who has quit. It's your choice, but you should not be here berating those who have not.

What does 'wasting time on someone who has quit' have to do with that conversation?

PCWV, so far as I can tell, is merely stating that if you aren't crazy enough to stage a one-man revolution, then the only manly thing to do is to plunge ever deeper into denial and try to accomplish nothing, for fear that anything you do will be seen as begging your masters for scraps.

Why does that even need to be answered? Who takes it seriously enough to favor it with a serious response?

 

[Bryan]

This is what I'm talking about. This language of "getting through" the next eight years. How many terms of eight years are you willing to wait before you finally feel like you can breathe again? Breathe now, don't wait for permission. You're all just sitting around and saying "Next eight years, everything will change, wait and see." To me, it's just sad and pathetic. Just how many years are you willing to sacrifice in the name of this fruitless cause before you finally feel as if you've wasted them? Or is it worth it to spend your whole life getting through terms of eight years worrying about who the president is just so you can tell people you did something for them? One more election and you can feel a little prouder because at least you voted. I'm going to lose my mind over this utterly insane way of thinking.

There is some balance here. For one, I don't know of anyone that is saying to hold your breath, no one is saying "hope" beyond a campaign slogan, and no one is saying to waste your time on fruitless efforts.

I do agree that we should be smart in how we spend our time and use our assets, I agreed all of this recently in the this thread here on the new site vision:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?494373-A-new-site-vision-a-new-era

I see Rand's campaign as a bit of a turning point showing we need a better plan, and it's not a good idea to wait to 2020 or 2024 to try some slightly different version of what has already been done.

Ultimately however, your path is a personal choice and the best path will depend upon may factors that are unique to you. Sure, maybe the machine won't let us change the machine from working form within the machine but we can still leverage the machine to build our numbers. That's what I've said is one of the main benefits of the campaigns, and our campaign evaluation system factors this in. Consider we would not be here if it was not for Ron Paul leveraging the machine to get his message out. It works. Consider that people like Massie and Amash got into Congress and are working to push our message from within. They have an opportunity, took it, and it's working for them.

So I say to find your balance and come to peace with it, explain why you have that view but there is no reason to beat up others for doing something different. Again, read my post (at leas the "State of the Movement; Where do we go from here?" section) in which I address these points. In short, I say that for now, we should focus on things that we can control.

 

[Bryan]

But if that doesn't happen and my assumption that freedom will not come over night, then the best we can do today is pave the way with the philosophical underpinnings of liberty in a way that has never before been done. If that were to be the only thing accomplished here in the coming few years, I would call it effort well spent. At least we could say we did something right and good. If our posterity drops that ball, that will be on them.

... and for those who aren't aware yet, this is what we hope to do with the Foundational Knowledgebase project. It's also something that we can completely control, we don't need anyone's permission, anyone's votes or the like.

See this thread for the project kick-off:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...n-Advancement-Framework-A-new-site-initiative!

 

[Bryan]

I would hope that this site would act as a kind of polaris, or North Star for the political alliance of libertarians, constitutionalists, and paleoconservatives. "Plugged in" and guiding light. I like the sites candidate assessments for this reason

Or perhaps even, the guiding point.

Now if you fall under this spectrum maybe you can find your way here by searching out ideas, and once here connect with someone locally who can plug you into the political infrastructure. Could eventually act as a clearinghouse to connect candidates and ready support networks.

Best way to accomplish is to gain acclaim and renown for principle and integrity, make this the libertarian's "first stop" when they want to research what's right on principle. Gather that cloud and expand it if possible, and then once near critical start playing the dating game with candidates to office and connecting the ones we want to win into local support structures.

But the way to ensure best candidates has to be to become a "guiding light." Like for navigation. The little dipper, polaris, now you know which way is north. We need to expand our attraction to the outside world, by becoming the reliable north star of the Constitutional/liberty alliance.

Make this place the very first and true go-to stop to learn "what liberty thinks about this." And then start drawing liberty/constitution minded candidates into the forums to chat and participate and then be connected to people in their area who can help them connect to an infrastructure to run for political office and win.

These are absolutely some things that we want to achieve, and more. The key is to have the right level of site discourse, which we're improving, have the right site structures, which we're working on, and to have the right people. The entire interactive effort is something that I certainly can't do by myself, and we need people to step up in small ways, but in ways that they can provide value. To do this, there needs to have a good win-win framework in place, which is the goal of our Mission Advancement Framework.

 

[osan]

Yeah, no, I got it. It's still a candy-ass way to exit the discussion, and for the same reasons.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but there are some arguments that are just not worth having for the 31,409th time.

 

[MelissaWV]

This is what I'm talking about. This language of "getting through" the next eight years. How many terms of eight years are you willing to wait before you finally feel like you can breathe again? Breathe now, don't wait for permission. You're all just sitting around and saying "Next eight years, everything will change, wait and see." To me, it's just sad and pathetic. Just how many years are you willing to sacrifice in the name of this fruitless cause before you finally feel as if you've wasted them? Or is it worth it to spend your whole life getting through terms of eight years worrying about who the president is just so you can tell people you did something for them? One more election and you can feel a little prouder because at least you voted. I'm going to lose my mind over this utterly insane way of thinking.

You're missing some of what was said, possibly due to the surrounding noise.

Getting through the next years is the alternative to NOT getting through it. Nothing in her post suggests a "shelter in place and do nothing" kind of attitude.

In fact, the post talks about elections at a variety of levels. Whether those of us still living in the US like it or not, our lives are still going to intersect the Government on some level or another. It behooves us to try to elect decent people locally to help staunch the bleeding, locally. Those elections don't happen "every eight years" and none of us is patting ourselves on the back, resting on our voting someone in. It's an ongoing process, to elect people we can actually be proud of. Hell, it's an ongoing process just to get a choice in some local elections.