What does the Bible teach about witchcraft--any kind and pagan worship?

[moostraks]

moos--where are the accusations that you speak of with regard to this discussion on paganism? Find a quote and let's discuss it.

I have been trying to explain to you that the variety in pagans is broader than Christianity so if you want to share the Love of Christ you have to get on an individual level and hear what the person is saying whom you are speaking to about their practices. Tailor the medicine to the illness so to speak if that is your intention. You cannot just throw Scripture at most pagans because most know all that you are going to throw at them and many left because they never saw a witness of Love in Christians.

It has not helped you keep assuming I am pagan just because I walked that path for awhile. Not as how it pertains to me, but it shows that you are going to ride any pagan professing person every time they blink and accuse them because they cannot remove the stain. Were I to be at that place with regards to Christianity at that time as I was pagan, it would just drive me further away from anything that is said because it appears that Christians don't really believe Christ can conquer anything.

 

[Terry1]

So you mean turning water into wine, walking on water, raising the dead... that kind of witchcraft? lol I would consider myself a deist or neopagan but I abhor labels, so...

There is nothing wrong with people understanding the natural cycles of the earth/moon... the seasons and solstices... actually Freemasonry is very pagan in that regard, which is probably why closed-minded Christians don't like freemasonry!

This is a non issue.

Interesting. I'd ask you then--if you had a choice to practice a belief in anything--what would you choose? Would it be something tangible or something intangible and why?

Also--considering that scientists have alluded to the fact that they can find no beginning or ending to anything in existence today. So if one is going to choose to believe in something--why would anyone choose something or anything lower than a supreme power capable of such creation itself. Obviously mankind is as clueless today as they were thousands of years ago. Mankind has only learned how to manipulate creation without ever actually having created any thing themselves from nothing at all.

So if I was an unbeliever--I'd have to look at this logically and think to myself--there had to be a reason and purpose behind all of this, so if I'm going to bow down and subscribe to anything--it certainly isn't going to that which is already created--but something or someone far greater than that.

 

[moostraks]

Do you believe paganism to only be about "understanding natural cycles?" Is mysticism required for that? I don't consider an almanac to be pagan. When people sought to control natural cycles through ritual worship is when the problems started IMO.

Southern Baptists ime were not too keen on seeing nature as anything but an object. I put down the Bible for awhile and sought the Creator in his creation. I was resentful towards all the hate I heard sitting in the pews and pointing fingers at others. For me, I didn't want to control anything. I wanted to see with new eyes all that had been stripped of its God given beauty. I sought out those who taught or believed in rejecting negativity.

 

[jllundqu]

Interesting. I'd ask you then--if you had a choice to practice a belief in anything--what would you choose? Would it be something tangible or something intangible and why?

Also--considering that scientists have alluded to the fact that they can find no beginning or ending to anything in existence today. So if one is going to choose to believe in something--why would anyone choose something or anything lower than a supreme power capable of such creation itself. Obviously mankind is as clueless today as they were thousands of years ago. Mankind has only learned how to manipulate creation without ever actually having created any thing themselves from nothing at all.

So if I was an unbeliever--I'd have to look at this logically and think to myself--there had to be a reason and purpose behind all of this, so if I'm going to bow down and subscribe to anything--it certainly isn't going to that which is already created--but something or someone far greater than that.

My answer is simple. I am not an 'unbeliever' as you put it. I absolutely believe in God. I believe God created the universe and everything in it. That is my conclusion from a long and careful study of science and nature. It's Christianity I don't believe in. To me, Christianity is no different than people who worshipped Zeus and were afraid he'd throw lightning at them for every transgression. God is real, but I don't believe for one second that he (she? it?) rewards the righteous or punishes the wicked depending on how much one prays or believes.

 

[Terry1]

I have been trying to explain to you that the variety in pagans is broader than Christianity so if you want to share the Love of Christ you have to get on an individual level and hear what the person is saying whom you are speaking to about their practices. Tailor the medicine to the illness so to speak if that is your intention. You cannot just throw Scripture at most pagans because most know all that you are going to throw at them and many left because they never saw a witness of Love in Christians.

It has not helped you keep assuming I am pagan just because I walked that path for awhile. Not as how it pertains to me, but it shows that you are going to ride any pagan professing person every time they blink and accuse them because they cannot remove the stain. Were I to be at that place with regards to Christianity at that time as I was pagan, it would just drive me further away from anything that is said because it appears that Christians don't really believe Christ can conquer anything.

Now for the first time in a while--I am truly understanding your struggle here--before--not so much--hence the disputes--sorry for those btw. Since we can't undo what's already been said and done on both our parts--let's start here fresh and anew with this shall we?

