(War on Women) NYC: 10 hours of Harassment or Compliments?

[PaulConventionWV]

He is completely doing the right thing here though, and should be applauded for that. Personally it puts me at ease when men do that. Even brief eye contact and a smile or nod will do enough to show you aren't a threat. This is exactly the sort of thing people discuss when they discuss what men can do to police themselves and others, for those wondering. So... awesome all around.

I really don't feel the need to go around "policing" other men. The worst that this guy in the video can be accused of is being impolite and socially awkward.

 

[presence]

Please reserve your spammy nonsense for your own topics. At least you didn't use your obnoxious center-justified format this time.

I'll tie it together as it seems the commentary to An Allegory of Vanity, Showing Truth Personified was misunderstood the first time through:

The skull is the cat caller.
The mirror is the video production.
The folio is the video transcription.
The sumptious garb is the skin tight black clothing.
The scales are the number of times in a day she was called.
Death is the whistling mating call.
Vanity cajoled 'Hollaback' to miss the curious pathos of the other character.

I would be more than willing to bet no one here is actually going to read your post.

I'll take that bet.

 

[jmdrake]

I haven't watched the video and don't plan on it. I'll assume the worst and guess that these guys did everything short of grabbing on the woman. Question for all of the women angry at their behavior. What's your solution? I assume, without reading the entire thread, that nobody's for some new sexual harassment law that applies to complete strangers walking on the street. So is it "talk about it so men feel really really bad and never try this in real life? Well guess what? The vast majority of men aren't going to do this. In fact if you are very attractive (I wouldn't put this actress in the very attractive category), most decent men aren't going to hit on you even if you want them to, and even if the situation is "appropriate". And why do some guys persist in trying? The same reason Nigerians send out scam emails and why politicians do robocalls. Because as irritating as it may be, it works enough of the time for guys to decide it's worth it.

As a man, I've been hit on a handful of times. Twice by gay men (irritating but I didn't freak out about it) and several times by women. Speaking for the men of the world, women if you see what you like feel free to hit on us. It will make our jobs easier.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

That's all anecdotal. And I doubt the goal was to stigmatize the behavior. The behavior is already stigmatized. They didn't target the demographic that usually does this and reach out to schools to educate kids on this behavior. They just put it out there to shame men in general for what is inherently a "man problem."

Go ahead, keep confirming that you are obtuse - the jury's still out on whether you are deliberately so or if you can't help it, though. The most stunning thing is that your own defensive behavior perfectly illustrates the need to have a chat as a society about this issue... like what you so enthusiastically applauded chudrocks for doing. So reading your posts, any reasonable person is left scratching his/her head. It is a problem that as jonhowe and chud illustrated, is capable of being vastly improved if not completely solved. I am confident that neither of these two men, or many of the other men on this topic with sympathetic attitudes, take umbrage to the suggestion that attitudes toward this need to change.

Men who are unsympathetic or hostile to women's concerns are being "shamed" because there are already many awesome ones that understand why this is unacceptable. So if you aren't willing to muster the effort to be a decent person, (you are not despite your claims) kindly move on.

 

[kahless]

No, of course there isn't. I'm saying that when I was in college and found myself walking near a lone young woman, I did what I could to make her feel like she was NOT in danger. I did the opposite of the guy in the video, in other words.

+1

He is completely doing the right thing here though, and should be applauded for that. Personally it puts me at ease when men do that. Even brief eye contact and a smile or nod will do enough to show you aren't a threat. This is exactly the sort of thing people discuss when they discuss what men can do to police themselves and others, for those wondering. So... awesome all around.

I agree.

 

[specsaregood]

I haven't watched the video and don't plan on it. I'll assume the worst and guess that these guys did everything short of grabbing on the woman.

you should watch it then. It is only 2 minutes long and seriousy isn't even close to what one would assume is the worst. The vast majority of them are just greeting her and saying the equivalent of hello.

 

[jmdrake]

LOL. As a black man living in Tennessee right after Obama got elected I had white people coming up to me and giving me high fives and saying "We did it!" Not sure what that's supposed to mean.

 

[jmdrake]

He is completely doing the right thing here though, and should be applauded for that. Personally it puts me at ease when men do that. Even brief eye contact and a smile or nod will do enough to show you aren't a threat. This is exactly the sort of thing people discuss when they discuss what men can do to police themselves and others, for those wondering. So... awesome all around.

Hmmmm.....the woman in the video in the OP complained about "winks and smiles". So it seems she would have seen chudrockz as a threat even for doing that. I think that's the problem with some of these "stop sexual harassment/assault" campaigns. They lump everything together.

