What does "Intelligent Design" even mean?

That's what I thought.

Geeze. What a dishonest chickenshit duck and dodge? BTW that kind of crap is exactly what I have come to routinely expect from the pathetic evolutionism "cult" faithful true believers.

Always a very sure sign of a BULLSHIT pseudo-science "cult" crapola and a con job.

Hell, I can get more honest answers from astrolgers, psychics, and voodoo witch doctors, than from the "brainwashed" programmed evolutionism sheeple bots.

"By their BULL SHIT non-answers, ye shall know them."
 
Once again, you fail to understand the assumptions of your own theory. On the creationist paradigm, there are no vestigial organs.

I think I am getting to the core of the entire debate. Perhaps this is why you seem to be getting frustrated and dismissive as the tone of your post indicates.

That claim is not necessary to understand the human anatomy for the creationist. Vestigial organs are just arbitrary observations of certain organs believed
to have been lost in evolutionary history in order to explain the discontinuity of structures between organisms, all of which presuppose common ancestry.

Dismissive tone.

It then becomes obvious that creationism rejects the hypothesis of vestigial organs because creationism assumes the structures of organisms were created with purpose in mind (some still to be revealed, perhaps),

So its blind faith? Observation be damned?

You say some function will be revealed. Can you see that was my whole point in the prior post.

Your theory ignores that which it can't explain and simply says in a manner of speaking: 'god made it, no questions asked'.

That does not appeal to those such as myself that subscribe to the notion that a technical theory that best fits
the current observable data is the best theory.

You cannot possibly 'win' this debate because you are putting imagination versus science. More on this below.

but nonetheless, the organs do not derive from some past evolutionary ancestor, fallen out of use over time.

You can only say that based on faith.

Vestigiality is what evolution proponents claim, so I don't even know why you expect the creationists to explain
vestigiality of organic structures when that is not even a part of their scientific apparatus. Asking the creationist to
describe vestigial structures is like asking the evolutionist to explain why God created humans with two eyes, two ears,
but only one nose and one mouth. I hope you see my point. For the creationist scientist, vestigiality in organisms is
simply moot.

Translation: We cannot explain it, so it doesn't matter to us.

Your analogy is false. I am asking you to explain observed physical characteristics, you are asking me to explain a
figment of your own imagination.

Unless you are implying that ones imagination removed from counter examples is 'just as good' an explanation of what
is around us as one that attempts to take into account all that we actually observe?

This is the thrust I am getting and let me tell you it is the wrong approach to take.

Why? Think about where this approach leads.

It means that whenever I see something I can just make up explanations for it based on my imagination and it would be just
as valid as anything else.

Example:

Event: Rain.
Explanation: Blue/Green Blob on Planet Yrrtip is emptying his bladder.

You would agree my explanation is false? If yes, then you would go with the water cycle explanation no?

If you think my explanation is correct, what if I change the colour of the being on Yrrtip, will you go along with it
then? It's fun to imagine isn't it?

Back to reality.

Why not apply the same strict scientific rigour to evolution as we did to rain?

If you haven't noticed to me this is all about applying a consistent standard and this time it happens to touch an area of biology.

Just for fun, let me ask you this: do whales have legs? Do crocodiles have feathers? Why would an organism have a sudden
urge to leave a body of water and walk on land if we never observe that same phenomenon happening today with any
water creatures? Why would that organism "evolve" lungs if it was just living fine underwater with gills?


I will address something in the above paragraph briefly. There was no "sudden". Evolution took place over millions of years.

However, this is not the point at contention right now. You have ignored the examples of vestigiality I produced and have
defended your position by saying it is moot, when it in fact runs core to the argument as to which theory is best in the sense
of explaining that which is observed right now by scientists.
 
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Agree to Disagree

So its blind faith? Observation be damned?

You say some function will be revealed.

That was my whole point. Your theory ignores that which it can't explain and
simply says in a manner of speaking it is gods will.

That does not appeal to those that subscribe to the notion that a theory that best describes what is currently known is the best theory such as myself.

Why should I as a creationist be obligated to explain something which I don't even believe exists? The examples you gave do not prove vestigial structure in organisms. The explanations given are just based on speculation about the history of the functionality of those organs.

Translation: We cannot explain it, so it doesn't matter to us.

Why did God create humans with two eyes, two ears, one nose, and one mouth? Don't you find that strange? Isn't it intriguing? The nose even has two nostrils in it, and it's facing downward. If it were facing upward, man would always drown when walking outside in the rain. Notice both hands have five fingers on them. Why did God do that? Couldn't He have given man ten fingers on each hand? If you can't explain these things, then you're just not being scientific... :rolleyes:

This is not the point at contention right now. You have ignored the examples of vestigiality I produced and have defended your position by saying it is moot, when it is in fact runs core to the argument as to which theory is best in the sense of explaining that which is observed right now by us mortals.

No. Like I've said, those examples do not prove vestigial structures. I don't agree with the interpretations of your observations of those structures that they have no functions.

Thank you. I can see clearly now, where you stand.

Let me summarise:

"Counter Evidence you cannot explain = Moot Evidence"

You have no evidence for vestigial structures. Your hypothesis is rejected. Next. I simply don't have the time to refute every single piece you consider evidence for vestigial structures. If you want more information from a creationist perspective on vestigial structures, Google it.
 
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Why should I as a creationist be obligated to explain something which I don't even believe exists? The examples you gave do not prove vestigial structure in organisms. The explanations given are just based on speculation about the history of the functionality of those organs.

Let us assume for a minute that the history of those organs can be anything, however if those organs
do not have a purpose, then why are they there according to your theory?

So far you said, doesn't matter.

To me that is not a valid approach if you expect to be taken seriously as a defender of ID.

ID is all about intelligent design and there doesn't seem to be much intelligence in putting
useless things into something you design.