From what I'm seeing is that you're having a hard time letting go of something you once practiced thinking it was good--obviously by your own statement here in this thread--you still believe it's worth defending. What both Louise and I are attempting to show is that until you truly understand that the defense of this practice and support of it is not Biblical or Christian in any way shape or form.

For example: Jesus preached to the drunks and prostitutes--he went over and sat down with them and much to the dismay of His own disciples--whom Jesus rebuked and corrected for their error in judgment against Jesus doing this. Jesus *sat with them*--He did not support what they were doing-nor did He encourage what they were doing, but rather reached out to them in a friendly gesture of love with a message of truth--trying to reveal to them a better way--a better life that would lead them to God and eternal security with Him. Jesus never defended their adultery or drunkenness--what He gave them was a message of life and love telling them that what they were doing is not of God--it was evil and to repent and be forgiven.

Do you understand how your defense of paganism does not reconcile with your confession of being a Christian? They are oil and water--they will never mix. You're trying to serve two different masters by doing so and no one is getting hurt by this but you and you alone--other than those you're convincing that what you're doing is right--when it's not--it's just wrong.

I don't know how else to say this without offending you--really--this isn't a message of hate or insult--it's truly with regard to your eternal soul. God loves you--and because He loves you wants you to understand these things for your own good.

 

[jllundqu]

Interesting. I'd ask you then--if you had a choice to practice a belief in anything--what would you choose? Would it be something tangible or something intangible and why?

Also--considering that scientists have alluded to the fact that they can find no beginning or ending to anything in existence today. So if one is going to choose to believe in something--why would anyone choose something or anything lower than a supreme power capable of such creation itself. Obviously mankind is as clueless today as they were thousands of years ago. Mankind has only learned how to manipulate creation without ever actually having created any thing themselves from nothing at all.

So if I was an unbeliever--I'd have to look at this logically and think to myself--there had to be a reason and purpose behind all of this, so if I'm going to bow down and subscribe to anything--it certainly isn't going to that which is already created--but something or someone far greater than that.

And your basically paraphrasing Pascal's Wager... It's better to believe in God and be wrong than to not believe in God and be right.

 

[Terry1]

My answer is simple. I am not an 'unbeliever' as you put it. I absolutely believe in God. I believe God created the universe and everything in it. That is my conclusion from a long and careful study of science and nature. It's Christianity I don't believe in. To me, Christianity is no different than people who worshipped Zeus and were afraid he'd throw lightning at them for every transgression. God is real, but I don't believe for one second that he (she? it?) rewards the righteous or punishes the wicked depending on how much one prays or believes.

Unfortunately--as horrible as labels can be--they are a necessary evil in order to understand each other. All Christians are not equal--just the same as anything else in life. We have flaws because we're all still human. I think a lot of unbelievers think that because we have this label--we're automatically supposed to be prefect in all aspects of humanity--we are not. All we are is a people who are struggling to get through this life just like everyone else, but we simply have a different goal and that is to be like Christ the best we can. Many of us fail at times and we have to start over. This is a process that includes just about anything any one believes in or subscribes to because we're all fallible and capable of error.

 

[Kevin007]

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism interesting article..... http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html another one as well.

 

[jmdrake]

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism interesting article..... http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html another one as well.

LOL

 

[Terry1]

And your basically paraphrasing Pascal's Wager... It's better to believe in God and be wrong than to not believe in God and be right.

Pascal was also a scientist and mathematician who looked at things logically. God meets people where they are--not where He wants to be. Everyone comes to see things from different perspectives in life. Some find God through science, some through pain and suffering, some through healing, some through other people, places and events. God is not limited to one genre of folk or geographical location--He's every where His children are. God is not predictable so no one can presume upon what He'll do or who He chooses to do whatever needs to be done to hasten or tarry His grand plan and design. God is pure light--there is no darkness in Him at all as His word says.

All of these things have been proven, but only able to be seen by those given the spiritual sight to see them with--otherwise they remain a mystery and nothing more than a story to be told by those who can not see. The evidence is overwhelming that surrounds us in everything see see-feel and are able to communicate with on a daily basis. I was blind, but now I see.

Millions upon millions of people have been given this sight and believe by the grace of God.

 

[Terry1]

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism interesting article..... http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html another one as well.

Kevin--please stick to the topic. Surely God has extended His loving grace to both Catholics and Protestants alike who love the Lord with all of their heart. This isn't the time for arguing over doctrinal differences within the body of Christ. We are battling for souls here caught up in the occult practices. Focus--Lol There's a time and a thread for everything under the sun.

 

[Jamesiv1]

Originally posted by Louise:
............"What is a 'Cult?' "

1. a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous
2. a situation in which people admire and care about something or someone very much or too much
3. a small group of very devoted supporters or fans

1. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
2. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies

1. A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object
2. A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister

For 300 years Christianity was considered a cult and a crime punishable by death.