 

[jmdrake]

you should watch it then. It is only 2 minutes long and seriousy isn't even close to what one would assume is the worst. The vast majority of them are just greeting her and saying the equivalent of hello.

Okay. Watched it. Yeah, some of what she noted as "harassment" couldn't be honestly called that. But maybe it's a New York thing. I live in the south and people here often acknowledge strangers with small talk as they pass each other on the sidewalk. If every time some stranger says "Good evening" that's a "cat call" then I've been hit on much more than I realize.

 

[dannno]

Because as irritating as it may be, it works enough of the time for guys to decide it's worth it.

Yep, as I said before it's not really my style but it does work for guys sometimes so some women do in fact like it and I think it is really mean and shallow to judge these guys.. They're basically saying that they are less visually appealing and so there is no way that their personality will ever be able to make up for that fact and no beautiful woman will ever find beauty in their souls so they should just mind their own business rather than let their personalities shine through.

Some women like guys who are outgoing and flatter them. If you don't like it, then say or at least show you aren't interested.. to let the guy just walk next to you for 5 minutes and smile the whole time then complain about it is dumb.

 

[Rothbardian Girl]

Hmmmm.....the woman in the video in the OP complained about "winks and smiles". So it seems she would have seen chudrockz as a threat even for doing that. I think that's the problem with some of these "stop sexual harassment/assault" campaigns. They lump everything together.

I personally did not watch the video and do not plan on doing so because I am generally skeptical of things that go viral. However, I am still prepared to counter the poor arguments and callous disregard for fellow humans that inevitably spring up on topics like this one. I see the video as a good thing in that it spurs the conversation about these issues. Re: your actual point, some smiles do come off as lecherous rather than friendly; the same goes for winks, and I don't think it's nitpicky or an overreaction at all to mention that there is some nuance involved with both.

Yep, as I said before it's not really my style but it does work for guys sometimes so some women do in fact like it and I think it is really mean and shallow to judge these guys.. They're basically saying that they are less visually appealing and so there is no way that their personality will ever be able to make up for that fact and no beautiful woman will ever find beauty in their souls so they should just mind their own business rather than let their personalities shine through.

Some women like guys who are outgoing and flatter them. If you don't like it, then say or at least show you aren't interested.. to let the guy just walk next to you for 5 minutes and smile the whole time then complain about it is dumb.

Again, you can't just assume that women like it because it works. If a woman gives in as a defense mechanism, that most certainly doesn't mean she likes the tactic. Nor does giving a phone number, assuming it's not made-up, necessarily mean the woman actually approved of being catcalled - I've given my number out plenty of times and then ignored any texts or calls (not to catcallers, but in analogous situations). This isn't "mixed signals," this is how to get rid of someone bothersome literally without coming off as "too mean" for a woman (see, even I feel the pressure to act based on stereotypes!). There's also the completely separate issue of some men drastically misreading intentions in the first place. The fact remains that catcalling specifically has a really low success rate.

 

[specsaregood]

Okay. Watched it. Yeah, some of what she noted as "harassment" couldn't be honestly called that. But maybe it's a New York thing. I live in the south and people here often acknowledge strangers with small talk as they pass each other on the sidewalk. If every time some stranger says "Good evening" that's a "cat call" then I've been hit on much more than I realize.

Yeah, much of what I saw was just polite behavior. I mean I grew in the Midwest where you acknowledged other people you passed on the street. Sure there were a couple creepers, but they were in the minority.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Go ahead, keep confirming that you are obtuse - the jury's still out on whether you are deliberately so or if you can't help it, though. The most stunning thing is that your own defensive behavior perfectly illustrates the need to have a chat as a society about this issue... like what you so enthusiastically applauded chudrocks for doing. So reading your posts, any reasonable person is left scratching his/her head. It is a problem that as jonhowe and chud illustrated, is capable of being vastly improved if not completely solved. I am confident that neither of these two men, or many of the other men on this topic with sympathetic attitudes, take umbrage to the suggestion that attitudes toward this need to change.

Men who are unsympathetic or hostile to women's concerns are being "shamed" because there are already many awesome ones that understand why this is unacceptable. So if you aren't willing to muster the effort to be a decent person, (you are not despite your claims) kindly move on.

Oh, I get it. You're having trouble reconciling the fact that I don't think this is a big deal with the fact that I severely disdain people who mistreat women. It's called cognitive dissonance. But the two are not incompatible, so maybe you should work on that little misconception first.

Tell me, what would make me a decent person? I've already stated that I wouldn't approve of my friends doing this and I would tell them so. What else am I supposed to do to be "decent" in your eyes?

