What effect would a PA win have?

[Midnight77]

Did you see my post a couple pages back where I said McCain will win the popular vote in a landslide? Did you see where I said this doesnt matter?

Getting 5% of the popular vote is completely irrelevant.

Since you seem to know so much about pa, care to tell me how the delegates are elected?

I never said anything like PA is going to be a "turning point." You and that other guy sure love to put words into my mouth. Both of you need to take some remedial english classes to learn the proper use of quotations. All I ever said was we have a good chance of winning the majority of delegates in PA. Do you think that is a worthy thing to pursue?

Also, my young friend, could you try to be just a little bit less condescending in your replies?

No, I don't think it is a worthy thing to pursue. Because it won't accomplish anything. It is too late in the game. And that is being a realist.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish, may I ask?

To answer your question about the delegates in PA ...

57 congressional district delegates are directly elected by primary voters (3 per congressional district).

5 are allocated to the 5 congressional districts that have best supported the party per Rule 8.2. These delegates are directly elected by primary voters.

10 are selected by members of the Republican State Committee of Pennsylvania per Rule 8.3.

3 party leader delegates (the National Committeeman, the National Committeewoman, and the chairman of the Pennsylvania's Republican Party) will attend the convention by virtue of their position.

All of the Commonwealth's district delegates will go to the Republican National Convention officially 'Unpledged'.

Now, how many of these delegates are Ron Paul delegates, and what assurances do you have that these delegates will vote for Ron Paul regardless, despite the fact that McCain will win the true Popular vote in a landslide, like we discussed?

Furthermore, if the majority of the people voted for McCain, why should the delegates ignore the popular vote and vote for Ron Paul? Is this something you condone? Is this really democracy?

 

[brandon]

I feel like we are going in circles....

No, I don't think it is a worthy thing to pursue. Because it won't accomplish anything. It is too late in the game. And that is being a realist.

What exactly do you hope to accomplish, may I ask?

You will find the answer to this in a post I made on the third page of this thread. In addition to that, the more delegates we have the more of a voice we have at the RNC. Regardless of if we dont win (which we most likely wont) at the RNC, If we can have a substantial showing at the convention it will bring validity to our movement. They wont be able to write us of so easily in 2008 if we make a good showing this time.

Now, how many of these delegates are Ron Paul delegates, and what assurances do you have that these delegates will vote for Ron Paul regardless, despite the fact that McCain will win the true Popular vote in a landslide, like we discussed?

You will find the answer to this in a post I made on the second page of this thread. We have just slightly under half of the delegates running. We know that these are Ron Paul delegates because they were hand selected from the thousands of RP grassroots workers statewide in PA.

Last month there was a massive grass roots signature collection process in PA. In a thee week period we collected over 25,000 signatures from registered republicans to secure ballot access for our delegates and Ron Paul. Why dont you email our state coordinator and let him know this was a waste of time and we should just give up. I'm sure he would be glad to know.

Furthermore, if the majority of the people voted for McCain, why should the delegates ignore the popular vote and vote for Ron Paul? Is this something you condone? Is this really democracy?

No, this is not really democracy. That is because we don't live in a democracy. I would figure as a Ron Paul supporter you would know our government is a constitutional republic. The founders understood the ignorance and gullability of the average voter, and employed a system where people who were active in politics beyond just voting would have a larger say. There is nothing immoral or unamerican about delegates voting against the popular vote if they feel it is in the best interest of the country. That is why we have representatives instead of a direct democracy.



In addition, the delegates opposing us in most districts are not voting the will of the people anyway. Most of the "other" delegate candidates have pledges to vote "Will of the Committee" which means they will vote for who the republican committee people tell them to vote for. In many of these cases the delegate candidates ARE the chairs and vice chairs of the local committee's, meaning they will vote for whoever they want.




"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." -Winston Churchill

"Let it not be said that we did nothing" - Ron Paul

 

[FindLiberty]

Long long awaited,
in an election far far away...

"Help me faithless elector,
you’re my only hope."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector


I don't want Liberty or Ron Paul to take the (false)
blame for all the problems our government has created.

Just wait 'till the masses get a full whiff of the “soon-
to-hit-the-fan” $ hit.

 

[Eric21ND]

I'm for anything that screws McCain....Go Penn!! We should blitz the airwaves with tv/radio ads.

 

[Midnight77]

Lengthy reply coming later today when I have some free time. I just wanted to point out that your last sentence should completely discredit everything you say. We dont live in a democracy. We live in a republic, for a very specific reason. Of course it is OK to ignore the popular vote.

