What do you think of Land Value Tax (LVT)

Post the quote, or admit you are a lying sack of $#!+.
"That is correct. The lecture said nothing whatever about feudalism being the cause of the European Miracle. Nothing."

ROTFL!!! You have been caught in another lie.
My lie was to post a link. And then I made another lie: claiming that the lecture talked about feudalism favorably as being on of the factors in the European Miracle. And then I lied by posting some time ranges where he talked about feudalism and its virtues and its role in the Miracle. And then I lied by not wanting to transcribe these sections for you.

I am happy to continue quibbling about this point, because I want as many people to listen to this lecture as possible.

http://mises.org/media/1263/The-European-Miracle

Once again, if you want to disagree with Ralph Raico, fine. I would say you really have absolutely no choice but to disagree with Ralph Raico -- vehemently. Unless you want to actually change your mind on something in light of new facts. Which would be unprecedented and very surprising.

So disagree, by all means. Tell us all about where the lecture is not true at all, which has got to be a lot of it -- the vast majority of it. Tell us how Raico is a demon from the fiery pits of Mordor. But this claim that Raico does not agree with me is just bizarre. It's kooky. I don't understand why you'd even make the claim. It gives you no advantage in the debate. And it's clearly contrary to reality. Raico agrees with my historical summary of feudalism. My summary was nothing but a summary of his summary. Admit that you were wrong, please. I'm sure you will, because you're classy that way. Thank you! :)
 
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The biggest problem I have with LVT is the same problem I have with property taxes in general: assuming the principle of LVT itself was unanimously accepted and adopted as valid by virtually everyone (setting aside the wills of tyrants, tyrannous oligarchies and tyrannous majorities), it takes an extremely presumptuous mindset to even come up with any formula that makes any sense whatsoever
What is so hard to understand about, "repay what you take?"
- not to mention that in both cases (LVT and property tax) there is a presumption regarding the very purpose of land (as it relates to individual survival only) - that land should only be occupied if its inhabitants continue to produce for others not living on that land.
That is something you made up. It is no part of LVT.
Life itself can be said to be a "rental" - for absolutely all life forms - in that you must constantly exert energy to convert matter and energy just to live. Failure to do this will result in death (forced eviction from the body), which means that survival itself is already a naturally imposed "rental tax" - on all life.
This is an attempt to change the subject by misusing words.
Those born into gilded cages of whatever size notwithstanding (i.e., the basic means for survival is inherited), add to that a completely artificial tax, one that declares, in essence, that you must not only convert the matter and energy required for your own survival, but even more of the same for the survival of unnamed others as 'restitution' for what they might have been deprived of.
They are unquestionably deprived of it, as value requires that at least two people be willing to pay for it.
My first thought, beyond characterizing this as a classic parasitic relationship (mutually beneficial or otherwise),
The landowner is the parasite, as already proved.
is, "Why?"
It is the only way to obtain liberty, justice and prosperity for all.
It has even been proposed that there exists a "natural liberty right" to occupy the same space and time as another person.
Not by anyone here.
 
Aggregating all natural resources as the common heritage of all mankind tears down all boundaries for natural resources.
Meaningless garbage.
It makes them all an enormous collective blob,
More meaningless garbage.
free to be used by anyone and everyone,
That is self-evidently and indisputably their natural condition.
and the utter unworkability of such a system
It worked for millions of years.
necessitates a single predatory
The landowner is the predator who kills millions of innocent people EVERY YEAR.
monopolistic institution called the State be called upon to wisely preside over the management and distribution of all natural resources as Gods upon Mount Olympus.
Stupid lie. There is no way to allocate exclusive use of natural resources but by initiating force. Democratic control of that force is the only way to prevent it from being exercised as tyranny.
Or to wantonly burn, destroy, and dole it out to cronies.
Stupid lie.
Whichever works. Whichever it feels like. Thou shalt not question it. Cause it's, like, the State, yo! The State PWNS you all, peons, so get down on yo' knees and thank it that you alive today at all.
Meaningless "meeza hatesa gubmint" shrieking and gibbering.
Of course, Roy, that's not fair of me.
Nor honest nor rational.
The State would never pillage and burn. It's proved itself over the centuries to be a totally awesome and responsible system of governance.
Oh, no doubt it's the most horrible thing ever -- except for the alternative.
You've said it. It must be true. And if any heathen are expressing doubt, you invoke the word "Somalia" to them and that clinches it, as far as I'm concerned.
There are other historical examples. Somalia is just a current textbook example.
I think we can all agree that complete confidence is in order as the correct attitude toward the State. The managers of the State will assume their Mt. Olympus role, they will rule in wisdom and equity, just as they have always done, just as they will always do. Any doubting heathens should be burned at the stake.
Stupid, "meeza hatesa gubmint" gibbering.
 