 

[pessimist]

 

[pessimist]

 

[jmdrake]

I personally did not watch the video and do not plan on doing so because I am generally skeptical of things that go viral. However, I am still prepared to counter the poor arguments and callous disregard for fellow humans that inevitably spring up on topics like this one. I see the video as a good thing in that it spurs the conversation about these issues. Re: your actual point, some smiles do come off as lecherous rather than friendly; the same goes for winks, and I don't think it's nitpicky or an overreaction at all to mention that there is some nuance involved with both.

Okay. But isn't it fair to say that someone's innocent wink that's meant to be reassuring could be misconstrued by some perceived harassment victim? In the video the woman lumped everything together. There was no "nuance". Yeah walking beside a woman and staring her down is lecherous. But to get the "harassment" numbers up the video included a lot a arguably non lecherous behavior. That's the problem with it.

 

[JK/SEA]

gay guys can be considered Alpha males....

 

[Deborah K]

If that video is the definition of harassment, then we're in big trouble. The "outta be a law" types will eat this up and spit out another version of "hate crime" legislation.

I'm betting we'll see more of this kind of thing as Hitlery goes on the campaign trail. "War on women" is already the new mantra. Heck, they're laying the groundwork now with this stupid ass video, and the one with the trashy little girls. And the answer will be a LIBERAL woman for Prez.

 

[dannno]

Again, you can't just assume that women like it because it works. If a woman gives in as a defense mechanism, that most certainly doesn't mean she likes the tactic. Nor does giving a phone number, assuming it's not made-up, necessarily mean the woman actually approved of being catcalled

You're wrong, a lot of women like getting that type of attention. That's just how it is, take it up with them. It may be a minority of women, they may not like EVERY guy cat calling them, but that may be their preferred method of pickup from people who they find attractive because it shows initiative, which is something they find attractive.

When I say it 'works' for some guys, I don't mean it worked because they got a phone number, I mean it worked because they got laid which is the goal.

 

[Philhelm]

Well, then we have a different perception. I have the image of the ripped dudes in tribal tattoos who walk around in "I do alpha male shit" t-shirts, or the frat boy douche smashing beer bottles over his head, or Brock Lesnar.

I've always thought an 'alpha' was a man trying to exert his dominance over weaker men as part of some mating ritual.

You are describing assholes. Granted, sometimes assholes can be alpha, but that isn't a requirement. Also, a man does not need to have high physical strength or good looks in order to be alpha, since it's primarily mental, although those traits can certainly help. I think it's more of a case in which men who are physically imposing, or are attractive and used to being validated by women's acceptance, naturally tend to be more confident. Also, women want to be dominated (please note: not abused). In fact, women constantly test men in order to ensure their fitness as a leader, protector, and provider. This is why women sometimes act like spoiled children or creat conflict seemingly out of nowhere. Failure to pass these tests often results in a dead bedroom situation and/or divorce. A woman does not want to wear the pants.

duh! Any man with high status is going to get a more favorable reaction from women than the average Joe. Any good looking guy is going to get a more favorable reaction on first glance. What is your point?

Since you equated asshole with alpha, it seemed necessary to include.

This is absurd. You are are VASTLY underestimating the power of personality. I am not sure what you mean by "acting weak" but many of these smart, funny dudes have sociopathic wit and charm, who know how to 'turn women on'. I have no idea what you're talking about here.

Personality does help. Being smart, funny, or what have you are good traits, but those aren't the traits that get a woman's panties wet; rather they are traits to supplement the alpha. Here are examples of acting weak that will lose points with women: shyness, nervousness, acting as though the woman is the prize (a man's mindset should be that he is the prize, being a doormat, no ambition, no goals, poor leadership, etc.

An ugly, glib, car salesman type well versed in the art of persuasion can get laid pretty much any time he wants to by manipulating and conning dumb women. Is he alpha?

If he's an ugly car salesman and only gets laid by lying, then he probably isn't an alpha male.

Yeah, I must have a different view of the "alpha male", but GOOD LOOKS has nothing to do with alpha or beta. There are a shit load of pretty boys who don't "do alpha male shit" or are even particularly masculine, but they can get laid any time they want because they're "hot".

Wow! Women like hot guys, like men like hot women? Who would have thought?

Women do like hot guys, but not to the extent that men do. Women put more emphasis on money/status/confidence in addition to looks. If a woman is pretty, broke, unemployed, and shy, she will have no problems getting laid since she is pretty. If a man is good-looking, broke, unemployed, and shy, he may get laid because of his good looks, but it won't be nearly as easy for him and it will likely not result in a long-term relationship.