Why did God create humans with two eyes, two ears, one nose, and one mouth? Don't you find that strange?
Isn't it intriguing? The nose even has two nostrils in it, and it's facing downward. If it were facing upward, man
would always drown when walking outside in the rain. Notice both hands have five fingers on them. Why did
God do that? Couldn't He have given man ten fingers on each hand? If you can't explain these things, then
you're just not being scientific... :rolleyes:

Well I would say to you the following:

God did not do any of these things.
God is part of your imagination.
That is where God exists, inside your own head.

Show me just one thing that directly proves God exists to show that I am wrong.

I do not mean point me to things you allege he created and say he exists because these things exist.

Indirect proof is not enough. Now, I do not mean to look down on indirect proof, but you must
understand that indirect proof is insufficient.

Why? Because there exists a contention for an alternative explanation for these objects which
withstands the scrutiny of rigorous scientific enquiry.

Thus, as you surely can appreciate only a direct proof that God exists would suffice to cross
justified scientific scepticism.

However, I know that you cannot do that and the reason is rather simple:

God exists solely in your imagination and while that is convincing to you and requires no other proof as
far as you are concerned, it is rather blunt to think it should be convincing to others who subscribe to
a different standard (i.e. scientific principles) than just blind faith.

Now, if we are to attempt to understand why man looks the way he does, we can start by observing
the world around us (rather than strictly inside our imagination) and try to come up with a theory that best fits
the known physical data.

So far as you know, I have come up with some items such as vestigial organs that show that ID
could not have happened by definition while at the same time supporting the evolution theory.

The case I put forth before you is very clear.

No. Like I've said, those examples do not prove vestigial structures. I don't agree with the interpretations of your observations
of those structures that they have no functions.

You are free to disagree with my interpretation. I humbly ask that you show me what functions if any these items have.

If they have any functions, show me if those functions are at all useful to humans.

You have no evidence for vestigial structures.

I believe my evidence comes from the posts I put earlier. All the structures are listed and explained in black and white.

Are you just being dismissive?

Your hypothesis is rejected.

That is simply wishful thinking.

Next. I simply don't have the time to refute every single piece you consider evidence for vestigial structures. If you want more
information from a creationist perspective on vestigial structures, Google it.

There is the frustrated tone that I indicated your posts have as of late.

Forgive me for thinking that the above equates to a man who lost an argument and has nothing more to say.

PS. Can you give me ID view on this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils

I would like to see how ID manages to dismiss all of that.

In addition, I would have also thought, that the assertion that Earth is only 6000 years old (which you seem to subscribe to)
to be rather inaccurate.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html#creadate

It seems that there is an abundance of data both earth and meteorite based to show that earth is over 4 billion years old.

Surely you can see that if the age of the earth is 4.5 billion years then that is long enough for the processes of
evolution to take place such that we see the life forms that are around us today.
 
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Evolution, Creationism, and Intelligent Design
by Charley Reese

I am an agnostic when it comes to explaining the origin of life. I don't believe yet in evolution, creationism or intelligent design. I can see flaws in all three. I just simply don't know and frankly don't think it matters whether we know or not.

My main conflict with the evolutionists is that they wish to assert their theory as fact and to employ government power to ban discussion of creationism and intelligent design on the grounds that they are unscientific or, worse from their point of view, religious. I am against banning any idea, theory, speculation or body of guesses. Human history shows us to be far too error-prone to go around eliminating dissent by majority vote of one of the more ignorant classes in our society, namely politicians.

Science has been itching to replace religion in Western culture for some time. You can see for yourself how science assumes the characteristics of religion. There is the priesthood (scientists, or at least those who call themselves scientists) and laity, which is the rest of us. Theory becomes dogma. Dissenters are persecuted. The high priests of science want the government not only to fund them, but to enforce their dogmas with the power of the law.

I believe in the separation of church and state. I also believe in the separation of science and state. In fact, I believe in the separation of practically all aspects of life from the state, which should basically tote the mail and guard the coast.

We, as mortals with short life spans, would not even be concerned about the origins of life, except the evolutionists wish to use their theory to destroy religion, and religious people want to use their theory to defend religion.

True science means simply the search for truth, but a search conducted with an open mind and tolerance for dissent. There is nothing wrong with a person believing that a dinosaur evolved into a canary, but there is also nothing wrong with someone believing that God created the first man and woman. I've never seen any physical evidence to support either belief, and one is no more improbable than the other. The only fact is that some beliefs have to be accepted on the basis of faith, and that goes for evolution as well as creationism.

The trouble is that both science and religion provide a person with a worldview, and unconsciously the person begins to evaluate everything he or she sees or hears or thinks up in accordance with the worldview. I see no reason to include any discussion of evolution or creationism in secondary schools. There is a large volume of facts biology students need to learn without wasting their time on theories that have no practical value. It's like teaching molecular physics to students studying auto mechanics.

There is always more to learn than there is time to learn it, so we should be more practical in designing our school curricula. Not every student needs to read Shakespeare or learn calculus. I've had no occasion to solve a quadratic equation since I left high school. Students should be taught only what will be useful to them. Survey courses – giving them a taste of what is on the large menu of learning – are useful. Practical courses, such as personal finance or typing, are useful. Teaching all children a second language would be extremely useful, as would be music and drawing.

We should try to keep ideological and political disputes out of the public schools. We have to recognize that fanatics and ideologues will try to inject their materials into the public schools, and we should guard against that. I truly despise people who try to use children in adult conflicts. We should also guard against the state imposing its views on the students. The best way to do that is to abolish public education, a great idea whose time I hope will come one day.

In the meantime, just remember that facts are scarcer than theories, speculation, assumptions and guesses.

May 5, 2008

Charley Reese [send him mail] has been a journalist for 49 years.
© 2008 by King Features Syndicate, Inc.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese452.html
 
Thinking in Darwinian Lockstep

by Fred Reed

Oh help. The religious orthodoxy that impedes discussion of biological evolution continues with its accustomed dreadful tenacity. I’m going to hide in Tierra del Fuego.

