Was Christmas originally a pagan holiday? Nope.

[Sola_Fide]

He, who knew no sin, became sin to satisfy God's demand for a righteous sacrifice. Even yours, if you believe that.

So it's for the ones who believe? Or is it for every person?

 

[euphemia]

The Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and whosover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[TER]

So it's for the ones who believe? Or is it for every person?

In all seriousness, can this conversation be started on a new thread? I think it would be a great discussion to have. For the purposes of this thread, however, I appreciate it if it was focused on the origins of December 25th as the date for Christmas. Thanks!

 

[Sola_Fide]

The Bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God and whosover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Right, but you weren't taking about faith, you were talking about the atonement. Is the atonement made for every person? Or the ones who believe?

 

[euphemia]

I can derail too: Is your hotel decorated for Christmas?

 

[TER]

Really?? Is it so difficult to start a new thread? Is it so difficult to respect the wish of another forum member here? Here I can start if for you.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...s-not-believe-it-exists&p=6076207#post6076207

 

[RJB]

Really?? Is it so difficult to start a new thread? Is it so difficult to respect the wish of another forum member here? Here I can start if for you.

It's his way of saying, "Bah Humbug!"

 

[euphemia]

To get back to the original topic, I belong to a church that celebrates the life of Christ. Advent and the Incarnation is the start of the earthly life of Christ, therefore the start of the church year.

 

[robert68]

Hi, I was wondering whether you can help me find which writing of St. John Chrysostom's this is in. I have found this quote often quoted today while trying to find it's source (usually in anti-Christian blogs), and there has not been one reference or footnote to suggest where it is from, which is odd since St. John Chrysostom's Nativity homily is well circulated and does not state the quote abov. What I have read from the writings of St. John Chrysostom is that the Dec 25th date for the Nativity of Christ is from ancient in the West and had been thoroughly vetted and investigated to confirm it's authenticity. If you can find the source of your quote above, I would be greatly interested to read the context it was in (if, in fact, it is an actual quote of St. John). Thanks!

There's some info here, page 49. It's google books, so there's no c & p.
The Gnostics and Their Remains: Ancient and Mediaeval
By Charles William King

 

[TER]

There's some info here, page 49. It's google books, so there's no c & p.
The Gnostics and Their Remains: Ancient and Mediaeval
By Charles William King

Is this considered a scholarly work? And if so, by whom? It says a brief mention of Jihn Chrysostom, but does not say what the quote I had asked about earlier is taken from. It says Homily 31, but in what writing?

Do you have a direct reference for the quote you used above? That is what I am looking for. Thanks!

Below is taken from a Homily os St. John Chrysostom regarding the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

By St. John Chrysostom:

I behold a new and wondrous mystery! My ears resound to the Shepherd's song, piping no soft melody, but chanting full forth a heavenly hymn.

The Angels sing!

The Archangels blend their voices in harmony!

The Cherubim hymn their joyful praise!

The Seraphim exalt His glory!

All join to praise this holy feast, beholding the Godhead here on earth, and man in heaven. He Who is above, now for our redemption dwells here below; and he that was lowly is by divine mercy raised.

Bethlehem this day resembles heaven; hearing from the stars the singing of angelic voices; and in place of the sun, enfolds within itself on every side, the Sun of Justice. And ask not how: for where God wills, the order of nature yields. For He willed, He had the power, He descended, He redeemed; all things move in obedience to God. This day He Who is, is Born; and He Who is, becomes what He was not. For when He was God, He became man; yet not departing from the Godhead that is His. Nor yet by any loss of divinity became He man, nor through increase became He God from man; but being the Word He became flesh, His nature, because of impassibility, remaining unchanged…

And so the kings have come, and they have seen the heavenly King that has come upon the earth, not bringing with Him Angels, nor Archangels, nor Thrones, nor Dominations, nor Powers, nor Principalities, but, treading a new and solitary path, He has come forth from a spotless womb.

