Was America founded on Judeo-Christian Principles? Of Course it was!

[IcyPeaceMaker]

This will shed much light on the Johnny-come-lately "judeo" thingy:
http://www.foundingfathers.info/federalistpapers/

 

[Deborah K]

The lie of Seperation of Church and State. What lie? It was a suggestion by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to a church. The first amendment supports his opinion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"

If they cannot make any laws resecting or prohibiting isnt this a "wall of Seperation between church and state"?

You are right that the words come from a letter he wrote to the Danbury Baptist Church in an attempt to calm their concerns over a rumor they heard that the government was planning to choose a 'state religion'. The lie I refer to is the one that has been perpetuated ever since the Engle v. Vitale case in which the attorney took those words out of context in an effort to remove religion from public affairs, specifically prayer from schools. Since then, that phrase has been taken to mean "freedom FROM religion" and completely ignores the second clause "...prohibiting the free exercise thereof". If you ask the average Media mall zombie if that phrase, SOCS, is in the first amendment, they'll answer "yes".

No where in the amendment, or any where else in the Constitution does it prohibit the free exercise of religious practices in public forums yet ever since that unprecedented ruling, the 'free exercise' clause has been systematically removed from public arenas. And thus, we now have a movement in this country that is denying our godly heritage altogether.

I don't have time tonight, but I'll answer your questions about who was what religion, etc.

 

[IcyPeaceMaker]

Want to know why there is an attack on Christianity?


Written by a Jew (a real one)
WHY JEWS DESPISE THE IDEA OF AMERICAN “NATIONHOOD”

Here are 3 reason why Jews wage war on American nationalism:


1) The soul of the American nation is built *not* upon ideals such as the Jew-promoted ideas of “democracy” & “equality for all men.” But rather on our common memory of America’s Christian roots, Her heroes, and a shared hope in Christ’s Providential care.

~~ But Jews despise Christianity and hate the Lord Jesus Christ! ~~

2) The soul of the American nation is built upon love for America’s soil upon which Her heroes fought for freedom. These heroes were Christians such as George Washington, Patrick Henry, Jonathan Edwards, Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Fanny Crosby, William Jennings Bryan, and Louis T. McFadden.

~~ But Jews despise Christian heroes and their love of the Christian cause! ~~

3) The soul of the American nation is built upon the common culture and customs of America. The customs of America which have formed American culture are Christian holy days such as Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving.

~~ But Jews despise Christian holy days and wage war on all public expressions of love for Christian holy days! ~~

Please see the whole article here: http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=159

 

[Patriot123]

ROFL!!! Thirty five of the Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of the orthodox Christian Churches and others were evangelical Christians. Heheh are you implying they were all atheists? Where is your evidence of this? LOL

Benjamin Franklin was quite possibly if not definitely an Atheist, however an overwhelming majority of them were Deists. This includes the most notable founders. Just to set the stage light metaphorically speaking, Thomas Paine even wrote a book to disprove the religion of Christianity. Even if you want to delve into trying to dispute this and arguing these facts, what you cannot argue is that our founders created a nation and society where religious freedom was an absolute right. They did not, never intended to and would likely to have refused to base the country off of any religion including Christianity and Judaism. There were no Jews, if not one or two in America when it was founded, anyway. So even if you want to argue that the founders were Christian [which a large majority of them were abolutely not] you cannot dispute the fact that our nation was not founded on the basis of any religion, because our founders knew that with an established religion came persecution, hatred, etcetera.

1) The soul of the American nation is built *not* upon ideals such as the Jew-promoted ideas of “democracy” & “equality for all men.” But rather on our common memory of America’s Christian roots, Her heroes, and a shared hope in Christ’s Providential care.

~~ But Jews despise Christianity and hate the Lord Jesus Christ! ~~

2) The soul of the American nation is built upon love for America’s soil upon which Her heroes fought for freedom. These heroes were Christians such as George Washington, Patrick Henry, Jonathan Edwards, Davy Crockett, Daniel Boone, Fanny Crosby, William Jennings Bryan, and Louis T. McFadden.

~~ But Jews despise Christian heroes and their love of the Christian cause! ~~

3) The soul of the American nation is built upon the common culture and customs of America. The customs of America which have formed American culture are Christian holy days such as Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving.