One difference between faith and science is that science allows with reasonable grace the questioning of theory. A physicist who doubts, say, the theory of general relativity will be expected to show good cause for his doubt. He won’t be dismissed in chorus as delusional and an enemy of truth.

By contrast, he who doubts the divinity of Christ, the prophethood of Mohammed, or the sanctity of natural selection will be savaged. It is the classic emotional reaction of the True Believer to whom dissent is not just wrong but intolerable. Which is unfortunate. If the faithful of evolution spent as much time examining their theory as they do defending it, they might prove to be right, or partly right, or discover all manner of interesting things heretofore unsuspected.

Among the articles of faith: Life evolved from the primeval soup (sheer conjecture; the existence of the soup is inferred from the theory); evolution occurred, as distinct from change; accounting for all characteristics of life (mere assertion); natural selection being the driving force (unestablished). Many of these points are logically separable. Since evolution serves the purposes of a religion, namely to explain human origin and destiny, they are invariably bundled.

A few questions:

It is asserted, though not demonstrated, that point mutations caused by, say, cosmic rays sometimes give an animal a slight advantage over others of its species, and that these advantages accumulate over countless generations and lead to major changes. Demonstrable fact, or plausible conjecture? I note that metaphysical plausibility often substitutes for evidence in matters evolutionary. The approach ignores hard questions, such as whether tiny advantages, if engendered at all, rise above the noise level, or what that level might be.

At any rate, the idea is that slight selective pressure (operational definition, please? Units?) over enough time produces major changes. The idea is appealingly plausible.

But, for example:

(1) A fair number of people are deathly allergic to bee stings, going into anaphylactic shock and dying. In any but a protected urban setting, children are virtually certain to be stung many times before reaching puberty. Assured death before reproduction would seem a robust variety of selective pressure.

Yet the allergic haven’t been eliminated from the population. Why is it that miniscule, unobserved mutations over vast stretches of time can produce major changes, while an extraordinarily powerful, observable selective pressure doesn’t? The same reasoning applies to a long list of genetic diseases that kill children before they reach adulthood. (Yes, I too can imagine plausible explanations. Plausibility isn’t evidence.)

(2) Homosexuality in males works strongly against reproduction. Why have the genetic traits predisposing to homosexuality not been eliminated long ago?

(3) Pain serves to warn an animal that it is being injured, or to make it favor, say, a wounded leg so that it can heal. Fair enough. But then why did we evolve the nerves that produce the agony of kidney stones – about which an animal can do absolutely nothing?

(4) There are at least two ways in which a species might change over time. One is the (postulated) accumulation over very long periods of mutations. Maybe.

The other is the concentration of existing traits by selective breeding, which is nothing but deliberate natural selection. The latter is demonstrable, and can happen within a few generations. If a breed of dog has weak hips, for example, the defect can be rectified by interbreeding those with better hips until good hips become the norm. About this there is no doubt. If natural selection occurs as advertised, this is where we would expect to see it.

Now, the genes exist for the brains of a Gauss or Newton, the phenomenal vision of Ted Williams, the physical prowess of Cassius Clay. Presumably (a tricky word) in a pre-civilized world, strong and intelligent people with superbly acute (for humans) senses would be more likely to survive and spread their genes, leading to a race of supermen. Is this what we observe?

Here we come to an interesting question: Do the superior pass along their genes more reliably than the inferior? In primitive tribal societies do we observe that the brighter have more children than the not so bright?

Do the most fit men breed with the most fit women, or with the most sexually attractive? As a matter of daily experience, a man will go every time for the sleek, pretty, and coquettish over the big, strong, bright, and ugly. I mention this to evolutionists and they make intellectual pretzels trying to prove that the attractive and the fit are one and the same. Well, they aren’t.

(5) If intelligence promotes survival, why did it appear so late? If it doesn’t promote survival, why did it appear at all?

(6) People have a wretched sense of smell and mediocre hearing. Why? The pat explanation is that people evolved in open territory, where sight is more important than the other senses. People walked erect, keeping their eyes well above the ground so that they could see farther. As noses became smaller, there was less room for the olfactory apparatus.

Is much of this not palpable nonsense? Horses have eyes at about the same altitude as people, yet have acute senses of smell. Anywhere but in perfectly open territory, a sense of smell is obviously important in detecting predators, as it is at night, when many things hunt. Excessively small nasal apparatus? Cats and rats have little room for olfactory equipment yet have acute senses of smell. Do sensitive ears take up more space than sorry ones?

(7) Without weapons, humans would appear to be easy prey for almost anything. A persistent forty-pound dog would be a challenge for a single man. A pack of hyenas would have no trouble killing him. Any big cat would need about ten seconds.

People are weak. I once had a semi-domesticated monkey of perhaps thirty pounds jump on me in Bali because it wanted a banana I was eating. I was a husky 180 and lifted weights. I tried to push the thing off of me, and instantly realized I couldn’t. The little beast was ferociously strong. I gave it the banana.

A man cannot outrun a toy poodle, cannot climb well (and anyway there aren’t trees in open territory), cannot swim naturally, has teeth useless as weapons, no claws, and poor musculature. (Why the latter? Strength isn’t of value in survival?) He can neither smell nor hear an approaching big cat (say) and, unless armed, couldn’t do anything about it anyway. Hiding isn’t a choice: People are noisy, their children uncontrollably so. When unwashed, humans reek. Our young are extraordinarily helpless for long years.

Were we already packing heat when we swung down from the trees?

(8) So much of evolution contradicts other parts. Sparrows evolved drab and brown so that predators won’t see them. Cockatoos and guacamayas are gaudy as casinos in Las Vegas so they can find each other and mate. But…but….