Yet He has not forsaken His angels, nor left them deprived of His care, nor because of His Incarnation has he departed from the Godhead.

And behold kings have come, that they might adore the heavenly King of glory;

soldiers, that they might serve the Leader of the Hosts of Heaven;

women, that they might adore Him Who was born of a woman so that He might change the pains of child-birth into joy;

virgins, to the Son of the Virgin, beholding with joy, that He Who is the Giver of milk, Who has decreed that the fountains of the breast pour forth in ready streams, receives from a Virgin Mother the food of infancy;

infants, that they may adore Him Who became a little child, so that out of the mouth of infants and of sucklings, He might perfect praise;

children, to the Child Who raised up martyrs through the rage of Herod;

men, to Him Who became man, that He might heal the miseries of His servants;

shepherds, to the Good Shepherd Who has laid down His life for His sheep;

priests, to Him Who has become a High Priest according to the order of Melchisedech;

servants, to Him Who took upon Himself the form of a servant that He might bless our servitude with the reward of freedom;

fisherman, to Him Who from amongst fishermen chose catchers of men;

publicans, to Him Who from amongst them named a chosen Evangelist;

sinful women, to Him Who exposed His feet to the tears of the repentant; and that I may embrace them all together, all sinners have come, that they may look upon the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world.

Since therefore all rejoice, I too desire to rejoice. I too wish to share the choral dance, to celebrate the festival. But I take my part, not plucking the harp, not shaking the Thyrsian staff, not with the music of the pipes, nor holding a torch, but holding in my arms the cradle of Christ. For this is all my hope, this my life, this my salvation, this my pipe, my harp. And bearing it I come, and having from its power received the gift of speech, I too, with the angels, sing: Glory to God in the Highest; and with the shepherds, and on earth peace to men of good will.

 

[Sola_Fide]

To get back to the original topic, I belong to a church that celebrates the life of Christ. Advent and the Incarnation is the start of the earthly life of Christ, therefore the start of the church year.

Where in the Bible does it say that a Christian should celebrate the birth of Christ? And if it doesn't, why do you willingly belong to a church that is not biblical?

 

[Christian Liberty]

Where in the Bible does it say that a Christian should celebrate the birth of Christ? And if it doesn't, why do you willingly belong to a church that is not biblical?

No church is Biblical on every issue.

 

[Christian Liberty]

And to be clear, I'm NOT saying that we shouldn't care if a church is Biblical, just that we have to weigh our options and choose the best church available UNLESS that church teaches damnable heresy. If the only options are a Mormon Church and Jehovah's Witnesses kingdom hall, you don't go to either. If the best option is a Presbyterian Church (not FV just so we don't have to get into that) that is moderately RPW and still has Christmas Services, you should go. I still wouldn't choose to go to the Christmas service on a day other than the sabbath. If you can find a church that doesn't do it, great. But its not worth not going to a church over unless you can find something better.

 

[dusman]

I found this source, which does make a very good argument in favor of December 25th or near that date based on chronological evidence in the gospel. It's worth reading and I appreciate the pragmatic effort he put forth vs. the typical conjecture I've found elsewhere. His approach wasn't to prove December 25th was the exact date, merely if it were possible based on scriptural evidence. I still have a lot of questions based on his findings, though.. so I'm still not convinced. Nonetheless, worth sharing here:

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/58/58-2/JETS_58-2_299-324_Simmons.pdf

THE ORIGINS OF CHRISTMAS ANDTHE DATE OF CHRIST’S BIRTH
KURT M. SIMMONS*

The origins of Christmas and the date of Christ’s birth are separate but relatedquestions. However, Christmas is usually assumed to have no connection withthe actual date of Christ’s birth. Discussions regarding the origins of Christmastypically omit reference to the birth of Christ, unless it is to affirm it is unlikely hewas born December 25th. This is unfortunate because it has skewed discussion andtaken it in directions which tend to impugn the legitimacy of Christmas itself.However, chronological evidence strongly favors December 25th being the actualdate of the nativity, such that the assumption that Christmas is unconnected withthe date of Christ’s birth is no longer academically defensible or sound.

