What do you think of Land Value Tax (LVT)

My answer, which might surprise you:

[C]orporations are not "people", and do not have "rights", but privileges only.
I don't know why that would surprise me. It certainly didn't! It's just a restatement of what you said before, that these fictitious persons called corporations, which are invented by the state out of whole cloth and then given special privileges, that they don't have any rights (they are not, after all, actual persons).

But that actually doesn't answer my question, which is whether the arguably non-libertarian aspects of corporationhood -- limited liability and fictional personhood -- should be abolished. That would turn them into legitimate organizations, created by contractual arrangements among individuals, not by state fiat. Then those individuals would not be fair game for robbery any more, am I right?
 
I don't know why that would surprise me. It certainly didn't! It's just a restatement of what you said before, that these fictitious persons called corporations, which are invented by the state out of whole cloth and then given special privileges, that they don't have any rights (they are not, after all, actual persons).

No, I meant the part about capital gains, minimum wage, etc., but only as applied to corporations.

But that actually doesn't answer my question, which is whether the arguably non-libertarian aspects of corporationhood -- limited liability and fictional personhood -- should be abolished. That would turn them into legitimate organizations, created by contractual arrangements among individuals, not by state fiat. Then those individuals would not be fair game for robbery any more, am I right?

No, the other way around - all those things should remain in place, with a distinction that such entities, like corporations, exist only as a matter of privilege, not right, with an entirely separate set of laws (statutes, penal codes, etc.,) that apply ONLY to them. The Interstate Commerce clause is the ONLY way that all three branches of our government have been able to rope us into laws that never should have applied to free and natural persons in the first place - and it is all because of the conflation of the term "person". It's actually one of the reasons even the Constitutionality of the Fed has been adjudicated the way it has been in the past - because fiat money CAN apply to fictitious persons. The way they get around the Constitutionality is by making ALL OF US fictitious persons in the eyes of the law - all no longer subject to Constitutional and Common Law, but to Admiralty Law (statutes, penal codes, administrative tax court, etc.), much of which is administered by the Executive branch, NOT the judicial.

When a free and natural citizen challenges a particular statute, the judicial branch adjudicates this (or the executive under administrative law) and upholds the law itself, because it really can apply to "some persons". So the wrong challenge is issued, the wrong question is put before the court, because the question that should be before the court is not one of the law itself, but of jurisdiction. If you issue a jurisdictional challenge, stating that you are a free and natural person to whom a particular law does not apply, the courts can point to your implied consent of the law, and subjugation thereto, based on documents you have signed (driver license, business license, marriage license, birth certificate, etc.,) - all of which are interpreted as evidence of of your willingness to be place yourself under the jurisdiction of admiralty law, and not common law. In other words, you are, in the eyes of the law, the same as a corporation -- by default.

This is little different than early decisions that caused all deposits to be considered title transfers and not bailments - again, by default.

The solution, therefore, is one simple law, preferably a Constitutional Amendment, that draws a clear distinction between fictitious persons and free and natural citizens - and a presumption of free and natural status for ALL free and natural persons, absent an EXPLICIT waiver of rights under the law, with completely informed, and express, consent. One ramification of this: it would not be possible to issue any but a voluntary tax on individuals - because the entire tax code is "administered" by the Executive branch - with oversight by the judicial in the case of appeals.

There is much more to it than that, but as it is now, we are all treated as corporations - that is the default presumption which has been our Libertarian undoing for some time now. We were all sold into admiralty law without our knowledge or consent.
 
Mr. Douglas,

I have read through some of your posts on Mises.org, and I will just say that you are one of the most intelligent and respectable people I have ever heard propound these kinds of legal theories.

And believe me, I have heard many of them.

I've even fell in with this crowd: http://dev.republicoftheunitedstates.org/what-is-the-republic/history/ , because one of my pro-freedom friends was a part of it. So I'm now an official Grand Juror for the Republic, I guess, although after that first meeting I haven't got any further calls or e-mails from them; I think this is because I did not express, umm, total agreement with the leader's theory (held to by them all) that alien lizards are ruling the world and every President since Truman has been cloned, in a science fiction sense -- a full grown person with the same memories and personality as the original person pops out of the machine.

I am quite serious.

They were quite serious, as they explained all this to me at their Most High Grand Official Meeting of the Republic, at Perkins.

