What is the purpose of this forum existing anymore?

[PaulConventionWV]

What does 'wasting time on someone who has quit' have to do with that conversation?

PCWV, so far as I can tell, is merely stating that if you aren't crazy enough to stage a one-man revolution, then the only manly thing to do is to plunge ever deeper into denial and try to accomplish nothing, for fear that anything you do will be seen as begging your masters for scraps.

Why does that even need to be answered? Who takes it seriously enough to favor it with a serious response?

I'm not in favor of denial. My eyes are wide open. I'm acknowledging the truth, not denying it. Those who feel they can still save the country with the political process are the ones in denial if there ever were. Also, I never said anything about a one-man revolution. You can start a many man revolution if you have the balls to do it, but the worst thing you can do is fool yourself and others into thinking it's still possible to vote your way to prosperity. I don't need you to take me seriously. This is for your own good. "Giving up" isn't part of my message. My message is that "never giving up" on turning that hamster wheel will inevitably be the worst thing you can possibly do. No matter how many times you turn it and with whatever passion, you will never make a difference until you get off the wheel.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

There is some balance here. For one, I don't know of anyone that is saying to hold your breath, no one is saying "hope" beyond a campaign slogan, and no one is saying to waste your time on fruitless efforts.

I do agree that we should be smart in how we spend our time and use our assets, I agreed all of this recently in the this thread here on the new site vision:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?494373-A-new-site-vision-a-new-era

I see Rand's campaign as a bit of a turning point showing we need a better plan, and it's not a good idea to wait to 2020 or 2024 to try some slightly different version of what has already been done.

Ultimately however, your path is a personal choice and the best path will depend upon may factors that are unique to you. Sure, maybe the machine won't let us change the machine from working form within the machine but we can still leverage the machine to build our numbers. That's what I've said is one of the main benefits of the campaigns, and our campaign evaluation system factors this in. Consider we would not be here if it was not for Ron Paul leveraging the machine to get his message out. It works. Consider that people like Massie and Amash got into Congress and are working to push our message from within. They have an opportunity, took it, and it's working for them.

So I say to find your balance and come to peace with it, explain why you have that view but there is no reason to beat up others for doing something different. Again, read my post (at leas the "State of the Movement; Where do we go from here?" section) in which I address these points. In short, I say that for now, we should focus on things that we can control.

I see nothing wrong with what you're saying, and thank you for proving wrong whoever said I need not be taken seriously.

Using the machine to grow your numbers may have some worth, but what I'm addressing is the people who believe that we should grow our numbers for the sake of having more people to use the machine in the way the machine intended itself to be used. The problem with using the machine to grow your numbers is that it takes untold manpower and riches away from more fruitful endeavors, all the while telling people that the machine is okay, it just needs some tweaking. The problem is that people don't get into the machine to break it down because the machine will automatically reject them so you have to tell the lie that using the machine in its intended way will work, and that just reinforces the myth that the machine can save you. If you get into politics just to tell the people that the hamster wheel is broken and we need to fix it so that we can keep rolling it, then you've got the wrong message.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but there are some arguments that are just not worth having for the 31,409th time.

Will they be worth having on the 10 millionth turn of the hamster wheel? How many times do we need to turn the hamster wheel before we recognize that getting off the damn wheel is actually a viable solution?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

You're missing some of what was said, possibly due to the surrounding noise.

Getting through the next years is the alternative to NOT getting through it. Nothing in her post suggests a "shelter in place and do nothing" kind of attitude.

In fact, the post talks about elections at a variety of levels. Whether those of us still living in the US like it or not, our lives are still going to intersect the Government on some level or another. It behooves us to try to elect decent people locally to help staunch the bleeding, locally. Those elections don't happen "every eight years" and none of us is patting ourselves on the back, resting on our voting someone in. It's an ongoing process, to elect people we can actually be proud of. Hell, it's an ongoing process just to get a choice in some local elections.

That's the problem, though. It's not worth wasting your time on. Getting through the next years, to many people, means using them to prepare to get enough people together to turn the hamster wheel one... more... time.

 

[tod evans]

That's the problem, though. It's not worth wasting your time on. Getting through the next years, to many people, means using them to prepare to get enough people together to turn the hamster wheel one... more... time.

What difference do you see in the US hamster wheel and the Chinese hamster wheel?

 

[acptulsa]

That's the problem, though. It's not worth wasting your time on. Getting through the next years, to many people, means using them to prepare to get enough people together to turn the hamster wheel one... more... time.

All this hamster wheel talk is a cute analogy but does it mean anything?

The bulk of Americans will believe the system is fried when they finally decide to turn to a genuine anti-Establishment candidate and their will is denied. So, the way to that end is to work toward a consensus that we need to elect someone completely not approved by the media. Once we elect that candidate but the powers that be tell us to our faces that we did not, it's on.

Until then, you are just a voice in the wilderness, one raging against the machine. A one-man revolution begging for a rubber room and a diet of thorazine.