~~ But Jews despise Christian holy days and wage war on all public expressions of love for Christian holy days! ~~

Oh, please. George Washington was a deist. Not a Christian. And this nation was never founded as a Christian nation, ever. And I love how you're trying to come across as making all Jews out to be these, "evil pigs who are trying to take over America"

 

[IcyPeaceMaker]

My friend, thay aren't trying..........they rule America today.

There is alot of proof, even Harvard University knows these facts:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Who+...d=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

Even Harvard University knows they control America:
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-83-page-report-AIPAC-controls-USA.pdf

 

[Patriot123]

My friend, thay aren't trying..........they rule America today.

There is alot of proof, even Harvard University knows these facts:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Who+...d=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

Even Harvard University knows they control America:
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-83-page-report-AIPAC-controls-USA.pdf

Ah... We're ruling America, now? Like dictators? Sorry, believe I'm ten pages back in the conspircay book about the "Holohoax"one. I'm sorry, perhaps you bring me up to speed on Alex Jones' newest page?

 

[Deborah K]

Benjamin Franklin was quite possibly if not definitely an Atheist, however an overwhelming majority of them were Deists. This includes the most notable founders. Just to set the stage light metaphorically speaking, Thomas Paine even wrote a book to disprove the religion of Christianity. Even if you want to delve into trying to dispute this and arguing these facts, what you cannot argue is that our founders created a nation and society where religious freedom was an absolute right. They did not, never intended to and would likely to have refused to base the country off of any religion including Christianity and Judaism. There were no Jews, if not one or two in America when it was founded, anyway. So even if you want to argue that the founders were Christian [which a large majority of them were abolutely not] you cannot dispute the fact that our nation was not founded on the basis of any religion, because our founders knew that with an established religion came persecution, hatred, etcetera.

So what you're saying is, the research done by the University of Houston which I presented in my OP and which is based on 15,000 writings and their origins, is just bunk because you said so??? Sorry but you're going to have to do a much better job of disproving the research.

As far as your claim that the founders were atheists, deists, etc. blah, blah, blah.
Debunk the following then, and do it with the research of reputable sources otherwise please stop wasting my time and everyone else's who would like to have an intellectually honest debate about this.

Religious Affiliation of the Delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787, including the Signers of the Constitution of the United States of America.

There were 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention of 1787 at which the U.S. Constitution was drafted and signed. All participated in the proceedings which resulted in the Constitution, but only 39 of these delegates were actually signers of the document.

From: Robert G. Ferris (editor), Signers of the Constitution: Historic Places Commemorating the Signing of the Constitution, published by the United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service: Washington, D.C. (revised edition 1976), page 138:

Most of the [signers of the Constitution] married and fathered children. Sherman sired the largest family, numbering 15 by two wives... Three (Baldwin, Gilman, and Jenifer) were lifetime bachelors. In terms of religious affiliation, the men mirrored the overwhelmingly Protestant character of American religious life at the time and were members of various denominations. Only two, Carroll and Fitzsimons, were Roman Catholics.

Religious Affiliation # of delegates % of delegates

Episcopalian/Anglican 31 56.4%
Presbyterian 16 29.1%
Congregationalist 8 14.5%
Quaker 3 5.5%
Catholic 2 3.6%
Methodist 2 3.6%
Lutheran 2 3.6%
Dutch Reformed 2 3.6%

TOTAL 55 100%


Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation

Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Read - Delaware Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian
David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian
George Washington Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran
William Few Georgia Methodist
Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian
James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian
William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian
William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran


Name of Non-Signing Delegate State Religious Affiliation
Oliver Ellsworth Connecticut Congregationalist
Caleb Strong Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Lansing, Jr. New York Dutch Reformed
Robert Yates New York Dutch Reformed
William Houstoun Georgia Episcopalian
William Leigh Pierce Georgia Episcopalian
Luther Martin Maryland Episcopalian
John F. Mercer Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
George Mason Virginia Episcopalian
Edmund J. Randolph Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
James McClurg Virginia Presbyterian
William C. Houston New Jersey Presbyterian
William R. Davie North Carolina Presbyterian
Alexander Martin North Carolina Presbyterian


Source: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

 

[LibertiORDeth]

Although a large part of the founders were Christians, there was a large group of atheists/pagans such as the Masons who laid the foundation for this country. And I find this who discussion ludicrous.