The answers to these questions either lapse into a convoluted search for plausibility or else boil down to the idea that since guacamayas are as they are, their coloration must have adaptive value. That is, it is the duty of the evidence to fit the theory, rather than of the theory to fit the evidence.

This is science?

March 3, 2004

Fred Reed [send him mail] is author of Nekkid in Austin: Drop Your Inner Child Down a Well.

Copyright © 2004 Fred Reed
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed27.html
 
My Life After Darwin
by John R Morgan, MD

Like most people, I never really bought the idea that life just spontaneously developed out of nowhere, and then humans came from fish or whatever.

It just didn’t make sense.

A man named William Dembski with a PhD in mathematics from the University of Chicago and a PhD in philosophy from the University of Illinois has developed one good explanation why I always felt this way.

Let’s say that you go to see the carving of Confederate heroes on Stone Mountain right outside of Atlanta. Even though you didn’t actually see anyone perform the carving, you can infer that a designer made the images. Now if you go to the back of the mountain and see various amorphous shapes (although they are statistically as improbable as the carving), you assume that they were randomly formed by erosion.

I know what you are thinking. This is basic common sense. Unfortunately, however, we live in a time where common sense must be justified; hence, Dembski is creating mathematical models to test the validity of inferring design from something that is improbable and specific. He hopes to prove that life falls into the category of intelligent design.

I laud his efforts but in a way it is a sad commentary on our society.

Another man, Berkley law professor Phillip Johnson, has criticized the intellectual leaps of faith necessary to accept evolution as a life-creating force (leaps that I was never convinced to take). Johnson argues that Darwinism has ceased to be a scientific theory and is now a tautology that conveniently explains everything in nature. Although Darwin himself operated within the context of the scientific method by giving examples of empirical observations that would refute his hypothesis, modern-day evolutionists entertain no such claims. Their position is derived from a presupposed metaphysical belief that God cannot exist.

As Johnson points out, in 1859 when Darwin wrote The Origin of Species (actually entitled The Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection; or, the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life), the fossil record was relatively incomplete. Darwin predicted that further examination of fossils would demonstrate slow gradual change in living organisms. Paleontologists have since found the abrupt appearance of new organisms followed by long periods of static existence before abrupt distinction.

The pattern of life as portrayed by the fossil record prompted Nobel Prize-winning scientist, Francis Crick (he co-discovered DNA), to suggest that space aliens must have visited earth at different times bringing new species. Even the guy who discovered DNA has doubts about evolution!

(Crick is actually an interesting fellow. He signed the "Resolution in Scientific Freedom" with 49 other scientists noting that left-wing institutions are censuring and punishing some scientists for politically incorrect research.)

In Darwin’s time it was also believed that cells were made of simple vitalistic goo that contained life. Molecular biology has since revealed that even the most primitive organisms contain amazingly complex, interdependent parts. Micheal Behe, a professor of biological sciences at Lehigh University, has adduced the concept of irreducible complexity that challenges the logic of natural selection driving the creation of complicated mechanisms with multiple independent parts. (How can a sophisticated structure like a wing develop piecemeal if its only functions in its completed form?)

My personal intellectual journey with Darwinism began at the University of Georgia as an undergraduate. I majored in microbiology (graduating 1st in my class of roughly 5,000 students in 1991) and did non-human genetic cloning research. I was overwhelmed with the diversity of life and the power of genetics. In fact, I came to understand that genes really matter. At the same time, I didn’t buy the weak little theory of survival of the fittest creating life.

I saw intraspecies change like bacterial anti-biotic resistance (microevolution) but I needed missing-link evidence (macroevolution). No one could give it to me.

I sincerely resented my professors conflating my skepticism in Darwinism with irrational anti-intellectualism. I loved science and truly respected the power of DNA. I just didn’t think they had proven how life was created.

I began reading everything I could get my hands on about evolution. I put aside my biology textbooks that presented evolution as a universally accepted law and started devouring the primary writings of the modern-day evolution experts. It was at this point that I realized that millions of students were being taught bad science for religious and political reasons.

I also learned that a potentially internecine civil war was raging within the Darwinian Nation.

On one side were the strict constructionists led by Richard Dawkins of Oxford University in England. Dawkins was more like a religious zealot than a political ideologue. He had long since accepted the fundamental primacy of survival of the fittest, and was applying its logical corollaries to human behavior.

On the other side were left wing ideologues led primarily by the brilliant but ruthless Stephen Jay Gould. Gould, a self proclaimed Marxist, loved the metaphysical liberation and culturally transforming power of Darwinism. He despised, however, "the universal acid of natural selection … reducing human cultural change to the Darwinian algorithm."

Basically, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.

Remember, leftists like Gould require a worldview where human behavior is 100% culturally conditioned; and here was Dawkins stating that culture itself was an extension of human genes. (At this point I should note that Dawkins is not a right winger, and received the Humanist of the Year Award in 1996)

Gould viciously attacked the "ultra-Darwinists."

In a perfidious stab in the back to those committed to keeping "the divine foot out of the door" (to borrow from another left-wing ideologue, Richard C. Lewontin) Gould proclaimed, "Darwin is dead!" He went on to attack the inadequacy of natural selection to explain the complexity of life. He also cogently argued that the fossil evidence did not support slow gradual change.

He proposed a new theory of (macro)evolution that he called punctuated equilibrium. Basically, he suggested that (macro)evolution must have occurred in quick spurts not captured by the fossil record. In addition, he attempted to down play the importance of survival of the fittest. Using his talented literary skills, he painted the world of biological change as a non-threatening nebulous impression. He fashioned himself an "evolutionary pluralist."

Now what was a confused young student to do?

I knew Darwin had stated that any reliance on macro mutations (or saltations as he called them) would cause him to reject his theory of evolution because it is not plausible; and here was Gould asking me to accept (macro)evolution based on some unknown rapid genetic change, basically a macro mutation. (Phillip Johnson has argued that punctuated equilibrium is a euphemism for miracle)

I also didn’t trust Gould. His primary concern seemed to be maintaining the leftist moral code of life rather than the scientific understanding of life.