If you can't help bring on that proof that this is no longer a republic, the least you could do is have the courtesy to stay out of the way.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

What difference do you see in the US hamster wheel and the Chinese hamster wheel?

As far as the political process goes, probably nothing, but then I'm not advocating becoming Chairman Mao to make China libertarian, am I? I like it because you can walk down the street with a beer in your hands and take a huge swig right in front of a police officer. They never care and they never beat anyone down for walking down the street. Besides red lights, there really aren't any traffic restrictions that are designed to save people from ever having to deal with real-life traffic situations and despite this I've never seen any serious accidents. I see tons and tons of street vendors all over the place with no zoning and no business permits. Wanna sell lemonade here? Go right ahead.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

All this hamster wheel talk is a cute analogy but does it mean anything?

The bulk of Americans will believe the system is fried when they finally decide to turn to a genuine anti-Establishment candidate and their will is denied. So, the way to that end is to work toward a consensus that we need to elect someone completely not approved by the media. Once we elect that candidate but the powers that be tell us to our faces that we did not, it's on.

Until then, you are just a voice in the wilderness, one raging against the machine. A one-man revolution begging for a rubber room and a diet of thorazine.

If you can't help bring on that proof that this is no longer a republic, the least you could do is have the courtesy to stay out of the way.

There are two ways to the end you bring up, namely the one where we prove this is no longer a Republic by having the system deny us. One is to keep using the system such that someone who is undoubtedly not approved by the media (good luck on that) is rejected outright in such an obvious way that the people are forced to recognize that what the media tells them happened is not the truth (and good luck with that, too.) Another way is to stop using the system such that the system is forced to go on without us, at which point we have proven the same thing and we haven't wasted so much time and billions of dollars worth of resources to do it. Rather, we have built our own lives irrespective of the regulations of our rulers and fought for that life until we are forced to give it up by the machine, which is the battle you want to be fighting, not the "Who's the fairest of them all" battle.

If you take yourself out of the market of productive ideas to live for the beauty pageant, fighting for the life you've built in the beauty pageant, then I'm sorry, but your life is literally a lie. Your purpose going into the beauty pageant was to help people see that the beauty pageant is a lie, but in order to do that, you've had to make your life about the beauty pageant and you can't risk letting your beauty pageant life be taken away for fear you won't make in the actual market of productive ideas.

 

[acptulsa]

Rather, we have built our own lives irrespective of the regulations of our rulers and fought for that life until we are forced to give it up by the machine, which is the battle you want to be fighting, not the "Who's the fairest of them all" battle.

If you take yourself out of the market to live for the beauty pageant, fighting for the life you've built in the beauty pageant, then I'm sorry, but your life is literally a lie.

You missed the point.

The point is, if you help people discover that the right to build your life is stolen and we have already given our lives up to the machine, despite the tons of propaganda designed to obscure that, then you can do something about it sooner, and you have more help when you do.

More importantly, you have had a chance before that moment to teach people what they are fighting for. Which is important, because if you don't you wind up watching everyone fighting to get something even worse.

 

[erowe1]

Because the Germans are paragons of sense and rationality.... as they allow an occupying army waltz right in for the sake of showing the world how wonderfully humanitarian they are.

As opposed to doing what? Building a wall around their border?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

There are two ways to the end you bring up, namely the one where we prove this is no longer a Republic by having the system deny us. One is to keep using the system such that someone who is undoubtedly not approved by the media (good luck on that) is rejected outright in such an obvious way that the people are forced to recognize that what the media tells them happened is not the truth (and good luck with that, too.) Another way is to stop using the system such that the system is forced to go on without us, at which point we have proven the same thing and we haven't wasted so much time and billions of dollars worth of resources to do it. Rather, we have built our own lives irrespective of the regulations of our rulers and fought for that life until we are forced to give it up by the machine, which is the battle you want to be fighting, not the "Who's the fairest of them all" battle.

If you take yourself out of the market of productive ideas to live for the beauty pageant, fighting for the life you've built in the beauty pageant, then I'm sorry, but your life is literally a lie. Your purpose going into the beauty pageant was to help people see that the beauty pageant is a lie, but in order to do that, you've had to make your life about the beauty pageant and you can't risk letting your beauty pageant life be taken away for fear you won't make in the actual market of productive ideas.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PaulConventionWV again.

grrrr. Someone plz +rep my brother here^^

 

[FindLiberty]

... Does anyone really care what the rest of the world thinks?

Picture from post #62

Hmmm, makes me wonder just who is paying for those $$ HQ floats - different designs seen in both Germany and America?

 

[FindLiberty]

Sorry, hit reply button 30 posts ago, still reading A new site vision; a new era did not mean to float off-topic. too tired to think right now.

 

[Natural Citizen]

..but then I'm not advocating becoming Chairman Mao to make China libertarian, am I?...