So anyway, I must admit that I am not as interested in these legalistic theories as I could be. Perhaps Congress really hasn't legally reconvened since Abraham Lincoln and so we're all living under martial law. Perhaps there's a secret Constitution "for" the united States as opposed to the one "OF" THE UNITED STATES. Perhaps there's a shadow United States where all the state names are capitalized. Perhaps if I could just get the judge to take down that darn gold-fringed flag, I'd be scot-free. Perhaps lizards really do rule the world. Perhaps my former neighbor is right about David Wynn Miller being able to solve all our legal problems and make us Sovereign Citizens. OK, actually, there's no perhaps about that last one; David Wynn Miller (oh dear, I should probably be capitalizing his name) is hilariously ludicris. More hilarious than Roy L. by about 10 times. But the rest of them, well let's just say all of them are a lot more plausible than David Wynn Miller.

Even the LVT is more plausible than that.
 
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LOL! So says the guy who has claimed, "natural resources are bequeathed to us by human labor and intelligence," "feudalism created an economic miracle of prosperity," "a chainsaw contains raw matter," "a million dollars a year doesn't make up for even an hour a week of compulsory labor," and too many other idiotic howlers to mention.
And here's the thing: I'm totally proud of all those stands! Perhaps I should briefly explain them again?

"natural resources are bequeathed to us by human labor and intelligence" -- Natural resources have to be discovered. Their usefulness has to be discovered. They have to be rearranged in order for that potential usefulness to become actual. Robinson Crusoe can take a bunch of vines and make a net to catch fish, but only if he knows about nets or can invent the concept himself, otherwise the vines are of no value. If he never took the time to look around and find the vines, likewise then they are of no value. They might as well not be there. Without human intelligence and labor, nature isn't a resource at all, it's a deadly threat.

"feudalism created an economic miracle of prosperity" -- Yes, the decentralization of power of all the tiny little polities and all the tiny little fiefdoms within those polities, all within an overarching religious and cultural mileu, created opportunities for liberty to flourish. The small size of the polities and religious, language, and cultural similarities throughout Western Europe enabled easy exit to other polities, which was a check on excessive power. Also, all three levels -- fiefdoms, polities, and Church -- were in tension and so acted as checks on each other, and most importantly on the power of the polities.

"a chainsaw contains raw matter" -- This is so self-evident, I have never really known what to say about your rejection of this idea. Everything material is made of matter. A chainsaw is material. A chainsaw thus contains matter. One can see, touch, disassemble, lick, and otherwise experience a chainsaw sensorily in order to confirm this theory for oneself. All this matter was once "raw". It all came from nature, or the Universe. That is the only source we have for matter. If you come up with another source, let me know. Thus a chainsaw, and all material goods, are built from what the economists call "land". Land, labor, capital -- you combine them together and make goods. Every economic good requires at least some land as a component. The case would seem to be pretty air tight. One takes raw matter, and makes a chainsaw. Raw matter is what composes the chainsaw.

Now where we differed is that you said the whole chainsaw has been removed from nature. None of it is in its natural state anymore. But that's not true. It all just depends on how far from its natural state you must make it to qualify for your Holy delandifying absolution. The atoms are still intact. None of them have been split. They're still in their natural state. Their location has been changed. But is that really enough change? What if I were to place a large heater on the ground somewhere that would heat up the Earth for miles around. Dirt would be melting in the immediate viscinity. Matter even hundreds of miles deep would be heated a few degrees. Physics tells us that the temperature will rise for the matter even all the way down to the earth's core. By changing the matter's nature in this way, have I removed it from nature and made it a product of my labor? I doubt that Roy L. would say so.

More and more evidence is mounting that the only thing that is permanently land in his world view is location. All you have to do to get to own something is shuffle it around a bit. Move that huge boulder 10 feet to the right and BAM! it's mine. So this leads to the conclusion that evil viscious parasites should be able to own absolutely anything and everything in the Universe, except for those types of property that are by their nature very difficult to move like parking lots and farms. So Georgism boils down to really nothing but size-ism: prejudice in favor of those who want to own small, mobile property, and against those who want to own large, immobile property.

"a million dollars a year doesn't make up for even an hour a week of compulsory labor" -- Of the four, this is the stand I am the most proud of. You know, earlier Peewee Herman taught us about the principle of "I know you are but what am I?", although not as comprehensively and tenaciously as Roy L. has, I will admit that. But he also taught another important principle, that of: "The bike's not for sale, Francis". Some things are simply not for sale. At any price. No matter what. My liberty is one of those things. Injustice cannot be made to be just by merely giving payouts or bribes to the victims. Your misosophy says that rape can be made morally acceptable by merely agreeing to pay the victims a million dollars each time you do it. No problem there. Just roam the streets raping whoever you want and as long as you compensate them, justice has been served and you're good to go. My philosophy says otherwise. I guess you just have to choose which one seems better to you. As for me, I will stand with absolute moral principles. You can stand for the rich serial rapist. To each his own. :)
 
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Helmuth,

The appreciation is mutual. I think every theory and ideological cake that is baked on our planet will be iced, decorated, and even co-opted at times by its decidedly nuttier fringes. Billions of lenses out there to see through. The irony of so many differing fantasy versions of reality, I think, is that reality itself is often no less fantastic, and no less perceived as the nuttiest of fringes (given enough time or differing perspective).