You would hope it would discredit everything, but it doesn't. I realize we live in a Republic. Thank you so much for pointing that out. However, apparently those of us who believe in True Democracy are not willing to truly follow the "will of the People" unless it suits your own personal agenda.

So you would condone the Superdelegates voting for Hillary instead of Barack Obama, instead ... even though he would, in theory, win the Popular Vote?

Having a small group (in the big scope of things ... it actually is a small group), of loudmouth Ron Paul supporters going around and making lots of noise about losing our rights, our sovereignty, etc. clearly makes you look like a bunch of lunatics to the rest of the people. That is one of the reasons nobody took the Paul supporters seriously this election. The supporters, while their hearts were in the right spot, were arrogant to automatically assume that we were going to "take over the GOP".

If the majority of the Republican Party are dumb enough to nominate McCain to office, I think they should live with the consequences of their actions. Ultimately, this is what it is going to take to wake the people up and figure it out for themselves. A group of loudmouth supporters isn't quite cutting it.

I am still interested in hearing what your goals are and what you would like to specifically see come out of this prolonged process. Additionally, what are your realistic expectations for the delegate situation in Pennsylvania? And, what do you expect to happen at the Convention?

 

[brandon]

You would hope it would discredit everything, but it doesn't. I realize we live in a Republic. Thank you so much for pointing that out. However, apparently those of us who believe in True Democracy are not willing to truly follow the "will of the People" unless it suits your own personal agenda.

So you would condone the Superdelegates voting for Hillary instead of Barack Obama, instead ... even though he would, in theory, win the Popular Vote?

Having a small group (in the big scope of things ... it actually is a small group), of loudmouth Ron Paul supporters going around and making lots of noise about losing our rights, our sovereignty, etc. clearly makes you look like a bunch of lunatics to the rest of the people. That is one of the reasons nobody took the Paul supporters seriously this election. The supporters, while their hearts were in the right spot, were arrogant to automatically assume that we were going to "take over the GOP".

If the majority of the Republican Party are dumb enough to nominate McCain to office, I think they should live with the consequences of their actions. Ultimately, this is what it is going to take to wake the people up and figure it out for themselves. A group of loudmouth supporters isn't quite cutting it.

I am still interested in hearing what your goals are and what you would like to specifically see come out of this prolonged process. Additionally, what are your realistic expectations for the delegate situation in Pennsylvania? And, what do you expect to happen at the Convention?

Just replied, see above

 

[runderwo]

Having a small group (in the big scope of things ... it actually is a small group), of loudmouth Ron Paul supporters going around and making lots of noise about losing our rights, our sovereignty, etc. clearly makes you look like a bunch of lunatics to the rest of the people. That is one of the reasons nobody took the Paul supporters seriously this election. The supporters, while their hearts were in the right spot, were arrogant to automatically assume that we were going to "take over the GOP".

Sorry, but this is exactly how the neocons took over the GOP. They were a small group, generally considered lunatics by the right-wing political establishment, and didn't win elections, until they used their influence in the party, the think tanks, the media, and the rest of the political establishment, to get into positions of power where they were able to complete the hijack of the GOP.

And it seems the general public is just fine with the neocons now. Such is the fate of any political movement that aims to "shift the center". The question is whether the ideology is attractive enough to drive people to fight for it. The ideology of American one-world hegemony and the assumed comfort we would enjoy after its enactment is attractive, but it contradicts the ideology of freedom, which we are in the process of demonstrating is more powerful.

You can nay-say all you want, but rest assure that nobody is listening, because you are giving advice based on premises that are demonstrably incorrect. Sign waving and cheerleading does nothing. Pandering for votes is only a short-term victory. Dedication to principle, and working that principle through the political process is everything in American politics.

 

[Andrew76]

The point is this: if the game is still on, then the game is still on. We fight this out to the absolute bitter end, even if it looks like a 99.9999% chance of a loss.

To those who want to throw in the towel, (for what reason, I'm still waiting to hear), go right ahead and start doing nothing.

This process is still ongoing, so there's absolutely no good reason whatsoever to stop what we're doing. Futhermore, we've got nothing to lose by continuing the campaign, even in the face of a likely loss. So, it confounds me to no end, as to why some of you continue to get on here and try to convince us all of the necessity of giving up. I've asked it a million times now, and I'll ask it again: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE? Are you a supporter or not? If you're a supporter of Ron Paul's, then you'll agree that we must continue to move forward, no matter the odds. If not, then piss off.

 

[brandon]

So you would condone the Superdelegates voting for Hillary instead of Barack Obama, instead ... even though he would, in theory, win the Popular Vote?

First of all, this is a totally different situation. The "superdelegates" are not elected, they are appointed by the party. The delegates in PA are directly elected by the people.