Not surprisingly, you have chosen a spew of stupid, meaningless, dishonest garbage as your "thread winner."

Despicable.
Not surprisingly, you claim it to be "a spew of stupid, meaningless, dishonest garbage" when in fact it is not. ;) Feel free to continue trolling. You make me laugh. :D
 
"That is correct. The lecture said nothing whatever about feudalism being the cause of the European Miracle. Nothing."
Thank you for posting the conclusive proof that you are a lying sack of $#!+ who lied about what his source said, and then lied about what I said to cover up his lie about what his source said.

In post #754 you lied:

"Well you also claimed he never even used the word "feudalism"."

That was a flat-out LIE. YOU LIED.

Always lying is what makes someone a lying sack of $#!+.

All apologists for landowner privilege lie. That is a natural law of the universe. There has never been an exception to that law, and there never will be.

My lie was to post a link.
Your lie was to claim that it supported your lie that feudalism created a European economic miracle of wealth production and prosperity.
And then I made another lie: claiming that the lecture talked about feudalism favorably as being on of the factors in the European Miracle.
Correct, as you have proved you cannot support that claim.
And then I lied by posting some time ranges where he talked about feudalism and its virtues and its role in the Miracle.
So now you admit that feudalism was merely the historical precursor to modern times, and not the cause. Good.
And then I lied by not wanting to transcribe these sections for you.
You lied because you claimed he said things he did not say.
Once again, if you want to disagree with Ralph Raico, fine. I would say you really have absolutely no choice but to disagree with Ralph Raico -- vehemently.
Raico didn't claim feudalism caused unprecedented prosperity and wealth creation. You did.
Unless you want to actually change your mind on something in light of new facts. Which would be unprecedented and very surprising.
Look who's talking!
But this claim that Raico does not agree with me is just bizarre. It's kooky.
See above. You deliberately lied about what I said, and I have proved it. You also lied about what Raico said, and you continue to do so.
I don't understand why you'd even make the claim. It gives you no advantage in the debate. And it's clearly contrary to reality. Raico agrees with my historical summary of feudalism.
Lie.
My summary was nothing but a summary of his summary.
Lie.
 
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Originally posted by Roy L:
It is the landowner who is the drain on the economy. He is a pure parasite. Government, by contrast, is a producer that provides services and infrastructure for which people are willing to pay -- willing to pay even landowners, who do not provide those services and infrastructure.

It is landowners who are parasites and rob society.

LoL
 
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You haven't homesteaded it.
Of course he has. He homesteaded it according to his definition, just as you (falsely) claim people obtained rightful current titles to land by someone homesteading it in the past according to your definition.
There's a lot of factors involved: existing occupants and users,
Please identify ANY private land title that you can prove is based on homesteading where there were no existing occupants or users. ANY land title, ANYWHERE in the world.

Thought not.
sheer size of the claim,
Most current land titles are based on absurdly large claims that could not possibly have been homesteaded in any meaningful sense.
lack of any significant labor or improvement applied to the atmosphere by yourself,
Most current land titles are based on claims with similarly tenuous contributions of labor or improvements.
much less enough to justify such a large claim, and the lack of even any serious attempt to demarcate your claim (put up some equivalent of fence posts, perhaps "no trespassing" balloons, make an official notice to a respected land-claiming board, etc.).
??? "An official notice to a respected land-claiming board"??? No! No!!1! It's the spawn of Satan, the State! Run for your lives!
You would have to homestead it.
And you get to define what counts as homesteading...? How... convenient.
Conventions arise. People respect each other by honoring norms and boundaries established by the conventions.
Like slavery?
 
Thank you for posting the conclusive proof that you are a lying sack of $#!+ who lied about what his source said, and then lied about what I said to cover up his lie about what his source said.
Ha, ha! :^D And you don't even explain why it is you're saying that I lied. Ahh, well: experiment successful.