Our little "Honest Abe" Lincoln, for example, was a war mongering, currency debauching, nationalist ideologue, and it is no wonder that he was not a proponent of so-called "states rights", given his lack of a principled stance on individual rights, including slavery (as he stated so plainly). That unprincipled scoundrel plundered with self-impunity the basic fundamental principles that others held sacred, and upon which the Republic was founded - and based solely on his own marginal utility for each, which could be traded, sold or abolished in his impatient willfulness and determination to "keep the union together at all costs". That plunged this country into a bloody civil war that never, ever needed to be fought, and for which not a single shot ever needed to be fired. What he did really did end America as originally designed. All that was left was for the vacuum of plundered principles to be filled by self-interest, as the nation's corpse was taken over and reanimated from there. It is also no wonder to me that Obama holds him up as a role model, including his very Linconesque vision of "keep the union together at all costs", which he takes to unprecedented levels.

Reality changes while the primary labels we cling to remain the same. From the United States lens, a liberal is now a leftist, Lincoln was a savior of the union and a freer of slaves, a debauched currency is still called "a dollar"; debt is money; an intensely capitalist, oligarchy-led China is still called "communist", while a very collectivist, socialized, corporatized, protectionist, equally oligarchy-controlled U.S., with all its statutory layers of fear-based micro-control of individual lives is still called "the land of the free and the home of the brave". It's all in the labeling. Our Tommy Boys learned that they really can take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed. That's what we wanted, after all, and they have time.

Anton Chekhov once wrote, "When a lot of remedies are suggested for a disease, that means it can't be cured." So if you want something, anything, to be unfixable/incurable - whether it be a computer virus, or an entire economy, dismiss the root cause of its dysfunction as normal, and focus instead on complex and ill-defined terms of multiple symptoms and infinite remedies. For example, define inflation as "rising costs" rather than dilution of the money supply, and the root cause will be just one consideration. We don't even have a single word for "watering down the money supply" so "inflation" is conflated in a way that gets us all nicely pointing fingers and scapegoating in all directions, as we muddle about and fight over the causes for "rising costs".

While many look at concepts like society, government, economy, etc., as the all-important proxy behemoths, just itching to be programmed at the macro-design and macro-control level, most of us are not on that level, and never will be. And what does it matter? We are not a Constitutional Congress, let alone economic power-brokers, convening to decide how things ought to be, and looking for ratification. Even what I wrote in my last post is little more than a case of "that was then, this is now". If that. I fully accept that. I don't point it out to imply that we must reverse course and attempt to return to what might have been. That is gone forever, and exists only as a lesson for a very different present, and possibly different future.

It doesn't matter whether what we say is true or not, historically accurate or not. We may end up changing nothing at all, save a better grounding and a clearer vision for ourselves, as we attempt to see things as they actually are. In the end, that may only affect our individual choices, and that brings me to why we are here in the first place (or at least why I am here).

I believe in the power of seeds, life, individual cells and their scalability. The seed of a single vine can dislodge a stone roof over time, but who cares, when that is not the seed's objective. For it to lift a roof it had to live, and that's the most important part. The core of all government is seeded by individuals, and thus, the most fundamental of ALL government is within each of us. I hold that individual government is far more powerful, more sacred even, than any large scale collective-controlling machination that was ever devised by humans, who are constantly trying to out-clever themselves, and even their own stated principles, as they out-maneuver the "other". They all look silly to me. Clownish - even the ones that succeed. So before I ask what I can do for my country, or what use it is to me, or even what I think it ought to be, I first want to understand what it actually is now...without a single sentiment used to describe it, and with every a priori assumption fodder for examination.

In the words of Gandhi (in the movie) "I want to document, coldly, rationally, what is being done here."

From a strategy standpoint, we can only grow or change from where we really are - not where we think we are, or should have been, or ought to be by now. Just...core reality. Get clear bearings. What is it now.

I want to take that further. I don't want to waste time debating and battling the usual leaves and branches of things that are described with circular references, while the basic premises go unchallenged. That is, for me, a waste of time. I want to distill it all down to the seeds. Even Austrian economics, for all its relative simplicity or complexity, is something I value as but one operating system (regardless of different versions). Our current economy is now running on an entirely different operating system, with a different set of governing assumptions. Nothing more or less. What do I care about the accuracy or intricacy of millions of iterations of formulae that so-called positivists use to "describe" what happens to an operating system in a computer and hardware that must be fueled by a debauched currency before it could even work! At the very least, describe it accurately, and in positive terms that are clear, concise, and irrefutable. From there alone we can have a clear view from which to navigate - if but our own individual ships, if that is all we can do.
 