Second, I couldn't care less who the "superdelegates" vote for. Obama and Hillary are clones, why would this even matter?

 

[brandon]

The point is this: if the game is still on, then the game is still on. We fight this out to the absolute bitter end, even if it looks like a 99.9999% chance of a loss.

To those who want to throw in the towel, (for what reason, I'm still waiting to hear), go right ahead and start doing nothing.

This process is still ongoing, so there's absolutely no good reason whatsoever to stop what we're doing. Futhermore, we've got nothing to lose by continuing the campaign, even in the face of a likely loss. So, it confounds me to no end, as to why some of you continue to get on here and try to convince us all of the necessity of giving up. I've asked it a million times now, and I'll ask it again: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING HERE? Are you a supporter or not? If you're a supporter of Ron Paul's, then you'll agree that we must continue to move forward, no matter the odds. If not, then piss off.

QFT

 

[Andrew76]

Sorry, but this is exactly how the neocons took over the GOP. They were a small group, generally considered lunatics by the right-wing political establishment, and didn't win elections, until they used their influence in the party, the think tanks, the media, and the rest of the political establishment, to get into positions of power where they were able to complete the hijack of the GOP.

And it seems the general public is just fine with the neocons now. Such is the fate of any political movement that aims to "shift the center". The question is whether the ideology is attractive enough to drive people to fight for it. The ideology of American one-world hegemony and the assumed comfort we would enjoy after its enactment is attractive, but it contradicts the ideology of freedom, which we are in the process of demonstrating is more powerful.

You can nay-say all you want, but rest assure that nobody is listening, because you are giving advice based on premises that are demonstrably incorrect. Sign waving and cheerleading does nothing. Pandering for votes is only a short-term victory. Dedication to principle, and working that principle through the political process is everything in American politics.

Precisely.

 

[Midnight77]

As far as the towel throwing, one has to know when to do so. I have donated to Paul's campaign twice ... first time I have ever done so for a candidate. And needless to say, he ran a terrible campaign. This is the fault of who he decided to put in the positions he did. He knew full well that the Media would be an uphill climb. Knowing this in advance, and if he was serious about becoming the nominee, he knew he would need a seasoned campaign manager and he did not have this. Hope of accomplishing anything this election is lost. Therefore, I am throwing the towel in, and I'm looking at what we got, to make a choice between the lesser of 3 evils ... which I think is Barack Obama.

Educating people is not something that one group of supporters, such as yourselves, can accomplish. As much as you hate it, it is the truth. People like to be told by the Media who their choices are. And they will continue to rely on the Media. This isn't going to change, no matter how much you may want it to.

The things that are going wrong in this country today are things voters need to figure out on their own. Your words aren't going to make a difference, and I think that point was conceded in the Primaries, thus far ... as we didn't make a dent in the outcome. And, I hate to say it, but I think voters really need to be college educated to understand the broader scope of things.

So what are you going to do about the huge Hispanic Population that does not have the education necessary to make informed decisions?

What are you going to do about the Black population who's allegiances are voting for one of their own?

What are you going to do about the Feminists who vote based on Gender and will do anything to break the Glass Ceiling and get a Woman Elected to the White House?

Again, nothing you do or say is going to change the minds of these voters. And if you think otherwise, I'll be happy to talk to you in another 4 years to see if anything has changed since today and the upcoming election. Hell, I'll be happy to talk to you in 8 years and see if anything has changed.

These are things people really need to be Educated for to understand ... and ultimately things people need to figure out on their own.

 

[runderwo]

whine, Democracy, mass media, will of the people, whine

You are worshipping at the altar of Democracy and buying into the myths and wishful thinking that the pandering politicians and the mass media have sold to you -- especially that democracy should rule and guide your actions, rather than the value of your own freedom and your own self-respect.

You are also guilty of myopic thinking, which you have betrayed by indicating a vote for Senator Obama as the lesser of three evils.

If you can't make a difference with your vote, act in a way that makes a difference. If you don't know how to act in a way that makes a difference, ask someone who knows. That's what we all did, you know. You have no more power than any one of us has.

Posting incessant whining and misinformation on this board, on the other hand, is a comical waste of your time, and counterproductive to your supposed beliefs.

 

[Midnight77]

You are worshipping at the altar of Democracy and buying into the myths and wishful thinking that the pandering politicians and the mass media have sold to you -- especially that democracy should rule and guide your actions, rather than the value of your own freedom and your own self-respect.

You are also guilty of myopic thinking, which you have betrayed by indicating a vote for Senator Obama as the lesser of three evils.

