Vets have broken down barricades at Lincoln Memorial and are carrying them to the White House

[AuH20]

Round 2: Please do something rash. Let that inner pig just flow out!

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/14/snit-...up-at-wwii-memorial-a-simple-suggestion-pics/

 

[Cutlerzzz]

No, not at all. But I don't have an issue with self-defense, and I truly believe that (up until Vietnam) veterans really believed they were fighting for our freedoms and defending our country. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about the attack on Pearl Harbor that led to our involvement in WWII, but as the Internet didn't exist in 1941, those people probably were not aware of the evidence that suggests FDR allowed that attack to happen...and they were worried that Japanese forces might go on to California next and then from there, who knows? They really believed they were defending the U.S. And, if what they believe is true, I have no problem with defense operations under those circumstances. It IS regrettable, but necessary.

Up until Vietnam, I tend to think most Americans viewed our military involvements that way.

Do you have any Vietnam or WWII vets in your family, FF? I believe they would be better qualified to answer that question than I am. I suggest that maybe you should have a discussion about this with them.

The Wars between 1812 (which was still wrong) and Vietnam had absolutely nothing to do with defending the US. The US Mexican War was a land grab, the Civil War was to consolidate federal power, the Spainish American war was a land grab, the Banana Wars were for corporate interests, thr Philippines war was a blatant land grab, both World Wars were fought for corporate interests, and the Korean War was fought to protect another county.

Some of the wars involved the government taking away freedoms or committing acts of brutality that they have not in any war since. They put entire Philipino villages in concentration camps before burning their cities to the ground (killing one million of the Philippines seven million people in the process). They considered the Indians to be less than human and gave them blankets with small pox before forcing them off their land or killing them. Blocking entire countries, cities, or any area that might have enemies off from any food was considered standard during many of these wars. Bombing, starving, or destroying civilian targets with no military personal was considered legit up until recently.

During wars before Vietnam there were numerous occasions where freedom of speech and freedom of the press were out right taken away, the federal draft was standard during war time in the first half of the 20th century, war protesters would be beaten, and "the greatest generation" had no qualms with putting tens of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration camps because they had slanted eyes.

The government and their wars have been evil from the start. Fighting these wars has also been wrong from the beginning and there is no excuse for it. Before Vietnam War protests, the government would even conduct wars more brutally and savagely then they do today.

 

[Carlybee]

The vietnam war had unprecedented tv coverage. They actually showed the body bags and coffins. Prior to that most war coverage was on the radio and propagandized shorts in the movie theaters. No one really had the tools to become really cognizant before then. Before then serving literally meant serving your country regardless of what was really happening and if you didnt serve, unless you had a legitimate reason, you were considered a coward and in some instances a traitor.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

..

 

[Demigod]

Visuals are not good for President Stompyfeet today.

I see your police still uses horses,I saw a soldier( family friend ) once take down a cop on a horse during protests.He took the horse by the straps and when the horse rose with his front legs he hit him full force with his booth in the stomach ,the horse turned and fell to the ground.Now he was a tough guy and a heavy drunk so trying it would not be advised.Also molotovs are a a good way of dispersing cops on horses.

 

[Christian Liberty]

What I meant was, we all have our own cross to bear and I hope that isn't the one you are required to bear. I hope you never find the need to dodge the draft.

OK, I hope I don't either.

FF,

Are you signed up for "selective service" or whatever they're calling it?

I had to for financial aid*, so yes. If there was actually a draft I don't see why it would matter, I'd be an outlaw at that point regardless of whether I had signed up or not.

*I do not believe finaid should exist.

You're implying anyone else does?

I thought it was plainly apparent how the mention of RP's military service related to the rest of my post. Would you like me to draw you a map with crayons and construction paper next time?

Ron Paul is my hero and I admire him more than anyone else that I know of who has been in politics at any time ever. Even still, he too was responsible for any actions he took in the military. Considering what we know of Ron, I think he learned something about the wickedness of war from being in the military, which is a good thing as well.

My issue with all of this isn't that they're veterans though. My issue with all of this is that I still don't believe there's any genuine opposition to government tyranny. It seems alot like the kind of people who hate Obama because he doesn't support Israel and the Military enough sort of "resistance."