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Suppose a man and woman colonize Mars. They're the first people there. They claim joint ownership of the entire planet. They carve giant "No trespassing" signs in the dirt at the poles and several places around the equator, visible from space, to stake their claim.
OK, so this is different from "homesteading" only in that actual homesteaders are never actually the first people there. The absence of any validity to the ownership claim is the same.

<long description elided>
This seems to solve all of the moral and practical problems of geoism (including the problem of needing a bureaucrat to officially assess land values) while retaining its benefits, though the system is significantly different from what Roy proposes.
It does not retain the benefits of full land rent recovery because the landowner gets to pocket some publicly created value, while the improver is deprived of the full right to own his improvements.
My question to both of you is: at this point, what's evil or impractical about this system?
It deprives people of their liberty to go to Mars and use its resources without making just compensation for the loss. Offering them the option of "citizenship" doesn't make up for the privileged position the landowners (starting with the first couple) enjoy. The system privileges landowners to pocket both publicly created land rent and some privately created improvement value.
Whose natural rights are violated?
Everyone's.
To Roy, how is your system more moral or practical?
It's more moral in securing the equality of human rights, and more practical in stimulating more productive use of land.
 
I saw a lot of passionate assertions, and the rationale for those assertions, but I must have missed the part where "guilt" and "theft" were actually proved.
How is the landowner different from the bandit? What does he contribute in return for the loot he exacts from the caravans?
One thing I have noticed, Roy, in reading through your responses throughout this entire thread, is that you are answering in earnest, quite honestly - albeit using your own set of definitions for nearly every word, every concept, every term employed.
My definitions are standard and supported by dictionaries; however, I do use some technical terms, and my understanding of the concepts -- especially rights -- is deeper than you are probably accustomed to. This may help you understand our relative positions:

http://www.henrygeorge.org/catsup.htm

I see the cat. You do not. The cat, moreover, is objectively there. IMO you, Helmuth, and the others here who try to rationalize landowner privilege are probably able to see it, but have simply decided not to, as the preservation of your false and evil beliefs is more important to you than liberty, justice, or the truth.
Here is but one example:

"...whenever humans are intelligent, they understand that the rights of generations unborn cannot rightly be divvied up among those currently alive."

From that I can get a rough idea of your definition of the word intelligent (and its implied opposite by contrast, based on a specific understanding, as outlined by you).
I don't understand how that is an example of using idiosyncratic definitions. What part of that sentence are you having trouble understanding? It seems plain enough to me. It is a direct refutation of Helmuth's false and evil claim that private property in land is somehow required by human intelligence -- a claim he already knew was refuted by the example of Hong Kong.
I can only understand and interpret your definitions, the intending meanings of which seem to be unique to you (i.e., "free market", "good", "honest", "wise", "theft", etc.,) only by weighing them as circular references within the contexts in which you have used them. Likewise, when you "refute" what someone else is saying, you are weighing their words, not by their definitions or intended meanings, but by those same definitions which seem to be unique to you.
Please give examples. I find it is the apologists for landowner privilege who use words in ways that are blatantly incorrect -- i.e., who just tell flat-out lies -- such as claiming that land is a product of labor, or that there is raw matter in a chainsaw, or that Crusoe pointing a gun at Friday and giving him the choice of lifelong slavery or getting back in the water is somehow a voluntary, free market transaction with no initiation of force involved.
As such, your responses seem more like edicts than arguments; not "normative" (stating the way you believe things should/ought to be), but positive assertions, as you argue from your own premises, as if your understanding of things is the way things actually are (and they really are, albeit in your own mind, as you have decided and declared), all deviations from which are the abnormalities, the lies, etc.,.
In fact, you are correct. I do identify the facts of objective physical reality and their inescapable logical implications. In most cases, these facts are self-evident and indisputable (e.g., land is not a product of human labor). Anyone who denies such facts is self-evidently just lying. In other cases, they may be established facts of economics (taxing a factor in fixed supply creates no distortion and imposes no excess burden) or history (feudalism was a system characterized by oppression, poverty, ignorance, injustice, stagnation, treachery and warfare, not liberty, prosperity and progress) that require a certain level of education to know and a minimal level of honesty not to deny.
I don't know how we "get there from here", or how any of these discussions can have any meaning whatsoever, without at least a common definition of terms - without circular references of any kind.
It is the apologists for privilege and injustice who rely on question begging and circular reasoning, as you have seen with Helmuth.
 
My definitions are standard and supported by dictionaries; however, I do use some technical terms, and my understanding of the concepts -- especially rights -- is deeper than you are probably accustomed to.