I also couldn’t buy Dawkin’s historical narrative of life. The power of Darwinism rested in its claim to a plausible mechanism (which Gould destroyed) and its claim to a process without intentionallity. Dawkins was writing about "selfish genes." How could the substrate of evolution (DNA) be selfish and at the same time be without intention?

In addition, I was learning about other mechanisms of genetic inheritance called genomic imprinting. Without going into detail, the evolutionists were touting this phenomenon as a genetic "battle of the sexes." Again, they were asking me to accept Darwinism because DNA changed without purpose while simultaneously rejoicing that female DNA held a grudge against male DNA (I hope to fully describe the inconsistencies in logic of genomic imprinting and natural selection in another setting).

Basically, I came to realize that Dawkins and Gould were not the sophisticated atheists they wanted to be. They actually had faith in a god – the DNA molecule. They seemed to believe that it was omnipotent. To Dawkins it was a selfish god. To Gould it was an egalitarian god.

Personally, I decided to pass on worshipping the double helix. No, sir, I decided to keep the Christian faith of my ancestors.

But maybe it wasn’t actually free will that brought me to my decision. Maybe it was determined by the genes God gave me.

February 17, 2000

John R. Morgan, MD, is a practicing physician in Atlanta.

Copyright © 2001 LewRockwell.com

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/morgan5.html
 
A Skeptic’s View of Natural Selection
by Ryan McMaken

It’s become somewhat de rigueur in recent election cycles to ask politicians about their beliefs regarding biological evolution. This was an issue again this year with several Republican candidates earning the condemnation of pundits over their views on the matter. The issue rears its head occasionally, mostly in the context of public schooling, but rarely is any actual discussion on the matter allowed. The question is only asked to make a political point, and never to discuss specifics.

Whether applied to political candidates or not, the immediate response in any case in which any person expresses some skepticism around evolution is to suggest or suspect that the skeptic is therefore some kind of young-Earth creationist who thinks the Earth was created in 6 days about 10,000 years ago.

This is a false dichotomy. Creationism is hardly the only alternative to devout and orthodox Darwinism, and evolution is not synonymous with Darwinism. Evolution is one thing, and Darwinian natural selection is another, but ever since the days of the Scopes Monkey Trial, creationism is the straw man repeatedly set up to illustrate the alleged foolishness of those who express even the slightest doubt about the infallibility of Darwin and natural selection. The favored strategy is to suggest that the choice is only between Darwinism on the one hand, and creationism on the other.

This approach is nonsense. Evolution as a general concept has been a well-accepted theory among the educated since the ancient Greeks. Saint Augustine in the 4th century rejected the notion that the scriptures should be used as a guide to natural history, and an acceptance of evolution was widespread in Europe well before Darwin ever came on the scene.

Darwin’s innovation was the theory of natural selection which is a specific mechanism used to explain evolution.

What’s interesting is that the most venomous condemnation of skeptics seem to come from those who know nothing about evolutionary science whatsoever. Those who have read anything about the field at all know that natural selection as an explanation of evolution, while generally accepted by most biologists, is nevertheless a theory that is critiqued and questioned in scholarly publications.

As with any scientific theory, natural selection needs to be evaluated based on how well it explains natural phenomena. It is a theory like general relativity or quantum theory. Sometimes it explains natural phenomena quite well and sometimes it does not.

The reason physicists search for a "unified theory" is because the theories of Einstein and the great physicists of the past have their shortcomings. Does one therefore embrace "superstition" if he notes that general relativity is "a theory" and that another theory might be shown to better explain the universe? I suspect not.

In the same way, natural selection is a theory that has hardly proven itself as infallible. As this article by W.E. Lonnig illustrates, problems with the theory have been pointed out for years by biologists and other physical scientists who have encountered scores of natural phenomena that natural selection cannot fully account for.

Obviously, the scientists found questioning natural selection in scholarly texts are not arguing for any kind of creationism. They are, however, pointing out that the empirical evidence is insufficient to prove that natural selection is an adequate theory to explain all aspects of evolution.

Although refereed journals are hardly the last word on scholarly matters, they are helpful in illustrating what is considered acceptable discourse among most scholars. This bibliography of peer-reviewed articles questioning the validity of natural selection well illustrates that natural selection is indeed "a theory," and that a defense of the theory as unassailable smacks more of dogmatic metaphysics than of a healthy and open mind regarding scientific theories.

If one accepts generally accepted notions of empirical analysis, a theory must be regularly analyzed for its ability to describe the phenomena that it is supposed to describe. If it is found wanting, then the theory obviously has its shortcomings and remains but a theory. The fact is that natural selection has, on more than one occasion, been found wanting. Does this prove it is a useless theory? Not necessarily. But it does prove that it is not an immutable fact of life, and we would be right to harbor doubts about it.

The idea that science, if left to the scientists, would proceed unmolested by ideology and politics is unserious in the extreme. Scientists, physical and otherwise, all function within a little world probably best explained by the philosopher Paul Feyerabend in which scientific "progress" is not a matter of rational acceptance of a better theory over a worse theory, but is really a reflection of the ideologies of those who decide what is "scientific" and what is not.

Anyone who has spent any time in academia at all knows full well that the ideological and economic concerns of the gatekeepers dictate what is acceptable research at least as much as the quality of the research itself.

Beyond labeling everything they disagree with as superstition or religious extremism, the pundits who vilify critics of natural selection as creationists or religious nuts merely illustrate their own dogmatism about theories to which they have ascribed a devotion of religious proportions.

When it comes to Darwin, they would do well to rely a little less on faith, and a little more on reason.

January 10, 2008

Ryan McMaken [send him mail] teaches political science in Colorado.
Copyright © 2008 LewRockwell.com

http://www.lewrockwell.com/mcmaken/mcmaken125.html
 
Geeze. What a dishonest chickenshit duck and dodge? BTW that kind of crap is exactly what I have come to routinely expect from the pathetic evolutionism "cult" faithful true believers.