The fact is, I misremembered. I made an honest mistake. I admit that I was wrong. I take full responsibility for my actions. My guilt does not even depend on what the definition of "is" is. I was even good enough to post the quote that my misremembrance came from, which was sort of close, just to see what you would say. And you were kind enough to oblige with a berserker rant ala Charlie Sheen-drill sergeant crossbreed. I shall go to my LVT altar and say 10 Hail Henrys immediately. Do you have the power to forgive me, Your Holiness?

Raico didn't claim feudalism caused unprecedented prosperity and wealth creation. You did.
Has anyone else listened to this lecture who can confirm I'm not going crazy or been dropped into an alternate Universe? Raico claimed the exact same thing I did, to wit: the decentralization and balances on power achieved under Western feudalism were a major factor (there were other factors, too), probably the major factor, which made the West what it became. Any difference whatsoever between what I said and what he said would be due to imperfection in my paraphrasing.

Listen and see for yourself: http://mises.org/media/1263/The-European-Miracle

Anyway, enough of that.
 
Who determines the tax? Yeah, right, the market. Who determines what the market determined?
Professionals hired for their skill at doing so.
Who determined to even determine the tax that way?
All the good, wise and honest people.
Who collects the tax? To whom is it paid?
Government.
Oh yeah, I guess this is all just a free market capitalist extravaganza.
It is not capitalist, as capitalism is inherently incompatible with a free market. Capitalism requires private ownership of land, which is inherently a welfare subsidy to landowners. There is no place for subsidies in a free market.
No State involved in a land value tax at all. Except for... the whole entire thing.
The state is involved. No one denies it. It's just that adults do not wet themselves whenever anyone mentions government or the state.
Resources to which the collective has claim, that is, which are collectively owned, are a disaster.
Natural resources are not collectively owned under LVT, that is just a lie that you repeat no matter how many times it is proved a lie. The rights to life and liberty -- i.e., to use what nature provided to sustain one's life -- are individual rights, not collective ones. But only a collective institution -- government -- can possibly secure and reconcile those rights once fixed improvements to land become significant. There is no other possible way.
So, Roy (and maybe you?) say we need to have the the state to step in with rules and legislation and an L.V.T. and everything is solved.
More accurately, without it nothing can be solved.
Why not instead allow it to all be divvied up, as humans tend to naturally do when they're intelligent?
Because whenever humans are intelligent, they understand that the rights of generations unborn cannot rightly be divvied up among those currently alive.
What is the advantage to keeping it, theoretically, collectively owned, and have the State, in practical reality, have ultimate ownership (they collect the rent and have veto power)?
It permits achievement of liberty, justice, and thus a general prosperity.
You know, Richard Cantillon started his book looking at this question of "what would happen if the whole country was owned by one landlord?" as well as a lot of other stuff about land. He founded modern economics. We should bring Cantillon into the discussion. He had some good things to say.
Well, he WAS a highly successful economic parasite who made a large fortune through insider connections, land privilege and money issuance, without making any productive contribution.
 
Is it still your position that roads are a public good? Or are you willing to admit you were wrong when you wrote that?
Roads have many characteristics of public goods, and certainly it is not possible for private interests to invest efficient amounts in them. Which might be why they never have, in the whole history of the world.
 
The assessment changes as improvements are made in the vicinity, but not as they are made on that land, because it is the UNIMPROVED value that is being assessed.
Now I'm thoroughly confused. Suppose there's a large area of unused, unimproved wilderness, far from any town. The scenery all around is nice. For exclusive use of two adjacent plots of land in the wilderness, each one square mile in size, I bid $1/year each. There are no other bids, and the government accepts my offer ($2/year is better than nothing). Next year, or whenever the next value reassessment is done, there are still no improvements anywhere in the wilderness, and the LVT remains at $1/year for each of my plots. Then, I build a town on plot #1. I rent out all of the buildings, and people come and pay a lot to rent them because there's now a town there with other nice people living there and everyday services are available, the scenery is nice, there are good nearby wilderness recreation opportunities, and the helicopter taxi service to the nearest cities is affordable (so we can ignore the complications of roads for this situation). There are still no improvements anywhere on plot #2, or anywhere else in the wilderness.
What happens next year, or whenever the next value reassessment is done? Improvements have been made in the vicinity of plot #2, so you say the assessed value of plot #2 should change. The LVT on it should now be a lot more than $1/year. But you say that the assessment for a plot of land does not change as improvements are made on it, so the assessment for plot #1 doesn't change, and the LVT on it remains at $1/year.
This is irrational. Did I misunderstand your argument?
 