Well, I never claimed to be deep, and I'm certainly open to widening my understanding. Here's a montage of snippets from your last post, just to illustrate my lack of understanding of your definitions:

"....the preservation of your false and evil beliefs..."

Sounds pretty subjective to me.

"...more important to you than liberty, justice, or the truth..."

All undefined, of course, based on your private definition of each term.

"...Helmuth's false and evil claim..."

Once again, the use of "evil" - entirely subjective

"...flat-out lies -- such as claiming that [improvements to] land is a product of labor, or that there is raw matter in a chainsaw..."

Note that I added "[improvements to]" just to clarify your paraphrase to reflect more accurately the essence of what was actually stated. I did not see a single reference to a claim that raw land by itself was a product of anyone's labor. I don't think you were "lying" - unless, of course, you knew that is what they meant, but deliberately left that part out. Land itself is not a product of labor. However, improvements to land certainly can be, and is, a product of capital and/or labor. And raw matter is not in a chainsaw? I did not understand that. A chainsaw is matter, so that leaves me not knowing your definition of "raw", let alone understanding your point.

"...I do identify the facts of objective physical reality and their inescapable logical implications..."

I don't know about your identification of the facts of physical reality, but "their inescapable logical implications" are products of your conclusions and your beliefs. They are not inescapable unless someone is locked into your mind and your reasoning with no way out. I don't see that as being the case.

"...these facts are self-evident and indisputable (e.g., [improvement of] land is not a product of human labor)."

Again, did you mean to leave out "improvement of", or can you give me a direct quote of someone who claims that raw, unimproved land is a product of human labor?

"...established facts of economics (taxing a factor in fixed supply creates no distortion and imposes no excess burden)..."

That seems self-contradictory to me. Forget the "creates no distortion" part, which is unclear, and may be technically correct if you mean only "can be accounted for". It is the "imposes no excess burden" claim that I found bizarre, unless "excess" is the operative word (in which case it is entirely subjective, based on your definition of "excess").

However, regardless whether a tax is justified or not, any tax imposes a "burden"...unless, once again, you are employing some special definition of the word burden, like "how you personally feel about the weight of the tax", or how you have justified that tax based on how it is offset in your own mind by something else.

"...apologists for privilege and injustice..."

Two extremely subjective terms, your definitions of which are entirely unclear - but which appear to be synonymous in the context in which you use them.
 
Here's a montage of snippets from your last post, just to illustrate my lack of understanding of your definitions:

"....the preservation of your false and evil beliefs..."

Sounds pretty subjective to me.
No. Falsity is an objective fact, and evil is a matter of understanding, not opinion: deliberate violation of others' rights without just compensation. An evil belief is one that encourages evil action by those who hold it.
"...more important to you than liberty, justice, or the truth..."

All undefined, of course, based on your private definition of each term.
Nonsense. I am using the dictionary definitions.
"...Helmuth's false and evil claim..."

Once again, the use of "evil" - entirely subjective
No, it is not. There is disagreement about it, as about many things, but it is in principle a discoverable empirical fact. Does it involve deliberate violation of others' rights without just compensation? Then it is evil.
"...flat-out lies -- such as claiming that [improvements to] land is a product of labor, or that there is raw matter in a chainsaw..."

Note that I added "[improvements to]" just to clarify your paraphrase to reflect more accurately the essence of what was actually stated.
No, that is just a flat-out lie on your part. You are LYING. You KNOW there is nothing controversial about improvements being products of labor, and you know I did not say that is a lie. You KNOW this. Of course you do. You simply decided deliberately to lie about it. The essence of what was stated was that land is a product of labor, and Helmuth has repeated that claim, and stated that he is proud of it, in post #805. It was a stupid lie when he said it, it is still a stupid lie when he rationalizes it, and it is a stupid lie to claim its meaning is other than what it plainly is.

You will note that on a number of occasions, I have identified the fact that all apologists for landowner privilege lie. That is a natural law of the universe. There has never been an exception to that law, and there never will be. You have decided to rationalize landowner privilege, and you consequently now have no choice but to lie. You just lied about what I wrote, and you lied about what Helmuth wrote.
I did not see a single reference to a claim that raw land by itself was a product of anyone's labor.
See post #805.
I don't think you were "lying" -
Of course you don't. You know very well I was telling the truth, just as Helmuth does.
unless, of course, you knew that is what they meant, but deliberately left that part out.
I know that when Helmuth said, "natural resources" he meant "natural resources," and not "improvements," "chainsaws," or "dry martinis."
Land itself is not a product of labor.
Congratulations on finding the courage not to lie about that. There may be hope for you yet.
However, improvements to land certainly can be, and is, a product of capital and/or labor.
Improvements are always products of labor, which may or may not employ capital.
And raw matter is not in a chainsaw? I did not understand that. A chainsaw is matter, so that leaves me not knowing your definition of "raw", let alone understanding your point.
"Raw" means what it says: natural and unprocessed.
"...I do identify the facts of objective physical reality and their inescapable logical implications..."