Always a very sure sign of a BULLSHIT pseudo-science "cult" crapola and a con job.

Hell, I can get more honest answers from astrolgers, psychics, and voodoo witch doctors, than from the "brainwashed" programmed evolutionism sheeple bots.

"By their BULL SHIT non-answers, ye shall know them."

You seem to be talking to yourself.
 
If you do not mind I would like to comment on this article

Evolution, Creationism, and Intelligent Design
by Charley Reese

I am an agnostic when it comes to explaining the origin of life. I don't believe yet in evolution, creationism or intelligent design. I can see flaws in all three. I just simply don't know and frankly don't think it matters whether we know or not.

Fair enough.

My main conflict with the evolutionists is that they wish to assert their theory as fact

We challenge IDers for example to show how their theory fits the observable facts better, and we ask that you provide more than just blind faith as a support for your argument. Latest example was related to vestigial organs. Theocrat simply gave up.

Interesting how the sentence before went along the lines of it doesn't matter if we know which one is right and the next is that there is a personal conflict with one theory.

and to employ government power to ban discussion of creationism

FWIW If I was a politician I would never ban discussion of creationism.

and intelligent design on the grounds that they are unscientific or, worse from their point of view, religious. I am against banning any idea, theory, speculation or body of guesses. Human history shows us to be far too error-prone to go around eliminating dissent by majority vote of one of the more ignorant classes in our society, namely politicians.

See above. By the way not all politicians are ignorant.
We all know one that certainly isn't.

Science has been itching to replace religion in Western culture for some time.

Science does not have emotions. It is an abstract concept.

You can see for yourself how science assumes the characteristics of religion. There is the priesthood (scientists, or at least those who call themselves scientists) and laity, which is the rest of us.

This can be said for many things eg. parents and children.
It is a fallacious argument.

Theory becomes dogma. Dissenters are persecuted. The high priests of science want the government not only to fund them, but to enforce their dogmas with the power of the law.

Maybe in China or some place really authoritative.

I believe in the separation of church and state. I also believe in the separation of science and state. In fact, I believe in the separation of practically all aspects of life from the state, which should basically tote the mail and guard the coast.

That is fair enough.

Although separation of science and state is not necessarily a beneficial process.

Just what is a state without religion or science or any aspect of life?

We, as mortals with short life spans, would not even be concerned about the origins of life, except the evolutionists wish to use their theory to destroy religion, and religious people want to use their theory to defend religion.

FWIW I believe in evolution and have no problems with people who believe in religion. If that is what they want to believe in.

True science means simply the search for truth, but a search conducted with an open mind and tolerance for dissent.

Fair enough.

There is nothing wrong with a person believing that a dinosaur evolved into a canary, but there is also nothing wrong with someone believing that God created the first man and woman.

What about a blue/green blob on planet Yttrip who creates rain when he empties his bladder? Is that ok?

I've never seen any physical evidence to support either belief, and one is no more improbable than the other.

I would have to strongly disagree with you there on both counts.

The only fact is that some beliefs have to be accepted on the basis of faith, and that goes for evolution as well as creationism.

Not entirely correct. The theory of evolution explains what is actually observed. If there is any faith component it is certainly less than that of creationism.

The trouble is that both science and religion provide a person with a worldview, and unconsciously the person begins to evaluate everything he or she sees or hears or thinks up in accordance with the worldview. I see no reason to include any discussion of evolution or creationism in secondary schools. There is a large volume of facts biology students need to learn without wasting their time on theories that have no practical value. It's like teaching molecular physics to students studying auto mechanics.

Evolution Theory does have practical value in that the concept is useful to people.
Just a very brief search revealed:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/oso/23435/2000/00000001/00000001/art00003
http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Algorithms-Theory-Practice-Programming/dp/0195099710

There is always more to learn than there is time to learn it, so we should be more practical in designing our school curricula. Not every student needs to read Shakespeare or learn calculus. I've had no occasion to solve a quadratic equation since I left high school. Students should be taught only what will be useful to them. Survey courses – giving them a taste of what is on the large menu of learning – are useful. Practical courses, such as personal finance or typing, are useful. Teaching all children a second language would be extremely useful, as would be music and drawing.

We should try to keep ideological and political disputes out of the public schools. We have to recognize that fanatics and ideologues will try to inject their materials into the public schools, and we should guard against that. I truly despise people who try to use children in adult conflicts. We should also guard against the state imposing its views on the students. The best way to do that is to abolish public education, a great idea whose time I hope will come one day.

In the meantime, just remember that facts are scarcer than theories, speculation, assumptions and guesses.

May 5, 2008

Charley Reese [send him mail] has been a journalist for 49 years.
© 2008 by King Features Syndicate, Inc.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reese/reese452.html

Lots of blurb about a schooling wish list
 
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Well, only watch out that the separation of science and state doesn't become a separation of fact and state.
 
I would like to comment on this also

Thinking in Darwinian Lockstep

by Fred Reed

Oh help. The religious orthodoxy that impedes discussion of biological evolution continues with its accustomed dreadful tenacity. I’m going to hide in Tierra del Fuego.

One difference between faith and science is that science allows with reasonable grace the questioning of theory. A physicist who doubts, say, the theory of general relativity will be expected to show good cause for his doubt. He won’t be dismissed in chorus as delusional and an enemy of truth.

By contrast, he who doubts the divinity of Christ, the prophethood of Mohammed, or the sanctity of natural selection will be savaged. It is the classic emotional reaction of the True Believer to whom dissent is not just wrong but intolerable. Which is unfortunate. If the faithful of evolution spent as much time examining their theory as they do defending it, they might prove to be right, or partly right, or discover all manner of interesting things heretofore unsuspected.