I just thought I'd point out my fascinating position (it's total lie, of course, but still fascinating) that when you transform matter in some way, you have "removed it from nature" as the Georgist contingent phrases it.
Because it's true.
Changing its location would be one transformation, one that passes muster under Roy L.'s Catechism. But changing it without moving its location, as for instance tamping down the earth for a parking lot, that is a transformation, too. The tamped earth is no longer in its original natural state. It took quite a bit of capital and knowledge and labor to get to a point where you're steamrolling over dirt.
Tamping soil, plowing furrows, etc. produces a thin layer of improvement on a base of undisturbed land.
Let's go further and say you make a traditional capital product, one that the LVT Pope would normally recognize as duly baptized into holy propertization. Like a chainsaw. But you make it without ever moving the resources from their original location.
That is self-evidently impossible. You have again merely proved that there is no rational objection to LVT, so you must always resort to dishonesty and absurdity. ALWAYS.
What would be an example where that would be actually possible? How about a statue carved in place right at the deposit of marble or whatever, such as, aha!: Mt. Rushmore or Crazy Horse?
There would be a severance tax on the value of the depleted resource, plus the LVT on the value of the location the statue occupies.
My guess is that the Papal verdict that will issue shall be that the lando---r (cursed be his name, cursed be his name) may own the statue itself forever and ever, although if his LVT is ever overdue, he will need to move it to some other location.
Or sell it to the more productive user who gets to use the site. Right.
If I have, indeed, correctly anticipated His Holiness's reasoning -- then it is appearing to turn out that the "land" which is being taxed under the One True Faith boils down to be locations on the Earth's surface. It is all about space, not about matter.
Wrong. Inevitably. It is about the whole physical universe other than people and the products of their labor. You are just trying to find ways to avoid knowing that fact.
You can own matter, any matter, so long as you shuffle it around. Just move it somehow. You're good to go then. Your title then has been blessed by the Pope and is true and faithful.
Objective fact, which you have to ignore.
But one can never, never, never own locations at the surface of the Earth. Those be sacred. They shall not be sullied by the profane hands of aspiring lando---rs. Their pride and loftiness shall be thrust down just as Lucifer's.
<yawn> Locations can't be removed from nature. Obviously. So whenever anyone initiates force to exclude others from one, he is inherently violating their rights to liberty. This is self-evident and indisputable. All your nonsense is just you trying to avoid knowing that fact.
 
Why do you think multi-year leases, such as a 5 year lease, would be necessary?
Investors are risk averse, so total revenue would be increased by providing some certainty of costs for limited times. Remember, one component of rent -- the economic advantage to the land user -- is security of tenure. Tenure secure enough to support long-term investment is more valuable than insecure tenure subject to unpredictable economic changes.
 
Depends what you mean by "authority."
One of the various definitions in the dictionary is that "authority" is synonymous with "power", but I reject that definition. Other definitions are closer to "right". For the sake of argument, let's say "authority" is synonymous with "right", in the sense of "individual human rights to life, liberty, and property in the fruits of one's labor" as you put it.
I presume you agree that a right is different from power; it's possible to have the right to something without the power of it, e.g. the right to liberty without the power of liberty because somebody kidnaps you, and it's possible to have the power of something without the right to it, e.g. the power to kidnap somebody without the right to do it.
Currently, a lot of people agree that you have the right to property in the fruits of your labor. But let's suppose that some charismatic communist leader convinces everybody in the world, except you, to join The Collective. You're the sole holdout. They don't tolerate holdouts, so they simply vote that you don't have the right to property in the fruits of your labor. Do you still have that right, even though you've lost the majority vote? If so, then why? The answer of the theists (including the author and other signers of the U.S. Declaration of Independence), of course, is "God said so" (with the next questions being how they know that, how they know that God even exists, etc). But as an atheist, you must have a different reason. "It's a self-evident fact" also doesn't work in this case, because it would be self-evident only to you; everybody else has joined The Collective. BTW please don't say that deep down, they know the truth, but they merely decided deliberately to lie about it; that may be true, but it doesn't answer the question. ;)
 