I don't know about your identification of the facts of physical reality, but "their inescapable logical implications" are products of your conclusions and your beliefs.
No, they are products of factual premises and logical analysis.
They are not inescapable unless someone is locked into your mind and your reasoning with no way out. I don't see that as being the case.
They are inescapable to anyone who respects objective fact and logical reasoning.
"...these facts are self-evident and indisputable (e.g., [improvement of] land is not a product of human labor)."

Again, did you mean to leave out "improvement of", or can you give me a direct quote of someone who claims that raw, unimproved land is a product of human labor?
See post #805. And it is certainly not the first time Helmuth has made such blatantly false claims.
"...established facts of economics (taxing a factor in fixed supply creates no distortion and imposes no excess burden)..."

That seems self-contradictory to me.
It is a fact of economics that has been known for 200 years, and is not disputed by any competent economist. It is merely a fact that is not known to you because you do not know any economics.
Forget the "creates no distortion" part, which is unclear, and may be technically correct if you mean only "can be accounted for".
It means that people's production and consumption decisions are unaffected.
It is the "imposes no excess burden" claim that I found bizarre, unless "excess" is the operative word (in which case it is entirely subjective, based on your definition of "excess").
The "excess burden" of a tax is the amount of its cost to the economy in excess of the amount of net revenue it raises.
However, regardless whether a tax is justified or not, any tax imposes a "burden"...unless, once again, you are employing some special definition of the word burden, like "how you personally feel about the weight of the tax", or how you have justified that tax based on how it is offset in your own mind by something else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_burden_of_taxation

From the wikipedia article:

"In fact almost any tax measure will distort the economy from the path or process that would have prevailed in its absence (land value taxes are a notable exception)."
"...apologists for privilege and injustice..."

Two extremely subjective terms, your definitions of which are entirely unclear - but which appear to be synonymous in the context in which you use them.
No. Privilege (from the Latin for "private law") is a legal entitlement to benefit from the uncompensated violation of others' rights. Injustice is rewards not commensurate with contributions made and penalties not commensurate with deprivations imposed on others.
 
It deprives people of their liberty to go to Mars and use its resources without making just compensation for the loss. Offering them the option of "citizenship" doesn't make up for the privileged position the landowners (starting with the first couple) enjoy.
I don't understand why you say this. Under your system, people would be free to go to Mars and use its resources, but they would have to compensate other Martians to the extent that their use of the resources deprives those other Martians, and this compensation would be specifically in the form of LVT paid to a government which uses the tax money to provide public services, and the tax would be negligible (or maybe even zero) for land which there's no competition to use. My system does exactly the same thing! The major difference is that I offer secure tenure only for 50 years, while you offer secure tenure for eternity.

And what are the privileges which the landowners enjoy in my system? Remember, all the land is jointly owned by all of the citizens (which are all the people who have signed the founding contract, which is effectively the Constitution of the Government of Mars), administration of the land is done exclusively by the government, and everybody is free to be a citizen (and thus a joint owner of all the land) in exchange for simply acknowledging the legitimacy of the government and its authority over the land. For all practical purposes, the land is only "owned" in my system in the same sense in which it's "owned" by the government in your system. A "privileged" class which consists of everybody isn't a problem, and the only people who aren't in that class are the ones who voluntarily exclude themselves by denying the legitimacy of the government.

The system privileges landowners to pocket both publicly created land rent
If by "landowners" you mean the planetary landlord, remember that everybody, except those who deny the legitimacy of the government, is a member of the class which constitutes that landlord. All of the land rent is spent on government services, the same as in your system, with any surplus rent distributed as a citizen's dividend, which you've said is a reasonable thing to do with the surplus. If by "landowners" you mean people who have rented parcels of land for 50-year terms from the planetary landlord and then subleased it, the same pocketing of some of the rent would occur in your system too; the only difference is that you prefer to officially revalue the land somewhat more frequently than every 50 years.

and some privately created improvement value.
You already agree that justice is satisfactorily served by compensating people for their infringed rights, such as providing government services to people in exchange for excluding them from use of certain parcels of land. In my system, people who improve land are compensated for the loss of private ownership of those improvements by the reduced pre-improvement rental value of the land, and they themselves decide what the just compensation is, by bidding less for the land than they would if their future improvements would remain perpetually their own. How is that unfair?
If that still doesn't satisfy you, then think of it another way: during the auction, people aren't just bidding money; they're bidding money _plus improvements_. Money is paid to the government every year, and improvements are paid to the government every 50 years.