 

[mtmedlin]

So what is your argument? Are you saying that because these men self identified themselves as one of the many factions of Christianity that our government is founded on Christian principles? My question is this, what was Christianity founded on? Many of the "ideals" that were laid out in the carefully selected scrolls commonly refered to as the Bible are nothing more then ancient principles handed down by vocal tradition or writings of other great thinkers. Plato played a much bigger role in the formation of our country then the biblical principles of the christians.

IN PLATO WE TRUST!

 

[Deborah K]

So what is your argument? Are you saying that because these men self identified themselves as one of the many factions of Christianity that our government is founded on Christian principles? My question is this, what was Christianity founded on? Many of the "ideals" that were laid out in the carefully selected scrolls commonly refered to as the Bible are nothing more then ancient principles handed down by vocal tradition or writings of other great thinkers. Plato played a much bigger role in the formation of our country then the biblical principles of the christians.

IN PLATO WE TRUST!

As I mentioned in my first post, my argument is that I reject the desire to revise history on this matter. First it was the misinterpretation of "Separation of Church and State" and now all we hear is how our Founders were atheists and deists. Granted, some were, but a very small number. It's sickening how people with an agenda will advance a lie and repeat it often enough that people begin to believe it is the truth.

I am making an attempt at quelling yet another lie about the founders, the founding documents, and the role Christianity has played in our nation's history.

That's it.

 

[Deborah K]

Although a large part of the founders were Christians, there was a large group of atheists/pagans such as the Masons who laid the foundation for this country. And I find this who discussion ludicrous.

Feel free NOT to participate then. Do you know anything about the masons? Are you implying they are atheists?

 

[micahnelson]

The country was founded on the principles of the enlightenment, religious affiliations of the founders aside.

Though, as you so meticulous pointed out, they all were involved with religious organizations, they saw it neccessary to leave out religious documentation in our founding articles with the exception of a concept that the people get their rights from a creator- not a government.

Missing are references to the Christian church, Jesus, etc. While initially the founders were much more open to religious functions of government at the state level, Massachusetts is a great example, Religious observance beyond simple traditions such as opening with prayer were purposefully and specifically left out.

The reason? The mike huckabee's of the world. The founders were wise enough to know that state religions become tools of oppression. While we come from a heritage of Christian principles, lets not remember that the puritans that brought us that heritage were, themselves, running from a state religion. We inherited much from the enlightenment, Plato, and certainly English Common Law.

Saying all that to say this, most people who espouse the idea that we have a Christian heritage are not aiming to establish a nostalgic look back to our foundation. They are looking to establish a historical link that will justify actions today. Modern Christianity, if it continues to imbed itself into the federal government, will become a tool of oppression like all the others in their arsenal.

As a Christian, i deeply oppose the use of the name of God to justify everything from a war on terror to welfare programs.

Do you really want to shake up government in the name of Christ? Care for the poor, clothe the naked, teach the illiterate. Our government requires dependency. If the church could fill its proper role as "Salt of the earth", then we would see the type of Christianity that focuses on the individual- something the state will never do.

I'm not attacking you, please don't misunderstand. It has taken me a while to understand that the government can't and should not preserve our faith. Society isn't going down the drain because of the government's lack of support for the church, it is the failure of the Church to be what it can and should be.

 

[Ranger29860]

I heard this argument all the time while i was in high school (private Christian school) they all said that the country was founded on Christian values and anytime you questioned that you got in trouble


my question to you is what are Christian values and how do they differ from other values I'm not a Christian i'm a deist but i still believe in allot of things (morally) in the bible that had not originated solely from the bible .

Now there are some things that do concern me like the putting to death of gays and children. that brings me to another question how could the idea of liberty and justice be prevalent in the constitution if most of the founders were 100% Christians i don't see how stoning children is a GOOD value that would be accepted in a free society same with the homosexual's are bad argument i hear on a daily basis

just because a person declares themselves as Christian does not mean that they base there decisions on the bible or believe every word of it .if the founders did influence the country based on Christian values that it is not apparent in the constitution or the bill of rights. read Thomas Pains writings there are some real eye openers

p.s. i'm not taking any particular swipes at individuals are groups just stating opinion so please be gentle

 

[Deborah K]

Do you really want to shake up government in the name of Christ?