Well that's a lot of fine mumbo-jumbo,
Translation: facts of objective reality that prove you wrong.
but it is not what Matt was saying. It contradicts what Matt was saying. His point was that the resources which built and maintain the factory have already been taxed by the LVT, so taxing the factory qua factory would then be a double-taxation.
I don't recall Matt saying resources would be taxed except insofar as they yield unearned, publicly created rent to their owners, but if he did, he was wrong. If someone can build a factory with resources no one else wants enough to be willing to pay for access to, he can build it without paying any tax, and own and operate it without paying any tax.
The stuff that makes concrete is land.
No, what makes concrete is labor. There is no land in concrete any more than in a chainsaw.
That's what I meant.
No, you were obviously just lying. Again.
Well, it could.
No, it can't, because land value approaches zero as the rate approaches infinity and the tax amount approaches the market rent. Because of that fact, LVT CANNOT be made excessive. It can't be made to extract more from the landowner than he rightly owes for what he takes from society. The only way to make the land tax amount greater than the market rent is to stop taxing land value and tax by something else -- in which case the state risks forcing abandonment of the land and declining revenue.
The State can set it at whatever it wants. That's the great thing about being a State. Of course it would be irrational for the State to do that. The State does irrational things on occasion.
It's more than irrational: it's not LVT. So your "objection" to LVT is that it might not be LVT.

And you call the state irrational....
I could just say that owning the factory violates humanity's rights.
But you would be lying. But I repeat myself.
I could make up some bogus reasons why this is the case -- wealth redistributionists do this all the time. These reasons would be just as valid as your reasons that owning land violates others' rights: not at all.
No, that's plainly a lie, as already proved. It is self-evident and indisputable that others would be at liberty to use the land if the landowner did not initiate force against them. He therefore forcibly deprives them of liberty they would otherwise have. By contrast, they would not otherwise be at liberty to use the factory, because it was not already there. The owner or a previous owner had to create it. The landowner did not create the land, and neither did any previous owner. All your bull$#!+ cannot make that fact disappear.
True. I was saying that the land, by being rearranged -- e.g. tamped down -- has become non-land. It's been delandified.
Only the rearranged soil has been removed from nature, not the land under it.
The evidence is mounting that your definition of "land" is purely locational.
The evidence has long been conclusive that you have nothing to offer but lies, strawmen, name calling, lies, equivocations, fallacies, lies, absurdities and lies.
Smith was a moron. Smith was wrong about almost everything. To read anything more by Smith would be self-torture. The guy was a fruitcake.
LOL! So says the guy who has claimed, "natural resources are bequeathed to us by human labor and intelligence," "feudalism created an economic miracle of prosperity," "a chainsaw contains raw matter," "a million dollars a year doesn't make up for even an hour a week of compulsory labor," and too many other idiotic howlers to mention.

It is not Smith who was a moron, sunshine. It is not Smith who was wrong about almost everything. It is not Smith whom it would be self-torture to read even one more word by. It is not Smith who is a fruitcake.

It's you.
And, you proceed to prove it, such as you know how. There is a key difference in the bandit, the tax collector, and the land-owner.
No, there is not. They are all parasites. And you know it.
The landowner can be avoided by the merchants if they just buy up their own land and build a different road.
I.e., by shouldering a greater cost than the rent the bandit charges in his officially approved landowner incarnation. But that was always an option, even when he was a bandit. That is why he didn't take so much that they would be scared off. Remember? I explained that specifically. That is always the way with land rent and other forms of rent-seeking banditry: it is determined by the economic advantage the user obtains. So in fact the option of avoiding the landowner is only a theoretical one, just like the option of avoiding the bandit by taking a costlier route: it's not economically feasible. Contrary to your claim, the bandit will not pursue the caravans to a different route, because it's not worth it, any more than it is worth it for him as landowner to buy the land along another route the caravans won't take. He already adjusts his take so that the merchants keep using his route. That is how landowning and banditry work.
The bandit, by contrast, will just move to whatever road is being used.
There is no other road, because the competing routes are not worth taking. That is already known, because the bandit adjusts his take to make his route the most attractive, just like the landowner doesn't try to take more than the market rent, which is DEFINED BY the competing alternatives.
The tax collector will also just move, or maybe just make it illegal to travel by any road but that one.
The toll collector won't move because the caravans won't move. The toll is set at an amount low enough to keep them coming.
Only the landowner respects the property rights of the traveling merchants.
No, that's just a flat-out lie. He robs them of their property just as surely as the bandit does. It makes absolutely no difference to them that he has a piece of paper legally entitling him to take the loot (except that if they are gullible, brainwashed fools, they might actually imagine it does entitle him to take it).
He does not force them to pass through his land.
ROTFL!!!