If you can't make a difference with your vote, act in a way that makes a difference. If you don't know how to act in a way that makes a difference, ask someone who knows. That's what we all did, you know. You have no more power than any one of us has.

Posting incessant whining and misinformation on this board, on the other hand, is a comical waste of your time, and counterproductive to your supposed beliefs.

It's not whining. It's trying to sink into the heads of the rest of you, who caused no dent whatsoever in the Primaries, that where as what you are doing is admirable, will not have any effect whatsoever on things in this country.

I don't recall ever saying I had any more power than you, but it is obvious to me that you guys with your talk of "taking over the GOP" yadda yadda yadda ... are no where near as big as you think you are. Rather you come across as a group of people with good intentions, but unrealistic expectations ... and very big mouths ... which have done nothing but turn off voters. It's time to be brought back down to Planet Earth.

I don't see what your end goals are. I don't think you even have any except for to "have a voice at the Convention" ... whatever you hope to accomplish there ... who knows?

This nomination has been decided. And things will continue the way they are in the GOP.

I would really like to see the Libertarian Party brought to prominence, but that won't happen either. There are too many people in this country that do not care about politics, and the problem is that you can not convince these people to care.

 

[SimpleName]

Extreme northeast PA appears to be packed with Ron paul supporters. Those are the only signs you see anywhere around here for any candidate. And more keep popping up. It is great! I hope it is like this elsewhere.

 

[AisA1787]

I'm looking at what we got, to make a choice between the lesser of 3 evils ... which I think is Barack Obama.

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Obama is a socialist through and through. Friggin' Qaddafi likes him for christs sakes man. Don't let him pull the wool over your eyes, please!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,335993,00.html

Libyan strongman Col. Muammar al-Qaddafi weighed in on America's presidential campaign, specifically commenting on both Democratic rivals' repeated calls for "change."
"I've seen that in America, a candidate who wants people to vote for him keeps talking about change," Qaddafi said earlier this week in a televised address on Libyan TV, an obvious reference to Barack Obama.
"They all keep saying 'change, change,' " he continued, adding Hillary Clinton to his reference. "They want to change America and its current political system. They want to make a change in their lives. They say their system is a failure, that their government is a failure, and that their elections are a failure."
Qaddafi offered up Libya as a model for "change," predicting that "the whole world will return to the model of the republic of the masses, to communes, to popular security, to popular defense, to popular capitalism, and to popular socialism.
"The whole world will return to the Libyan model," he said.

 

[Midnight77]

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Obama is a socialist through and through. Friggin' Qaddafi likes him for christs sakes man. Don't let him pull the wool over your eyes, please!

I suppose Hillary or McCain would make a better choice, then?

Sorry, but you only have 3 electable choices this election, whether you like it or not. There is no Choice D that is electable.

Of those 3, he is the lesser of 3 evils. And I am not throwing away my vote to put McCain or Clinton in office. If it comes down to Hillary and McCain, I don't know what I'll do. I haven't figured out who's worse in that pair.

 

[Rahl]

I suppose Hillary or McCain would make a better choice, then?

Sorry, but you only have 3 electable choices this election, whether you like it or not. There is no Choice D that is electable.

Of those 3, he is the lesser of 3 evils. And I am not throwing away my vote to put McCain or Clinton in office. If it comes down to Hillary and McCain, I don't know what I'll do. I haven't figured out who's worse in that pair.

why is he the lesser of 3 evils ?
because you are inviting him for 4 years into "your" whitehouse, and he seems like the guest that you will have the most pleasant time with.

but you also have to consider what team your guest brings with him, and in obamas case it is zbigniew brzezinski, an absolut megalomaniac and in my opinion a far greater threat to the world than any neocon.

 

[runderwo]

I don't see what your end goals are. I don't think you even have any except for to "have a voice at the Convention" ... whatever you hope to accomplish there ... who knows?

You haven't a clue. Join a Meetup. There's a reason talk about what is really going on is light on these boards. But you won't join a meetup, because there's no point. Because in the end, you don't care as much as you claim to. You don't care enough to get out there and see what is really going on, much less to be a part of it. Whatever it is that you do with your time, that is more important to you. And that is your choice. But don't whine and pretend like you don't have a choice, and worse, drag others down with you. You have the same choice the rest of us do. Your failure to use that choice to affect positive change cannot be blamed on anyone but yourself.

I would really like to see the Libertarian Party brought to prominence, but that won't happen either.

Of course you do.

After all, there are a lot of people who would like to see the Libertarian Party brought to prominence, but they also say that won't happen. Therefore, the LP will not be brought to prominence.

Catch my drift yet?

 

[affa]

Midnight77 - your version of reality bites.