The Wars between 1812 (which was still wrong) and Vietnam had absolutely nothing to do with defending the US. The US Mexican War was a land grab, the Civil War was to consolidate federal power, the Spainish American war was a land grab, the Banana Wars were for corporate interests, thr Philippines war was a blatant land grab, both World Wars were fought for corporate interests, and the Korean War was fought to protect another county.

Why was 1812 wrong? I mean, I get that it might have been foolhardy, but ultimately, if another nation is taking your ships and enslaving your people, I see absolutely nothing wrong, morally, with defending yourself to the fullest.

The American Revolution and 1812 were both defensive. On the Confederate end, the Civil War was also defensive.

Some of the wars involved the government taking away freedoms or committing acts of brutality that they have not in any war since. They put entire Philipino villages in concentration camps before burning their cities to the ground (killing one million of the Philippines seven million people in the process). They considered the Indians to be less than human and gave them blankets with small pox before forcing them off their land or killing them. Blocking entire countries, cities, or any area that might have enemies off from any food was considered standard during many of these wars. Bombing, starving, or destroying civilian targets with no military personal was considered legit up until recently.

During wars before Vietnam there were numerous occasions where freedom of speech and freedom of the press were out right taken away, the federal draft was standard during war time in the first half of the 20th century, war protesters would be beaten, and "the greatest generation" had no qualms with putting tens of thousands of Japanese Americans in concentration camps because they had slanted eyes.

The government and their wars have been evil from the start. Fighting these wars has also been wrong from the beginning and there is no excuse for it. Before Vietnam War protests, the government would even conduct wars more brutally and savagely then they do today.

I agree.

The vietnam war had unprecedented tv coverage. They actually showed the body bags and coffins. Prior to that most war coverage was on the radio and propagandized shorts in the movie theaters. No one really had the tools to become really cognizant before then. Before then serving literally meant serving your country regardless of what was really happening and if you didnt serve, unless you had a legitimate reason, you were considered a coward and in some instances a traitor.

I get that that's a reason, but is it really an excuse?

 

[Christian Liberty]

You are making the choice to fund the military instead of "leaving the country, going to prison, or standing your ground and forcing them to kill you". When you die, you know where you're going.

First of all, if I were going to become a tax resister, I wouldn't loudly post that I was doing so over the internet.

Second of all, let's forget government for a moment and go with bank robbers.

Person A has a gun pointed at him by bank robbers, who threaten to kill him if he does not open his bank's safe filled with cash. In order to avoid being killed, Person A opens his safe and gives the robbers the money they want. The robbers proceed to rob another bank. When asked by someone to give account for his actions, he says "You know I'm not a big fan of bank robbers, but its just money, I decided I would rather submit to their thuggish crime than let them kill me.

Person B is confronted at gunpoint and told that if he doesn't join the gang of bank robbers, they will kill him. In order to avoid being killed, Person B joins the robber gang. Under orders from the gang, he then proceeds to rob another bank at gunpoint. When the banker refuses to open his safe, Person B kills him. When asked to give account for his actions, he says "Sorry, killing isn't really my thing, but I was just following orders! Why won't you call me a hero now, after all, I courageously defended my brothers in arms by killing the banker who might otherwise have threatened them."

Anyone who cannot understand the differences between these statements is an idiot!

Person A is a victim, while Person B is a criminal. There might be some mitigating factors in Person B's case, but he's still a criminal. Person A is a victim. If you can't see the difference I don't know what to tell you.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

First of all, if I were going to become a tax resister, I wouldn't loudly post that I was doing so over the internet.

Yet you don't hesitate to announce your conspiracy to dodge the draft?

Are taxpayers going to hell for making the choice to fund "murder", or aren't they? Please clarify?

Anyone who cannot understand the differences between these statements is an idiot!...

If you can't see the difference I don't know what to tell you.

By "idiot", you mean people who can't see a moral distinction which exists only in your "own brain, or majority opinion (neither of which actually mean anything)"? A moral distinction with no basis in "absolute morality" ("the authority of the Bible")? A moral distinction which you've constructed out of thin air to justify your hypocrisy and wickedness?

 

[Christian Liberty]

Yet you don't hesitate to announce your conspiracy to dodge the draft?