I'm trying to see if I can pick up a copy of Toward the Origins of Christmas by Susan K. Roll (preview: Google Books), as she picks up where several serious efforts on the Christmas question left off in the mid-20th century. From some long searching, I think the prevailing contemporary studies on this question rest upon two: "History of Religions Theory" (origins from Pagan Festivals) and "Calculation Theory" (origins predating Pagan Festivals). Her book assesses both against each other, while the PDF above sort of takes a different approach entirely.

 

[TER]

I found this source, which does make a very good argument in favor of December 25th or near that date based on chronological evidence in the gospel. It's worth reading and I appreciate the pragmatic effort he put forth vs. the typical conjecture I've found elsewhere. His approach wasn't to prove December 25th was the exact date, merely if it were possible based on scriptural evidence. I still have a lot of questions based on his findings, though.. so I'm still not convinced. Nonetheless, worth sharing here:

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/58/58-2/JETS_58-2_299-324_Simmons.pdf



I'm trying to see if I can pick up a copy of Toward the Origins of Christmas by Susan K. Roll (preview: Google Books), as she picks up where several serious efforts on the Christmas question left off in the mid-20th century. From some long searching, I think the prevailing contemporary studies on this question rest upon two: "History of Religions Theory" (origins from Pagan Festivals) and "Calculation Theory" (origins predating Pagan Festivals). Her book assesses both against each other, while the PDF above sort of takes a different approach entirely.

That first link is outstanding! Thank you!

Edit: some conclusions he makes I question, and I would be interested in what parts particularly impressed you.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

I hope you didn't miss the point, hb, about the sanitary expressions we get from Sola Fide. It is very similar to how Muslims worship the Allah of Mohammed's writing. There is never any relationship, just a lot of deal making. If I do this, Allah will have seven virgins for me in heaven. <--- Totally not the truth. At no point did Mohammed's Allah ever come to earth to sacrifice himself for the redemption of mankind. What Mohammed did was hijack the OT law and create a religion and system of government that makes him the one who decides.

Jehovah is personal. Jesus is personal. The Holy Spirit is personal. Emmanuel. God with us.

I'd have to parse the a bit to get the heterodoxy out of it, but not bad. I'd just like emphasize that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same essence and undivided. Attempts to separate them are nothing new and have long been dismissed as heretical.

 

[euphemia]

I wasn't separating them. They are three in one. They are personal.

 

[presence]

Natalie Singer-Velush

My Kids Won’t Not Believe in Santa


Editor's note: This is part 1. Here is part 2.



One night a couple of years ago I was sitting in a bar (what, not how you expected a family Christmas story to begin?) when I casually mentioned to my group of friends and acquaintances that I had recently told my kids there was no Santa.


I might as well have said that I like to eat live baby bunnies dipped in ketchup. One guy in particular, an author and dad of a young boy, was incensed.

“You’re co-opting their childhood,” he said, not teasing but actually angry, drawing accusatory stares to me from around the bustling pub. “You’re not allowing their imaginations to flourish. Children need to create worlds of pretend in order to develop.

It’s wrong.”


Yeah, yeah, just take the letter ‘n’ from the middle of “Santa” and move it to the end of the word, and that’s me.


Before you take his side, let me explain how it really went down: The kids, 3 ½ and 5 at the time, had asked me — as kids are wont to do — “Is Santa Claus real?”



We’re a very pragmatic household. A long time ago, my husband and I made a pact not to lie in our family, not to each other or, whenever feasible, not to our kids.


I want my children to understand, within the confines of their safe and very privileged existence, that there is a reality out there that is not always a fantasyland of perfection.


Also, did I mention the kids are half Jewish?