Man, I'm right there with you about that. I see this mindset gradually and strategically being inserted as the more desirable catalyist. And I don't like it. I kind of just bite my tongue about it and don't say too much, though. I think it is sometimes more practical to remain observant in those situations rather than to contribute to it. Once that becomes the prevalent line of logic, I'll consider other avenues of outreach on a more regular basis, too. Of course, on the flipside I really am beginning to conclude that some just want to stimulate/endorse total chaos. Complete anarchy. Bloodshed even albeit from behind the coercive comfort of a keyboard and far removed from any instance of that which one may tend to endorse. And no good will come from that.

...becoming Chairman Mao to make China libertarian...that's a good way to put it. And we're sure as heck seeing that logic become the driver in all of this. Silver-tongued as it may often be presented, it is what it is.

 

[osan]

Will they be worth having on the 10 millionth turn of the hamster wheel? How many times do we need to turn the hamster wheel before we recognize that getting off the damn wheel is actually a viable solution?

All well and good, but this has nothing to do with the efforts being made here. I wan't speaking about voting at all, was I? My point was that giving up on freedom was the worst response to the encroaching tyrant. You obviously feel differently. That is your prerogative. Don't like voting? Think it is futile? I agree, but that's not in any measure the entire universe of possible responses.

I would add that you erect a false dichotomy, whether intentionally or otherwise, when you implied that one either does nothing or starts shooting. There is a whole lot that ought to come before that. At times I think we have gone past that point and at others I don't. Part of the human condition, I suppose. Regardless, even if we started shooting yesterday, what would it buy us in terms of proceeding in the aftermath? Nothing. Why? Because the vast and overwhelming wad of humanity has absolutely no idea how to live beyond the parameters of tyranny, regardless of how seemingly benign it may appear. What kind of a world... hell, NATION would we put in the place of what we now have? For want of the most basic understanding of proper human relations we would erect yet another tyranny because people are simply unwilling to let go of the base assumptions that lead to tyranny every single time such that you can set your clocks by it.

"We have to have roads... we have to have schools... we have to have standing military... we have to have...", and on down the nauseating list of failure-based assumptions upon which nearly everyone hangs their justifications for tyranny. "Well, I don't like it that much, but we HAVE to do these things....", "everybody has to pay their fair share." Oh really? Who the hell says?

 

[PaulConventionWV]

You missed the point.

The point is, if you help people discover that the right to build your life is stolen and we have already given our lives up to the machine, despite the tons of propaganda designed to obscure that, then you can do something about it sooner, and you have more help when you do.

More importantly, you have had a chance before that moment to teach people what they are fighting for. Which is important, because if you don't you wind up watching everyone fighting to get something even worse.

No, I understand your point. My point is this stuff is happening all the time. Our rights are being taken away, and you'll never get to demonstrate that if all you do is talk about it. Many activists do it right by pushing the boundaries and showing how the system has treated them unfairly. Those who choose to participate in the beauty pageant to see who the king should be, regardless of what they may be saying while they're doing it, are missing a vital opportunity to fill a need of the market. If filling that need attracts the government's attention, then all the better because now you have a chance to fight them and demonstrate their unfairness rather than simply talk about it. Not only that, but in the process, you are supposedly still doing something productive for society rather than nothing. In other words, fight them when they come after you. That way, you at least know that those who want what you have to offer will stand with you.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

All well and good, but this has nothing to do with the efforts being made here. I wan't speaking about voting at all, was I? My point was that giving up on freedom was the worst response to the encroaching tyrant. You obviously feel differently. That is your prerogative. Don't like voting? Think it is futile? I agree, but that's not in any measure the entire universe of possible responses.

Who's giving up on freedom? I'm saying live it, don't just talk about it. Fight them when they come. Don't become them to fight them.

I would add that you erect a false dichotomy, whether intentionally or otherwise, when you implied that one either does nothing or starts shooting. There is a whole lot that ought to come before that. At times I think we have gone past that point and at others I don't. Part of the human condition, I suppose. Regardless, even if we started shooting yesterday, what would it buy us in terms of proceeding in the aftermath? Nothing. Why? Because the vast and overwhelming wad of humanity has absolutely no idea how to live beyond the parameters of tyranny, regardless of how seemingly benign it may appear. What kind of a world... hell, NATION would we put in the place of what we now have? For want of the most basic understanding of proper human relations we would erect yet another tyranny because people are simply unwilling to let go of the base assumptions that lead to tyranny every single time such that you can set your clocks by it.

I'm not aware of implying that at all. What I meant is that, although probably a bad idea in the vast majority of scenarios, shooting is doing more than voting. I'm not one to tell people when they've lost enough to risk it all, but the political game in general is far less meaningful than even one man's act of vengeance against the state for ruining his life when he tried to fill a demand of the market. Of course, shooting is not the only viable option in that scenario, either, but it's something to think about.

 

[younglibertarian]

I'm glad this forum is still around. I didn't know sane people still existed on the internet.......

 

[kfarnan]

Liberty is more than one battle. Even if all was accomplished, there would be a continuous war for personal freedom.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Purging posters, cutting down on pesky liberty? Am I getting close?