Among the articles of faith: Life evolved from the primeval soup (sheer conjecture; the existence of the soup is inferred from the theory);

ID/Creationism is an improvement how exactly?

Magical being did it?

evolution occurred, as distinct from change; accounting for all characteristics of life (mere assertion); natural selection being the driving force (unestablished). Many of these points are logically separable. Since evolution serves the purposes of a religion, namely to explain human origin and destiny, they are invariably bundled.

Evolution is a scientific theory and that is all it is.

A few questions:

By all means

It is asserted, though not demonstrated, that point mutations caused by, say, cosmic rays sometimes give an animal a slight advantage over others of its species, and that these advantages accumulate over countless generations and lead to major changes. Demonstrable fact, or plausible conjecture? I note that metaphysical plausibility often substitutes for evidence in matters evolutionary. The approach ignores hard questions, such as whether tiny advantages, if engendered at all, rise above the noise level, or what that level might be.

Well to be meaningful they would have to be above 'noise' whatever that means.

At any rate, the idea is that slight selective pressure (operational definition, please? Units?) over enough time produces major changes.

Survival Unit is measured in Life/Death/Reproduction/Lack of it.

The idea is appealingly plausible.

Indeed.

But, for example:

The core of your argument. FINALLY.

(1) A fair number of people are deathly allergic to bee stings, going into anaphylactic shock and dying. In any but a protected urban setting, children are virtually certain to be stung many times before reaching puberty. Assured death before reproduction would seem a robust variety of selective pressure.

Yes it would seem to be the case.

Yet the allergic haven’t been eliminated from the population. Why is it that miniscule, unobserved mutations over vast stretches of time can produce major changes, while an extraordinarily powerful, observable selective pressure doesn’t?

Who says it didn't?

What is the percentage of those who are deadly allergic to bee stings?

What might have the percentage been a few thousand years before and allowing for variation in bee numbers/toxicity?

Moreover, where exactly in evolution does it state, all life forms at present time are perfected?

Don't forget evolution is an ongoing process that literally takes millions of years.

Here is a refresher on what evolution is referring to:
(From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution)
"In biology, evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. The genes that are passed on to an organism's offspring produce the inherited traits that are the basis of evolution. Mutations in genes can produce new or altered traits in individuals, resulting in the appearance of heritable differences between organisms, but new traits also come from the transfer of genes between populations, as in migration, or between species, in horizontal gene transfer. In species that reproduce sexually, new combinations of genes are produced by genetic recombination, which can increase the variation in traits between organisms. Evolution occurs when these heritable differences become more common or rare in a population."

As you can see from the above, apart from passed on DNA we have mutations that occur spontaneously in DNA, potentially leading to individuals who have physical survival shortcomings and this by definition has nothing to do with failure of evolution as such.

Evolution would alter percentages of various traits over very long periods of time.

It cannot necessarily completely eliminate undesirable characteristics and I for one never claimed it can do that.

In fact, the presence of vestigial organs, as supporting evidence for evolution is in itself a demonstration that evolution is ongoing and is not perfect.
(These same organs are a thorn in ID theory, Theocrat never could explain in the context of ID theory all of the ones I brought up before him).

Remember we are talking about evolution, not intelligent (ie. perfect and final) design.

The same reasoning applies to a long list of genetic diseases that kill children before they reach adulthood. (Yes, I too can imagine plausible explanations. Plausibility isn’t evidence.)

See above.

(2) Homosexuality in males works strongly against reproduction. Why have the genetic traits predisposing to homosexuality not been eliminated long ago?

Who knows how much genetics as opposed to environment really has to do with it? Even if it does, see above.

(3) Pain serves to warn an animal that it is being injured, or to make it favor, say, a wounded leg so that it can heal. Fair enough. But then why did we evolve the nerves that produce the agony of kidney stones – about which an animal can do absolutely nothing?

The nerves in the area are useful in urination.

Also, the pain aspect of it, may not matter much or at all in terms of survival or reproduction, thus the nerves were not diminished or eliminated.

(4) There are at least two ways in which a species might change over time. One is the (postulated) accumulation over very long periods of mutations. Maybe.

The other is the concentration of existing traits by selective breeding, which is nothing but deliberate natural selection. The latter is demonstrable, and can happen within a few generations. If a breed of dog has weak hips, for example, the defect can be rectified by interbreeding those with better hips until good hips become the norm. About this there is no doubt. If natural selection occurs as advertised, this is where we would expect to see it.

Now, the genes exist for the brains of a Gauss or Newton, the phenomenal vision of Ted Williams, the physical prowess of Cassius Clay. Presumably (a tricky word) in a pre-civilized world, strong and intelligent people with superbly acute (for humans) senses would be more likely to survive and spread their genes, leading to a race of supermen. Is this what we observe?

Well as time went on, average level of intelligence improved.

That is why technology levels advanced when they did. Earlier peoples/humanoids were not capable of it.

Otherwise we would be colonising other galaxies by now.

Certainly early humanoids would not be able to do advanced scientific research even if they managed to read and write our language.

I am of course referring to the ones in here:
http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

There are plenty of fossils to back this up, this isn't make belief in magical beings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils

Here we come to an interesting question: Do the superior pass along their genes more reliably than the inferior? In primitive tribal societies do we observe that the brighter have more children than the not so bright?

See above.

Do the most fit men breed with the most fit women, or with the most sexually attractive? As a matter of daily experience, a man will go every time for the sleek, pretty, and coquettish over the big, strong, bright, and ugly. I mention this to evolutionists and they make intellectual pretzels trying to prove that the attractive and the fit are one and the same. Well, they aren’t.

Attractive people are more likely to be fit, than unattractive people. That is why we are instinctually drawn to attractive people.

(5) If intelligence promotes survival, why did it appear so late? If it doesn’t promote survival, why did it appear at all?

It improved very slowly and gradually. It does promote survival.
However intelligent people may not only be improving their own survival.

