What are some people's problem with Ron Paul supporting Homeschooling?

[AlabamaWildMan]

What is your freakin' problem? You DO know that old addage about 'ASSuming', don't you? IF no religion should, according to you, be taught in school because it is unproven, then, by extension of that 'logic', neither should evolution because it too is a THEORY. THIS is the problem with government run schools. Schools cannot be all things to all people and kow-towing to one group is, in essence, forcing their beliefs (or lack thereof) on the rest. Look at my quote from Pierce above and then get back to me when you grow up and turn into an adult who can debate an issue without with resorting to ad hominine attacks.

"... I will condemn you personally for brainwashing your children..."
-- -- -- That kid is about as sharp as a sack of wet mice....

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

Please see my last post to you above.

In other words, you refuse to answer the question now that the heat has been turned up in the kitchen. This does not surprise me. It appears that you will hold your children hostage to your own superstitions... sad.

 

[ConstitutionGal]

In other words, you refuse to answer the question now the heat has been turned up in the kitchen. This does not surprise me. It appears that you will hold your children hostage to your own superstitions... sad.

At the risk of being flamed or censored, here's my answer:

What it appears to be is that you are an ass who can't seem to stick to the subject at hand instead of trying to make yourself look somehow superior with all your petty personal attacks and conjecture.

NOW I'm done with you and have a better understanding of why you are on the "ignore" lists of others.

 

[Highstreet]

Make a deal with you: you teach your children (when you have any) the way you best see fit and I'll teach mine the way my husband and I best see fit. No government intervention involved either way.

This is acceptable to everyone.

We need to move on. There are a lot of Homeschoolers who support Paul.

Again, this is a Big Tent. We have to start showing the tolerance that Paul does.

 

[jblosser]

I have already stated that the GOVERNMENT HAS NO RIGHT TO IMPOSE ON YOUR HOME-SCHOOLING. Can I make it any more clear???

I have said that, MORALLY, I think it is wrong for you to hold your children hostage to your superstitious, religious beliefs. I don't care if you want to attempt to brainwash adults with your superstitions, but it's not fair to brainwash defenseless children with your religion and superstition. I find it interesting that you will not address the question I posed to you: Will you allow your children to read books discussing the case against superstition and religion, or will you hold them hostage to your own superstitious beliefs?

You do realize that you're pretty much the only person in this thread taking a position that includes limiting what perspectives children are exposed to, right?

Those of us that homeschool and have addressed this directly have advocated positions of teaching our kids basic logic and rhetoric skills, and exposing them to various viewpoints so they can figure things out. We do this because we value knowledge and logic and we don't fear our kids being unable to find the truth when they are so equipped.

You on the other hand seem quite concerned about the prospect kids might be exposed to "superstition" as you so eloquently put it, and are making statements about it being immoral to expose them to it. Granted maybe you only mean it's immoral to push it on them, not to expose them to it at all, but it doesn't sound like it. And maybe this is just because you assume all us damn religious fundamentalists will only teach one view of the world, but again, if you're reading what we're writing, you should by now know we aren't raising our kids that way.

If nothing else teaching the history of the world certainly involves exposing kids to the various religious ideas that have influenced most of humanity's history, and given children's inquisitiveness there's no real way to do that without having to answer some questions about "what's real". Of course parents are going to answer their kids honestly there, based on what they believe, and public school teachers are going to do the same (if they bother teaching comprehensive history at all, most don't). I'm not afraid of my kids being able to make up their own mind, why are you?

For the record: my only concern with what my kids are exposed to / "allowed" to read is that it's age-appropriate, which mostly means it won't give them nightmares. Since they're home schooled they're already able to read stuff currently written for high schoolers (the oldest is 7), but we avoid stuff that talks explicitly about gore and death so far (that's more relevant to TV than books). I get annoyed when they want to read modern crap fiction and encourage them to read classics instead (that oldest read unabridged Pinnochio at 5), but that's generally my only sticking point. If they want to read classical humanist, or Mormon, or Muslim texts, they're sitting on the bookshelves next to the Bibles.