My system has another benefit: by auctioning rental privilege and offering secure tenure only for 50 years, my system more effectively accomplishes the geoist goal of preventing perpetual concentration of control over land than does the traditional geoist mechanism of eternal security. After all, under the traditional geoist system, if the government is taxing a landlord no more than what he can recover by renting his land out to the highest bidder, then he can still acquire and keep an arbitrarily large amount of land without losing money on the enterprise, so if many other people are foolish enough to sell to him, then he and his descendants can hold the land forever, and discriminate against particular members of the landless class at their whim, or discriminate against particular uses of the land, by rejecting their high bids to rent parcels of land, and pay only a relatively minor monetary price (the difference between the high and next-highest bids) for the privilege to sporadically discriminate like this. In contrast, under my system, such a landowning dynasty would be economically unfeasible, because the dynasty would have to defend each parcel of land in an auction every 50 years, which makes it impossible to break even by renting it for the purpose of subleasing it, because the high bidder by definition pays more than anybody else was willing to pay; if nobody else was willing to pay that much to rent directly from the planetary landlord, then nobody will pay that much to sublease the land either.
Ironically, eternal security of tenure in the last vestige of the concept of land ownership, and the traditional geoist system fails to abolish it.

It's more moral in securing the equality of human rights,
What do you say would be the right way to establish a legitimate government for the Martian colony?

and more practical in stimulating more productive use of land.
Do you say this just because my system officially revalues each parcel of land only once every 50 years (which requires bidders to predict value that far in advance), whereas your system revalues it more frequently, or is there some other reason?
 
Congratulations on finding the courage not to lie about that. There may be hope for you yet.

Well, at least there's hope for someone, that should be encouraging. And with that one brass ring tenuously plucked, I'll step off this merry-go-round of ad hominem pronouncements which are not disputed by anyone that you deem intelligent, let alone any economist that you deem competent.
 
I have a question primarily for helmuth_hubener, but also for Roy L.

Suppose a man and woman colonize Mars. They're the first people there. They claim joint ownership of the entire planet....
To Helmuth, what substantial improvement (in morality or practicality) would be made by the landlord selling land rather than leasing it?
First of all, they have not, to my mind, established a claim over the entire planet just by carving "No Trespassing" signs. I think it would be very difficult to established this claim. Of course, in Roy L.'s system, all I have to do is nudge Mars into a little different orbit with a well-placed nuclear blast on nearby asteroid which causes it to collide with Mars. Whee! It's all mine!

Under my system, the ownership is ultimately established by the claim, but there are all sorts of mitigating factors to what kind of claim will be recognized. For practical purposes, it is really not any different than the traditional Lockean system wherein applying labor to natural resources makes them products of your labor and thus your legitimate property, with a few small exceptions in edge cases, which you understand if you've read the rest of my posts in this thread.

But let's just add the information to your scenario that the man and woman were trillionaires and they terraformed the entire planet while everyone else, other than their employees, was back on Earth twiddling their thumbs. Then I think we could say they have legitimately established ownership over the whole planet. And what a breathtaking achievement! This couple should be hailed through all the ages! They gave us again what God gave us at first -- they have created a second Earth.

And then they just keep the whole thing and refuse to sell it, only leasing it. So your question for me is whether I see any moral or practical problem with that.

Morally, no. They made a planet. What an outlandish thing to do. They are certainly justified in getting an outlandish reward. They could even refuse to lease it and just be Adam and Eve, keeping the whole thing for themselves and their progeny. Or they could blow it up, ala Francisco d'Anconia. It's theirs. They can do whatever they want with it.

Practically, there's a big problem. One single firm controlling the whole economy faces the same problem as a socialist government: the calculation problem discovered by Mises. The larger a firm becomes, the more they run up against the calculation problem. Let's say you're a grocery store with vertical integration. You own all your supply chain -- your own trucking system, your own food packaging and processing plants, everything, going all the way back to the farms, which you also own. How do you know how much to pay your farmers? You kind of have to peek over the fence at your competitors, or else long-term you might (nay, you will) get way off, just as the Soviets had to peek over the fence at market economies to know what prices to set all their stuff at.

So if one firm owns all the resources and space of an entire planet, this is a big calculation problem. They can look over the fence at Earth, but Earth is very, very different and it doesn't help them a whole lot. Everyone's bidding at the auctions, yes, but there's only one supply. This firm has total horizontal integration over a fundamental part of the economy.