When they start calling you names (and pejorative labels), you know you're winning.

 

[moostraks]

Now for the first time in a while--I am truly understanding your struggle here--before--not so much--hence the disputes--sorry for those btw. Since we can't undo what's already been said and done on both our parts--let's start here fresh and anew with this shall we?

From what I'm seeing is that you're having a hard time letting go of something you once practiced thinking it was good--obviously by your own statement here in this thread--you still believe it's worth defending. What both Louise and I are attempting to show is that until you truly understand that the defense of this practice and support of it is not Biblical or Christian in any way shape or form.

For example: Jesus preached to the drunks and prostitutes--he went over and sat down with them and much to the dismay of His own disciples--whom Jesus rebuked and corrected for their error in judgment against Jesus doing this. Jesus *sat with them*--He did not support what they were doing-nor did He encourage what they were doing, but rather reached out to them in a friendly gesture of love with a message of truth--trying to reveal to them a better way--a better life that would lead them to God and eternal security with Him. Jesus never defended their adultery or drunkenness--what He gave them was a message of life and love telling them that what they were doing is not of God--it was evil and to repent and be forgiven.

Do you understand how your defense of paganism does not reconcile with your confession of being a Christian? They are oil and water--they will never mix. You're trying to serve two different masters by doing so and no one is getting hurt by this but you and you alone--other than those you're convincing that what you're doing is right--when it's not--it's just wrong.

I don't know how else to say this without offending you--really--this isn't a message of hate or insult--it's truly with regard to your eternal soul. God loves you--and because He loves you wants you to understand these things for your own good.

Lol, I'm not struggling nor reconciling anything at present. Since you proceed from this premise with the rest of the prescription from there, well, I appreciate the intent behind what you are attempting to do but um, well, what more can I say? You aren't offending me because you don't know me.

People can wrap themselves in whatever external manifestation they wish but it doesn't change the heart and the heart is what we are judged by. Others can judge us by our fruits.

I don't begrudge or regret my path because I have never been completely alone nor have I consorted with the lords of darkness. I tuned out noise and sought Him within creation. It wasn't proper to do so in the schools of thought I was in at the time. I gained much deeper growth for having walked away from the toxicity of religion.