I don't think you can deduce that from my argument. If you're asking me if I think Christianity should hijack the government then the answer is a resounding no. My objective as I stated before is to try and stop this ridiculous myth that Judeo-Christian values had nothing whatever to do with the founding of this nation.

 

[Tdcci]

The lie I refer to is the one that has been perpetuated ever since the Engle v. Vitale case in which the attorney took those words out of context in an effort to remove religion from public affairs, specifically prayer from schools.

This is a half-truth at best, at worst an outright lie. Engle v. Vitale established that Government directed prayer was unconstitutional, for obvious reasons- the school is part of the state!

Since then, that phrase has been taken to mean "freedom FROM religion" and completely ignores the second clause "...prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

Nothing stops you from exercising your religion, you are merely restricted from using your position of authority, whether it be in school or anywhere else to impose your religious views on everyone else.

If you ask the average Media mall zombie if that phrase, SOCS, is in the first amendment, they'll answer "yes".

SOCS is implied with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

No one is "denying our godly heritage", religion is just not something to be proud of, it's an old and destructive thing that has outlived its usefulness. My ancestors, as well as probably being religious, probably didn't practice proper hygiene by today's standards. Why should I emulate that?

 

[Deborah K]

my question to you is what are Christian values and how do they differ from other values I'm not a Christian i'm a deist but i still believe in allot of things (morally) in the bible that had not originated solely from the bible

This is sort of off the point, but I'll try....Christian values are ideas and beliefs that are held up as a way to conduct oneself. iThey are how individuals or a group of individuals organize their ethical or ideological belief systems. They give us a basis for determining what is right and what is wrong. For example, the law says, don't kill, the bible says it as well but we're also told by Jesus in the bible, 'don't be angry, don't hate'. Clearly if you can prevent the anger and the hate, you can prevent the murder. I know this is very simplistic, and it barely scratches the surface, but it might help give you an idea about how Christian values work.

 

[mtmedlin]

As I mentioned in my first post, my argument is that I reject the desire to revise history on this matter. First it was the misinterpretation of "Separation of Church and State" and now all we hear is how our Founders were atheists and deists. Granted, some were, but a very small number. It's sickening how people with an agenda will advance a lie and repeat it often enough that people begin to believe it is the truth.

I am making an attempt at quelling yet another lie about the founders, the founding documents, and the role Christianity has played in our nation's history.

That's it.

Ok, but you also didnt mention any of the other points that I made. Most christian principles arent anything new. Even Christianity has roots that are far deeper then a religion that is only 2000 years old. read the Bhagavad Gita and many of the same principles are there and is over 1000 years older.

 

[yongrel]

Agreed. The United States was founded on Christian values. This is why stoning disobedient women and sons is a pillar of our society. It is also why we are a polygamous culture. In addition, because of America's Christian founding values, we practice the custom of eating the "fruit of the womb,"; the flesh of the children of our slain enemies.

I'm glad America was founded with Christian values.

 

[Deborah K]

This is a half-truth at best, at worst an outright lie. Engle v. Vitale established that Government directed prayer was unconstitutional, for obvious reasons- the school is part of the state!



Nothing stops you from exercising your religion, you are merely restricted from using your position of authority, whether it be in school or anywhere else to impose your religious views on everyone else.



SOCS is implied with "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

No one is "denying our godly heritage", religion is just not something to be proud of, it's an old and destructive thing that has outlived its usefulness. My ancestors, as well as probably being religious, probably didn't practice proper hygiene by today's standards. Why should I emulate that?

An outright lie? How so? Up to that point in our history, kids could pray in school, etc, etc. For 175 years this was the case and more. Again, sheesh, you need to check your history facts. Look at Reynolds v. United States, Everson v. Board of Education, Baer v. Kolmorgen.

No one is denying our godly heritage? I invite the readers on this forum to look through Tdcc's posts and read what he/she has written. Talk about lies.

Tdcc, start backing up your argument with facts because I'm not going to waste my time with baseless opinions.

 

[Deborah K]

Ok, but you also didnt mention any of the other points that I made. Most christian principles arent anything new. Even Christianity has roots that are far deeper then a religion that is only 2000 years old. read the Bhagavad Gita and many of the same principles are there and is over 1000 years older.

I have no argument with you on that. Again, I am debating the denial of Christian principles in our heritage.