Peter Klein has done good work in this area of the theory of the firm.

http://blog.mises.org/12799/on-chapter-1-of-kleins-new-book/
 
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Well, at least there's hope for someone, that should be encouraging. And with that one brass ring tenuously plucked, I'll step off this merry-go-round of ad hominem pronouncements which are not disputed by anyone that you deem intelligent, let alone any economist that you deem competent.
Sorry! At least he moderated himself somewhat with you, not being sure, I guess, initially, whether you were a totally reprehensible sub-human lie generator. Now that that's been established.... :D

I was not trying to use ad hominem on you, by the way, I hope you don't think that. I just see some of these legalistic things as kind of pointless and detached from reality. I do agree with you on Lincoln, and I can see where your proposed Constitutional amendment would be a good thing. I would just repeal the whole commerce clause and replace it with "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of production and trade, and by that we mean they shall not make any law respecting production and trade at all." I still recommend you read the Wikipedia page on David Wynn Miller for a good hardy laugh.
 
I was not trying to use ad hominem on you, by the way, I hope you don't think that.

Nope, never even crossed my mind. Aside from the fact that you are just a pawn for the Bilderburgers (and don't lie, evil minion, or attempt to deny it), you have been logical, concise, inquisitive, respectful, considerate, polite, and not the slightest bit condescending. All the stuff of good discourse and mutual inquiry into ideas. I enjoy reading your posts, and following your ideas. I have already learned from you, and look forward to whatever else you have to say.
 
Well, at least there's hope for someone, that should be encouraging. And with that one brass ring tenuously plucked, I'll step off this merry-go-round of ad hominem pronouncements which are not disputed by anyone that you deem intelligent, let alone any economist that you deem competent.
You have been comprehensively and conclusively refuted, you know it, and you have no answers. Simple.

As I hypothesized, you are able to see the cat, but refuse to do so. Simple.

You CHOOSE not to know facts that you have already realized prove your beliefs are false and evil.

You and Helmuth may now return to your mutual snog-fest.
 
At least he moderated himself somewhat with you, not being sure, I guess, initially, whether you were a totally reprehensible sub-human lie generator. Now that that's been established.... :D
If you will recall, Helmuth, I extended you the same courtesy until you started lying about what I had plainly written -- which didn't take long. Your first response to me (post #148) was to claim I was a looter when I had already proved it is landowners who are the looters. The remainder of that post was a spew of sneers, derision, fallacies and dismissals lacking any factual or logical merit.
I still recommend you read the Wikipedia page on David Wynn Miller for a good hardy laugh.
Thanks for the chuckle. Now you know how I feel about your absurdities -- except that his aren't to rationalize and justify the greatest evil in the history of the world.
 
First of all, they have not, to my mind, established a claim over the entire planet just by carving "No Trespassing" signs. I think it would be very difficult to established this claim. Of course, in Roy L.'s system, all I have to do is nudge Mars into a little different orbit with a well-placed nuclear blast on nearby asteroid which causes it to collide with Mars. Whee! It's all mine!
Well, in defense of Roy's system, he wouldn't let you have the planet just like that. You'd first have to pay a severance tax on it in order to own it, assuming the government (I'm not sure which government this would be) even authorized the whole planet to be taken as private property in the first place, which presumably it wouldn't (some stuff, including a planet's core, is kept as public property and not available to be taken as private property or for exclusive use at any price).
If you're not going to let me have the planet just for carving "No trespassing" signs on it, then it's reasonable for Roy to refuse to let you have it just for slamming an asteroid into it.

Practically, there's a big problem. One single firm controlling the whole economy faces the same problem as a socialist government: the calculation problem discovered by Mises.
I don't understand why you think Mises's economic calculation problem applies to my system. I don't have one firm controlling the whole economy; I just have one firm owning the entire planet (except for stuff which people declare to be mobile, except in the case that they fail to move the declared stuff when they lose auctions), and unconditionally renting out each piece of the planet to the highest bidder. I don't have any bureaucrats setting prices or allocating stuff; land prices are determined exclusively by bids in the free market, and allocation is determined exclusively by the winning bidders. My firm doesn't even produce anything, besides defensive services. The calculation problem doesn't apply here.

Everyone's bidding at the auctions, yes, but there's only one supply. This firm has total horizontal integration over a fundamental part of the economy.
Let's divide Mars into hemispheres, or even divide it steradially into a thousand pieces, with each piece independently owned and governed, but each piece independently using the same quasi-geoist system which I originally proposed for a unified planet. Now, the rent money goes just to the local government, and each citizen gets a dividend only from his local government; no planet-wide landlord or government exists. All of the governments have treaties for no tariffs, no restrictions on the movement of goods or people (except that people must acknowledge a government's legitimacy before entering its territory), and no restrictions on anybody in any place bidding on and renting parcels of land at any other place on the planet. How does that solve the problem which you claim my unified planet has?
 
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