But whatever our reasons, I’m not a “killer of worlds of pretend.” We pretend all the time: We tell stories; my kids create elaborate plays and shows and make-believe worlds; we read fairy tales and fantasy books. They have a laundry basket of dress-up clothes, for goodness sake.


But when they asked me, their little eyes searching back and forth across my face, I found that I could not outright lie.


So I fell back on a mantra that I repeat often, and that I really do think has truth:


“There’s not a man who flies around the world in one single night delivering presents to every child,” I began gently.


“But I think that when you really believe in something in your heart, then it can be true for you.”


And what happened next, you ask? Did the kids cry out in emotional trauma, shriek, fall to the floor in grief, forever damaged, their growth and development stunted?

No. They just patently refused to accept it.

Santa, they agreed, shaking their heads and looking at each other gravely, was absolutely and most definitely real, end of story.

So, as I said, a couple of years passed, and now the kids are 5 and 7.

This year, the kids are old enough to really be aware of the full commercial circus that is American Christmas. The toy catalogues, the themed media, the cheap clothing, the decorations and advertising and holiday hype everywhere.

A couple of weeks ago they huddled together with a red marker to write their Christmas lists, which they then presented happily to us and which read something close to:

Dear Santa: We would each like approximately 48 American Girl dolls each (the ones that cost more than $100), associated furniture for American Girl dolls (Julie’s bed, $125; Caroline’s parlor, $300; Rebecca’s Sideboard and Sabbath set, $198 — plug for the Jews!), new books, new clothes, new art supplies, and a bunch more expensive things which are just new iterations of stuff we already own. Love, L and T.

​

Still remembering the sting two years ago of being labeled a dream killer, I waded in delicately this time, choosing instead to play the fairness-in-economics card.


“I think you need to ask for less,” I said, gently. “It might be other children’s turns to get the big things this year.”


“There is no Santa,” my husband threw in.


Being the wise old ages of 5 ½ and 7, my kids were the ones who were incensed this time.


They knit their brows, clenched their fists, and ran off upstairs.


“Now we’ve done it,” I said to my husband. “Permanent damage. Innocence lost. Imaginations de.to.na.ted.”


But 20 minutes later, the girls marched haughtily back into the den, clutching a freshly written letter, which read something very close to:

Dear Santa: We are very sorry some peple dont beleev in you. We know you are reel and you live in the North Pool with elfs and raindeers and you will bring us all the pressents. Love L and T.


​

My kids refuse not to believe in Santa. No matter what we say, we just can’t kill their dream.


They Believe, with a capital ‘B.’


Which, I am deciding, is perfectly fine. After all, my original goal in being honest about the jolly fat man was not to force them to refute Santa, but to avoid lying to them.


Maybe they know in their hearts, as probably many children do, that it’s unlikely a so obviously out-of-shape man flies around the world in one night with a sleigh of unlimited gifts.


Or, maybe their view of the world so far is that we live on a planet so small, so magical, so full of common human dreams, that anything is still possible for them.


Bottom line, they believe because they want to, despite the odds, and not because we told them a warm and fuzzy story.


And if they believe in something, who am I to say it’s not, in some way or another, true?

https://www.parentmap.com/article/my-kids-wont-not-believe-in-santa-a-family-christmas-story-part-1



^^^ how I generally feel about the jesus birth story when confronted by christian othodoxy

 

[erowe1]

I'd have to parse the a bit to get the heterodoxy out of it, but not bad. I'd just like emphasize that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are of the same essence and undivided. Attempts to separate them are nothing new and have long been dismissed as heretical.

What that she said do you see as heterodox?

 

[Ronin Truth]

Really?? Is it so difficult to start a new thread? Is it so difficult to respect the wish of another forum member here? Here I can start if for you.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...s-not-believe-it-exists&p=6076207#post6076207

Gee, I probably couldn't have managed to say that any better myself.