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

I don't have any problem with children being exposed to various religions, but I do have a problem with them being brainwashed into a particular religion by their parents. Are these parents also allowing them to be exposed to rational thought and skepticism as well? In some cases, I doubt it. I think they are flat-out being brainwashed, and it's a terrible thing to see, because these children are defenseless against it.

Notice that as soon as I tried to pin ConstitutionGal down about whether she allows her children to read opposing points of view about religion (rational, skeptical views), she ran for the hills.

 

[moostraks]

I have already stated that the GOVERNMENT HAS NO RIGHT TO IMPOSE ON YOUR HOME-SCHOOLING. Can I make it any more clear???

I have said that, MORALLY, I think it is wrong for you to hold your children hostage to your superstitious, religious beliefs. I don't care if you want to attempt to brainwash adults with your superstitions, but it's not fair to brainwash defenseless children with your religion and superstition. I find it interesting that you will not address the question I posed to you: Will you allow your children to read books discussing the case against superstition and religion, or will you hold them hostage to your own superstitious beliefs?

Wow......This looks like we have Richard Dawkins in our mist.... As long as he votes Ron Paul, I guess for the first time I would have something in common with him...LOL Seriously, this is verbatim the rhetoric that Dawkins spews at his adversaries, so been indocrinated much?

 

[webber53]

I don't have any problem with children being exposed to various religions, but I do have a problem with them being brainwashed into a particular religion by their parents. Are these parents also allowing them to be exposed to rational thought and skepticism as well? In some cases, I doubt it. I think they are flat-out being brainwashed, and it's a terrible thing to see, because these children are defenseless against it.

Notice that as soon as I tried to pin ConstitutionGal down about whether she allows her children to read opposing points of view about religion (rational, skeptical views), she ran for the hills.

"I have said that, MORALLY, I think it is wrong for you to hold your children hostage to your superstitious, religious beliefs."

Since you will not answer my questions I'll follow you and keep asking.

Where do you get your basis for morality?

You speak of morals. Where does an agnostic such as yourself learn morality?

 

[enjerth]

No, they should be taught valid, accepted, peer-reviewed science. I assume you know what the scientific method is? I hope you are teaching it to your kids, and I assume you are. The scientific method is a series of steps a rational person can use to determine the validity of any claim or assertion. EVIDENCE is the key to science, rational thought, and critical thinking.

If someone puts forward a claim - "I played chess with bigfoot yesterday" - then the scientist's first question will always be the same: "Where is the valid evidence?"

I believe in things for which there is evidence. And there is NO valid evidence for any religion, even yours. Children should not be taught these divisive, blood-soaked ancient stories as "fact." It's not fair to the child to be subjected to this type of brainwashing. They are defenseless against it. By brainwashing your children into religion or bigfoot belief or whatever, you cripple and hinder their critical thinking faculties, by basically telling them to believe whatever the "higher authority" tells them to believe. All too often, this leads to societies that are easily steered into wars of aggression against other nations. If your children lack the ability to ask you, "Mommy, where is the valid evidence that Jonah lived in a fish's stomach for three days?" they might not ask their leaders, "Where is the evidence for weapons of mass destruction before you lead us into this war?"

You have every legal right to brainwash your children with dangerous fairytales, and I have every right to comdemn you for it.

Polls are evidence. Evidence can be manipulated. Science is not pure.

What's so dangerous about these so-called "fairy tales"?

I believe I have every right to say STFU noob.

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

"I have said that, MORALLY, I think it is wrong for you to hold your children hostage to your superstitious, religious beliefs."

Since you will not answer my questions I'll follow you and keep asking.

Where do you get your basis for morality?

You speak of morals. Where does an agnostic such as yourself learn morality?

How about the Golden Rule? It's an idea that pre-dates Christianity.