Neither does the bandit, sunshine. Neither does the bandit. Just like the landowner, he simply appropriates the value government, the community and nature provide.
You have not even read all of them.
Yes, I have.
Yes. they. do.
No, they do not.
Yes. it. can.
No, it cannot.
Smith. was a. moron.
Speaking of morons (and economic ignorami), the Law of Rent was discovered by Ricardo, not Smith. And like Smith, Ricardo was orders of magnitude more intelligent and economically literate than you.
Society != the State.
But no one has a better claim to act on society's behalf:

"... to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men..."
Defensive force is OK. Aggressive force is not.
Initiating force to deprive people of their liberty is aggressive. That is exactly what the landowner does.
Force of any kind is only needed if someone like yourself is trying to aggress and take land which is not his.
It is the landowner who commits aggression, and takes land that is not his. Your cargo-cult chanting of incantations ("presenting an official claim to a recognized land office, blah, blah, blah...") certainly can't make it his.
Then defensive force should indeed be used to repel him/you.
Initiation of force to deprive people of the exercise of their rights to liberty is not defensive.
This is, of course, historically inaccurate.
It is very accurate. In fact, it is exactly what happened when the Articles of Confederation were replaced with the Constitution.
It is. But they don't have liberty to use everything in the Universe.
Everything nature provided, they most certainly do. What would stop them, other than a vicious, evil, greedy parasite like you initiating force against them?
So when I deprive them of that make-believe liberty, I'm still good; still on the up-and-up.
No, you are a despicable, evil, greedy, thieving, murdering, vicious parasite.
 
Now I'm thoroughly confused. Suppose there's a large area of unused, unimproved wilderness, far from any town. The scenery all around is nice. For exclusive use of two adjacent plots of land in the wilderness, each one square mile in size, I bid $1/year each. There are no other bids, and the government accepts my offer ($2/year is better than nothing). Next year, or whenever the next value reassessment is done, there are still no improvements anywhere in the wilderness, and the LVT remains at $1/year for each of my plots. Then, I build a town on plot #1. I rent out all of the buildings, and people come and pay a lot to rent them because there's now a town there with other nice people living there and everyday services are available, the scenery is nice, there are good nearby wilderness recreation opportunities, and the helicopter taxi service to the nearest cities is affordable (so we can ignore the complications of roads for this situation). There are still no improvements anywhere on plot #2, or anywhere else in the wilderness.
What happens next year, or whenever the next value reassessment is done? Improvements have been made in the vicinity of plot #2, so you say the assessed value of plot #2 should change. The LVT on it should now be a lot more than $1/year. But you say that the assessment for a plot of land does not change as improvements are made on it, so the assessment for plot #1 doesn't change, and the LVT on it remains at $1/year.
This is irrational.
Yes, building a town on one plot and nothing on an equivalent adjacent plot is irrational.
Did I misunderstand your argument?
No, that's correct.
 
For the sake of argument, let's say "authority" is synonymous with "right", in the sense of "individual human rights to life, liberty, and property in the fruits of one's labor" as you put it.
So you speak of moral authority. OK.
Currently, a lot of people agree that you have the right to property in the fruits of your labor. But let's suppose that some charismatic communist leader convinces everybody in the world, except you, to join The Collective. You're the sole holdout. They don't tolerate holdouts, so they simply vote that you don't have the right to property in the fruits of your labor. Do you still have that right, even though you've lost the majority vote? If so, then why?
Rights are of three types: legal rights, which are of no interest because they can be changed by fiat; practical rights, which are the rights one actually enjoys in society; and natural rights, which would be our practical rights in a society of wise and good people with a wise and good government. In your scenario, my legal and practical property rights would be gone, but my natural property right would remain.
But as an atheist, you must have a different reason. "It's a self-evident fact" also doesn't work in this case, because it would be self-evident only to you; everybody else has joined The Collective. BTW please don't say that deep down, they know the truth, but they merely decided deliberately to lie about it; that may be true, but it doesn't answer the question. ;)
It is not self-evident, but natural rights are indeed based on fact and logic, not popular opinion, legal opinion, divine revelation or the mode of production. Rights are in principle empirically discoverable: they are the constraints on individual action that foster the healthiest and most prosperous society -- i.e., the society that will out-compete all others in the arena of evolution.
 
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