My faith is Love and I trust in His Wisdom.

~~~peace

 

[Ender]

Just thought I'd mention that the original writings in the Bible do not mention pagans or witches.

The original wording that now says "pagans" speak of gentiles or the other people; the "suffer a witch not to live" was put in for King James, who hated witches. The original said murderer or poisoner.

 

[phill4paul]

To the OP. For a time Norse mythology appealed to me. This would be around the age of 18-21 or so after coming from a Christian upbringing. This led me into a further study of mythology and the Pantheons created by man in all aspects. Their similarities and dis-similarities. There is really so much out there in the history of mankind that a broad understanding is the best one can hope for.
In my way I have come to an understanding that there is a light and a dark. That there is good and evil. That there are supernatural constructs that exist, are created by, the minds of men and given shape or form by their beliefs.
An interesting story from that time period that I was a worshiper of the Norse pantheon. I was in the Navy. A friend was on deployment and my Japanese girlfriend and I went to dinner at his wife's house. He and his wife were Catholics. She confided to me that she believed an evil presence had entered her life and that this evil presence was causing turmoil in their relationship. I volunteered to do battle with this demon with my totemic spirit (fylgjur). My spirit was one of Odin's, the All Father, the wolf. This was before wolves were memes. And so we sat down three feet from each other, I called on this fylgjur and then I called her demon to do battle. It took several hours. During this time there were heat/light fluctuations in the room and it seemed a mask came over my friends wife's face on and off again. I called on the demon to leave. At times she spoke in tongues. And though I did not move from a seated position I was drenched in sweat and my muscles were knotted. And then it was over. I told her she was free from her manifestation.
Time went by. They moved on. I received a postcard from her thanking me. She said their marriage had never been better. That after that night it was like a darkness was lifted. I'd put it all up to hallucination but my Japanese girlfriend, who spoke little to no English, described these same physical manifestations to me afterwards through my language handbook.
So what did I learn from this? I suppose that there is energy good and bad. That this energy can assume physical form if enough belief is put into it. That this energy can be harnessed for both good and evil purposes.
Pantheons come and go. Eventually, so too will Christianity, and Islam, and Buddhism. As they did for the Norse, Romans and Greeks. They will amalgamate. Transform. As all religions have since man has constructed them.

Edit: Sorry, meant to post in this thread:http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471520-Any-Other-Germanic-Pagans but it works just as well here so I will leave it.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Originally posted by Louise:
............"What is a 'Cult?' "

For 300 years Christianity was considered a cult and a crime punishable by death.

When they start calling you names (and pejorative labels), you know you're winning.

Normally, yup. But the Regime is increasingly becoming the object of nasty names/pejoratives and is losing on several fronts.

 

[Jamesiv1]

Normally, yup. But the Regime is increasingly becoming the object of nasty names/pejoratives and is losing on several fronts.

Yup - I should have said "Usually, you know you're winning"

 

[Terry1]

To the OP. For a time Norse mythology appealed to me. This would be around the age of 18-21 or so after coming from a Christian upbringing. This led me into a further study of mythology and the Pantheons created by man in all aspects. Their similarities and dis-similarities. There is really so much out there in the history of mankind that a broad understanding is the best one can hope for.
In my way I have come to an understanding that there is a light and a dark. That there is good and evil. That there are supernatural constructs that exist, are created by, the minds of men and given shape or form by their beliefs.
An interesting story from that time period that I was a worshiper of the Norse pantheon. I was in the Navy. A friend was on deployment and my Japanese girlfriend and I went to dinner at his wife's house. He and his wife were Catholics. She confided to me that she believed an evil presence had entered her life and that this evil presence was causing turmoil in their relationship. I volunteered to do battle with this demon with my totemic spirit (fylgjur). My spirit was one of Odin's, the All Father, the wolf. This was before wolves were memes. And so we sat down three feet from each other, I called on this fylgjur and then I called her demon to do battle. It took several hours. During this time there were heat/light fluctuations in the room and it seemed a mask came over my friends wife's face on and off again. I called on the demon to leave. At times she spoke in tongues. And though I did not move from a seated position I was drenched in sweat and my muscles were knotted. And then it was over. I told her she was free from her manifestation.
Time went by. They moved on. I received a postcard from her thanking me. She said their marriage had never been better. That after that night it was like a darkness was lifted. I'd put it all up to hallucination but my Japanese girlfriend, who spoke little to no English, described these same physical manifestations to me afterwards through my language handbook.
So what did I learn from this? I suppose that there is energy good and bad. That this energy can assume physical form if enough belief is put into it. That this energy can be harnessed for both good and evil purposes.
Pantheons come and go. Eventually, so too will Christianity, and Islam, and Buddhism. As they did for the Norse, Romans and Greeks. They will amalgamate. Transform. As all religions have since man has constructed them.

Edit: Sorry, meant to post in this thread:http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471520-Any-Other-Germanic-Pagans but it works just as well here so I will leave it.

I truly appreciate the time you took to share this and I can see why you would believe that people create these positive or negative energies as well given your past experiences.

The experience that I shared in the other pagan thread about a friend who's entire family was being harassed spiritually is also very true. God's word has existed since the forming of the foundations of this word. It was never written down until later. Theological and scientific studies have also shown the earth is not nearly as old as many believe it to be, and there is also something called Gap Theory that we won't get into now either, but serves to give evidence that God has always been with no beginning or end--the same as everything that's created.

The spiritual realm is more real than this world we live in because it is an unseen reality that exist on another different plane of existence. People are blinded to this realm for both good and bad reasons. Gods word says that if the scales were dropped from our eyes, we would be able to see what is actually existing all around us that we can't normally see on a daily basis. Gods word also tells that when these scales were dropped from the eyes of Elisha--only then he saw the chariots of fire and the legions of the angels of God protecting them from evil.

The entire deception with evil as the word of God tells us is that it can only deceive someone when it appears to be something they want it to be. Evil can appear as a angel of light or they can convince someone that they too can accomplish miracles of healing and good--only to lead them further into something that eventually will turn darker and darker until it had hold of that human soul forever. This is the purpose of evil--the devil and his fallen angels is to appear as whatever people want to lure them into darkness further.

Gods word tells us the only way we can protect ourselves from this is to abide in Christ the savior and His Spirit alone. Only this will protect us from the evil that would otherwise tear mankind apart--literally. This is also why we are told to gird up in prayer every day with the spiritual armor of God that serves as an unseen spiritual hedge of protection around us. The only way to fight evil is spiritually and the only way to be protected from it is spiritually abiding in Christ our Lord and Savior.

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[Sola_Fide]

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_end-time_paganism_Catholic_Mithraism interesting article..... http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html another one as well.

Hey Kevin, be careful with the Amazing Discoveries website. They are Seventh Day Adventists. They believe Roman Catholicism is wrong because it is the figurehead of Sunday worship (not for the right reasons).

 

[Kevin007]

Hey Kevin, be careful with the Amazing Discoveries website. They are Seventh Day Adventists. They believe Roman Catholicism is wrong because it is the figurehead of Sunday worship (not for the right reasons).

gotcha. I def. do not agree with their sabbath keeping.