Was Christmas originally a pagan holiday? Nope.

[Sola_Fide]

If you don't understand that Jesus telling people "I never knew you" before sending them to hell is saying "have a relationship with Jesus" then you have a spiritual blindness that I cannot cure.

No it is not the same by any means. There is no where in the Bible where people are admonished to have a relationship with Jesus. Paul describes the gospel in the first 8 chapters of Romans, and this language is never used.

By the way, do you know what ginosko means when Jesus used it there? Where else is ginosko used in the New Testament, and what does it mean when it is used?

 

[euphemia]

Sola, what happens when you pray? The reason I ask that is your version sounds very much like the way Muslims interact about Allah (who is not real). There is no relationship in this life.

Jehovah God is real. He has a heart that is touched by our grief. His arm is not too short that it cannot save. He hears our prayers. He helps us in our weaknesses. He chastens. We are carved on the palms of his hands. Emmanuel means God with us. How is that not relationship?

 

[Dr.3D]

Another response with no verse that says "have a relationship with Jesus".

You are going to prove me wrong sometime soon, right?

Sola, our relationship with Christ is like that of a father and his children. Matthew 7:7-11

 

[erowe1]

Everybody has a relationship with Jesus. Most people are his enemy. But that's still a relationship.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Everybody has a relationship with Jesus. Most people are his enemy. But that's still a relationship.

I agree. The only point I'm making is that the modern evangelical presentation of the gospel as "have a relationship with Jesus" is not a Biblical gospel and not found anywhere in the Scriptures where the gospel is presented. The Bible uses the concepts of law, debt, accounting, transaction, etc. when discussing salvation.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Jesus was born, go out and kill another bazillion baby trees again, celebrate and have a ham for family dinner.

 

[Dr.3D]

Jesus was born, go out and kill another bazillion baby trees again, celebrate and have a ham for family dinner.

Well, I guess that's better than celebrating "Easter" and the Lamb of God by having a ham for dinner.

 

[MelissaWV]

Jesus was not born in December... sorry. It's a nice story, and all, but Luke 2:7-8 says shepherds were in the fields tending their flock when Jesus was born. Winter is Judea was not exactly conducive to 'being out in the fields'.

Luke 2:1-4 says Jesus' parents went to register in the Roman census (census not held in Winter as frozen roads and bad weather would defeat the purpose of a census).

This is still rather suspicious, and pointed out without bias. It hasn't been particularly refuted.

 

[Todd]

Jesus was born, go out and kill another bazillion baby trees again, celebrate and have a ham for family dinner.

Don't forget that time old tradition of racking up another cool 1K of credit card debt.

 

[Dr.3D]

Don't forget that time old tradition of racking up another cool 1K of credit card debt.

What better time of the year to do that what with the higher heating bills and all.

 

[erowe1]

Jesus was not born in December... sorry. It's a nice story, and all, but Luke 2:7-8 says shepherds were in the fields tending their flock when Jesus was born. Winter is Judea was not exactly conducive to 'being out in the fields'.

Luke 2:1-4 says Jesus' parents went to register in the Roman census (census not held in Winter as frozen roads and bad weather would defeat the purpose of a census).

December would very rarely be that cold in Israel. And you can see shepherds tending their flocks by night any time of year.

 

[Ronin Truth]

Well, I guess that's better than celebrating "Easter" and the Lamb of God by having a ham for dinner.

Perhaps having lamb would actually be much more appropriate.

 

[pcosmar]

I don't see why you call it an attempt at an argument. I don't claim that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. But Jmdrake said no Christians before Constantine dated the birth of Jesus to Dec. 25. And Julius Africanus did so (I think) 100 years before Constantine.

"Constantine" is Point in time that much error is attributed to. I see Constantine as as the point the errors were compounded by marriage to the state.
When he is mentioned , it is usually referring to the time frame rather than an actual date. an era,,

I do believe errors the error began earlier and were both rampant and evident 100 years before.


Though,, I tend to place known scripture above all writings and opinions of men since.. and judge by that.

 

[Dr.3D]

Perhaps having lamb would actually be much more appropriate.

Would seem that way wouldn't it?

 

[MelissaWV]

December would very rarely be that cold in Israel. And you can see shepherds tending their flocks by night any time of year.

WINTER (Dec-early Mar)
Israel's winter weather fluctuates. Some winters are mild and sunny, while some are severe and overcast. There’s often heavy rain. In January and February it may even snow in parts of the country. Temperatures range in the 50-60F (10-15C) in most places, but in the 40’s (5C) in Jerusalem and the Galilee hills – where it can be very cold at night.

I don't think the census was avoided in winter for the reason listed, but also remember reading that the census would suggest Jesus' birth was not in December.

 

[Dr.3D]

(census not held in Winter as frozen roads and bad weather would defeat the purpose of a census).

Yeah, imagine all those donkeys in the ditch and having to call for a tow ox, it would be miserable.

 

[erowe1]

I don't think the census was avoided in winter for the reason listed, but also remember reading that the census would suggest Jesus' birth was not in December.

It's an oft-made argument, based on claims made by a couple of influential early 20th century authors (Edersheim and Shurer). But I think it's a much less serious objection than some make it out to be.

 

[fisharmor]

You right now know in your heart that you must give an account. What you don't know is that the account you'll give won't be enough to escape judgement. Only Christians have this knowledge.

I'm sorry.... where is this in Scripture, exactly?
Let me clarify: I'm looking for where in Scripture you got the idea that the account-giving has anything at all to do with escaping judgment.

 

[MelissaWV]

It's an oft-made argument, based on claims made by a couple of influential early 20th century authors (Edersheim and Shurer). But I think it's a much less serious objection than some make it out to be.

Could be, and it could be that the census was moved due to extraordinary circumstance, but I found it interesting that it wasn't refuted given that the entire narrative hinges on the census forcing them to travel.

 

[hells_unicorn]

everything you say is simply your belief.. thats it.. to somebody of a different religion youre the one wrong get it?

Nope, it's several centuries of doctrine as espoused by the Covenanted Church of Scotland. If you doubt this, try reading the Solemn League and Covenant and the Westminster Confession and Larger & Shorter Catechisms. You can't on one hand say it's just "my opinion" and on the other whine about established church dogmas, it's either one or the other. If you want to accuse me of making stuff up, kindly keep your B.S. consistent.

Im not an atheist by any means. I simply dont agree with church dogma.. These discussions are pointless because they become nothing more than my religion is better than your religion kind of stuff..

Oh, excuse me, if you want to be a DEIST (no consequential difference on the point of being individually centered, ergo you're projecting when accusing me of simply touting arbitrary individual beliefs) you go ahead. And these discussions are only pointless to you because you've swallowed this pagan American concept that all religion is equal, a dogma unto itself I might add.

I dont need to go thru another man to pray to God or confess.... period.. those are my beliefs.. Im not the one who started with the snarky tone either, it was your buddy.... so if you guys cant be tolerant of others' dont expect it in return.

I'm not asking you to be tolerant, I just don't go for this patronizing "that's good for you but I think differently" crap. If you think I'm a superstitious idiot (you've all but explicitly said so), then just come out and say it. There is nothing more deeply disturbing than people who think "he believes something crazy or irrational" but then say "It's okay by me for him to think that way." It's about as disturbing as people who disagree with drinking and driving but hand their buddy the keys after a power-drinking session.