How about human decency and a sense of compassion and altruism? I don't need a blood-soaked ancient desert book to give me morals. I was born with them and instilled with them by my parents (who are not religious). If you need an old myth book to make you moral, you are the one with the problem, not me.

Explain to me why an atheist is far less likely to be in prison than a Christian? Why are atheists more likely than Christians to hold advanced college degrees? If we have no morals, why aren't we running wild and committing all these crimes, like "good Christians" are?

 

[jblosser]

I don't have any problem with children being exposed to various religions, but I do have a problem with them being brainwashed into a particular religion by their parents.

You have yet to define what you mean by "brainwashing", but if it includes teaching kids that what the parents believe to be true is true when the kids ask, you're out of luck. I'm not going to lie to my kids about what I believe to be true, nor am I going to ignore their questions. I'd be a deficient and arguably mentally abusive parent if I did.

Are these parents also allowing them to be exposed to rational thought and skepticism as well? In some cases, I doubt it.

No doubt some parents raise their kids in a bubble. Religious fundamentalists are hardly alone in that. The two-parent working wealthy families that have a working relationship only with their kids are a much more widespread problem in the same mold. Which ones shoot up schools, by the way?

I think they are flat-out being brainwashed, and it's a terrible thing to see, because these children are defenseless against it.

Dude if you think even young kids are defenseless against being able to think for themselves, you haven't met a lot of kids. Regardless, your concerns are in no way specific to homeschoolers, obviously. I understand why you'd think bubble children are more common among homeschoolers, since that's the popular myth, but even if it's true the corrollary that "most homeschooled kids are bubble children" is way off the mark.

Notice that as soon as I tried to pin ConstitutionGal down about whether she allows her children to read opposing points of view about religion (rational, skeptical views), she ran for the hills.

It's pretty clear from the 14 pages or whatever it is so far she doesn't have a problem with that stuff and that you aren't paying a lot of attention to what she does say. Instead there are non sequiters and ad hominems. I imagine she just got tired of it.

 

[enjerth]

Explain to me why an atheist is far less likely to be in prison than a Christian? Why are atheists more likely than Christians to hold advanced college degrees? If we have no morals, why aren't we running wild and committing all these crimes, like "good Christians" are?

Where's the evidence?

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

Where's the evidence?

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

 

[webber53]

QUOTE=MayTheRonBeWithYou;

How about the Golden Rule? It's an idea that pre-dates Christianity.

Prove it!
It comes from the Talmud.

Does it predate the Israelites?

 

[enjerth]

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Is it peer-reviewed?

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

Regardless, your concerns are in no way specific to homeschoolers, obviously. I understand why you'd think bubble children are more common among homeschoolers, since that's the popular myth, but even if it's true the corollary that "most homeschooled kids are bubble children" is way off the mark.

The argument has moved beyond home-schooling, which I very strongly support, into a more general discussion about whether a parent should be brainwashing their children with superstitious beliefs.

 

[moostraks]

MayTheRonBeWithYou;

How about the Golden Rule? It's an idea that pre-dates Christianity.

Where did you as an atheist or non-theist think this belief comes from? Why would a lower life form develop this morality? It does not serve the best interest of the individual to be altruistic...

 

[MayTheRonBeWithYou]

Is it peer-reviewed?

They are government statistics straight from the prisons!

Atheists make up about 10% of the US population, but only a tiny, tiny percentage of people incarcerated in US jails. Google it.

 

[webber53]

Your numbers do not add up based on population estimates

http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Same source:

"Not unexpected as a result. Note that atheists, being a moderate proportion of the USA population (about 8-16%) are disproportionately less in the prison populations (0.21%)."

How do you get majority of college graduates holding advanced degrees
are atheists from this cockeyed survey when there are a minority of the
civil population?

 

[enjerth]

They are government statistics straight from the prisons!

Atheists make up about 10% of the US population, but only a tiny, tiny percentage of people incarcerated in US jails. Google it.

Ok, so what can you tell me about the relationship between correlation and causation?