How many inventions that improve your survival were made by other intelligent people?

Life Jackets. Seat Belts. Guns for home defense etc.

(6) People have a wretched sense of smell and mediocre hearing. Why? The pat explanation is that people evolved in open territory, where sight is more important than the other senses. People walked erect, keeping their eyes well above the ground so that they could see farther. As noses became smaller, there was less room for the olfactory apparatus.

Yep.

Is much of this not palpable nonsense? Horses have eyes at about the same altitude as people, yet have acute senses of smell.

Maybe for horses, a sense of smell is more vital to survival than it is for humans.

Anywhere but in perfectly open territory, a sense of smell is obviously important in detecting predators, as it is at night, when many things hunt. Excessively small nasal apparatus? Cats and rats have little room for olfactory equipment yet have acute senses of smell. Do sensitive ears take up more space than sorry ones?

See above.

(7) Without weapons, humans would appear to be easy prey for almost anything. A persistent forty-pound dog would be a challenge for a single man. A pack of hyenas would have no trouble killing him. Any big cat would need about ten seconds.

Human brain is far more complex.

This is why we are able to communicate the way we are doing right now.

That is why back then, humans would adapt to dangerous conditions, because
their brain allows changes of behaviour based on situation (rather than just pure instinct in every instance).

Besides all of the above, are you implying at all that under IDer/Creationist theories there was no danger to humans in our history from wild animals or
that humans had weapons from the start?

People are weak. I once had a semi-domesticated monkey of perhaps thirty pounds jump on me in Bali because it wanted a banana I was eating. I was a husky 180 and lifted weights. I tried to push the thing off of me, and instantly realized I couldn’t. The little beast was ferociously strong. I gave it the banana.

A man cannot outrun a toy poodle, cannot climb well (and anyway there aren’t trees in open territory), cannot swim naturally, has teeth useless as weapons, no claws, and poor musculature. (Why the latter? Strength isn’t of value in survival?) He can neither smell nor hear an approaching big cat (say) and, unless armed, couldn’t do anything about it anyway. Hiding isn’t a choice: People are noisy, their children uncontrollably so. When unwashed, humans reek. Our young are extraordinarily helpless for long years.

Yet we are still here.

Were we already packing heat when we swung down from the trees?

We had whatever weapons and/or behaviours we needed to survive (we are still around are we not) appropriate for the historic period.

I am fully accepting of the fact that from time to time large groups of humans would have got slaughtered by wild animals,
however those that remained learned from that. Self-preservation instinct is strong.

From your earlier discussion relating to diseases, I am fully accepting that from time to time large groups died due to diseases,
however some of those that remained were immune/less vulnerable/missed being infected.

(8) So much of evolution contradicts other parts. Sparrows evolved drab and brown so that predators won’t see them. Cockatoos and guacamayas are gaudy as casinos in Las Vegas so they can find each other and mate. But…but….

I don't think any of what you brought before us warrants attention as something that contradicts the theory of evolution. These items are easily explainable and I have given you those explanations.

The answers to these questions either lapse into a convoluted search for plausibility or else boil down to the idea that since guacamayas are as they are, their coloration must have adaptive value.

That is correct.

That is, it is the duty of the evidence to fit the theory, rather than of the theory to fit the evidence.

No. Theory fits the evidence. Where does it not?
Your word play does not change this.

This is science?

Precisely.

By the way how exactly does saying a magical being did everything scientific?

March 3, 2004

Fred Reed [send him mail] is author of Nekkid in Austin: Drop Your Inner Child Down a Well.
Copyright © 2004 Fred Reed
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed27.html

Yeh, let's drop our 'inner child' down a well.

LOL.
 
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If you do not mind I would like to comment on this article

Fair enough.

We challenge IDers for example to show how their theory fits the observable facts better, and we ask that you provide more than just blind faith as a support for your argument. Latest example was related to vestigial organs. Theocrat simply gave up.

Interesting how the sentence before went along the lines of it doesn't matter if we know which one is right and the next is that there is a personal conflict with one theory.

FWIW If I was a politician I would never ban discussion of creationism.

See above. By the way not all politicians are ignorant.
We all know one that certainly isn't.

Science does not have emotions. It is an abstract concept.

This can be said for many things eg. parents and children.
It is a fallacious argument.

Maybe in China or some place really authoritative.

That is fair enough.

FWIW I believe in evolution and have no problems with people who believe in religion. If that is what they want to believe in.

Fair enough.

What about a blue/green blob on planet Yttrip who creates rain when he empties his bladder? Is that ok?

I would have to strongly disagree with you there on both counts.

Not entirely correct. The theory of evolution explains what is actually observed. If there is any faith component it is certainly less than that of creationism.



Evolution Theory does have practical value in that the concept is useful to people.
Just a very brief search revealed:
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/oso/23435/2000/00000001/00000001/art00003
http://www.amazon.com/Evolutionary-Algorithms-Theory-Practice-Programming/dp/0195099710

Lots of blurb about a schooling wish list

Evolution, fix your "science". Beating up on the skeptics and critics, does absolutely nothing constructive to advance your cause. Some better science might really help though.

Evolution has become the "Political Correctness of 'science' ". And just coincidentally, ( I'm sure :rolleyes: ) from the very same source as the whole lame "PC' concept. Go figure!

Thanks for your comments. :)
 
Why this understatement of humans' ability to confront animals?

If you meet a wolf, all you need is a solid branch. If there are rocks in your area, you can throw them. A 10 pounds rock is a pretty dangerous thing to get hit by, you know? Then you have torches. Animals don't like torches. People are producing flatbows for some time, they are producing spear shafts and spear tips for some time.

Sometimes a big cat kills a monkey. It doesn't happen often though, mostly because monkeys also throw stuff and cats don't like it.

Confronting a group of brick sized stone throwing humans is something that not even an elephant would be keen on.
 
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