I already explained to you why the two situations are different.

Are taxpayers going to hell for making the choice to fund "murder", or aren't they? Please clarify?

Going to Hell? Everyone will go to Hell for their sins unless they believe the gospel conditioned on Christ's blood sacrificed for their sins. Those who do believe will be saved. Regardless of what sins you've committed. I think your real question is whether paying taxes is a sin. No, I see no indication in scripture that paying taxes is a sin.

By "idiot", you mean people who can't see a moral distinction which exists only in your "own brain, or majority opinion (neither of which actually mean anything)"? A moral distinction with no basis in "absolute morality" ("the authority of the Bible")? A moral distinction which you've constructed out of thin air to justify your hypocrisy and wickedness?

Why do you keep linking to my posts? What are you babbling on about?

 

[cajuncocoa]

The vietnam war had unprecedented tv coverage. They actually showed the body bags and coffins. Prior to that most war coverage was on the radio and propagandized shorts in the movie theaters. No one really had the tools to become really cognizant before then. Before then serving literally meant serving your country regardless of what was really happening and if you didnt serve, unless you had a legitimate reason, you were considered a coward and in some instances a traitor.

^^This.

@FF: Also keep in mind....they drafted 18 year olds, not fully-mature adults. I know you're 18, but you have an advantage over 18 year olds of my generation; you have the Internet. The vast amount of knowledge available to you was not available to us, literally at your fingertips. We had only the mainstream media, just as biased then as it is today...and whatever our local library had available.

I get that that's a reason, but is it really an excuse?

Who is going to tell you differently? Your school? Your parents? Your church? You and I have lamented before that even our own churches worship the military too much. Where is the average kid going to learn that killing people in a foreign land is WRONG if even his church is on board?

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

I already explained to you why the two situations are different.

I missed the part where you explained why you'd loudly announce your intent to dodge the draft, but not loudly announce your intent to evade taxes?

First of all, if I were going to become a tax resister, I wouldn't loudly post that I was doing so over the internet.

Why wouldn't you?

I see no indication in scripture that paying taxes [that fund the military] is a sin.

You assume that scripture's proscription of murder doesn't apply to the funding of the military?

Why do you keep linking to my posts? What are you babbling on about?

By "babbling", you mean quoting you?

 

[Christian Liberty]

^^This.

@FF: Also keep in mind....they drafted 18 year olds, not fully-mature adults. I know you're 18, but you have an advantage over 18 year olds of my generation; you have the Internet. The vast amount of knowledge available to you was not available to us, literally at our fingertips. We had only the mainstream media, just as biased then as it is today...and whatever our local library had available.Who is going to tell you differently? Your school? Your parents? Your church? You and I have lamented before that even our own churches worship the military too much. Where is the average kid going to learn that killing people in a foreign land is WRONG if even his church is on board?

I don't know. Not that its something to get excited over, but at the same time, it will glorify God when those who lead our children astray are judged.

One of my youth leaders, a man I respect other than this, tried to argue Romans 13 at me when I said I would never submit to a draft. I asked what he would say if the government commanded some woman in the church to have an abortion. I can't remember what his response was but I feel like it was something to the effect of "Its different."

I happen to believe that he is saved but confused, but even still, he'll have to give an account for why he even unknowingly tried to lead a teen in his youth group astray.

And how many more... who really do flat out worship the military and not Christ, who are not saved yet profess to be Christians... I believe it will likely be better for Sodom on judgment day than for them.

With regards to parents.. my children will definitely be taught differently. I think I've changed my parents opinions on this somewhat as well.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I missed the part where you explained why you'd loudly announce your intent to dodge the draft, but not loudly announce your intent to evade taxes?

Well, for one thing, its not illegal for me to state that I would dodge a hypothetical draft. If there actually were a draft I would still resist, but I wouldn't continue saying so on the internet to make it easier for them to catch me

You assume that scripture's proscription of murder doesn't apply to the funding of murder?

I assume that being a victim of a bank robbery doesn't make you responsible for future bank robberies, and that what you're doing is blaming the victim.

 

[cajuncocoa]

I don't know. Not that its something to get excited over, but at the same time, it will glorify God when those who lead our children astray are judged.

One of my youth leaders, a man I respect other than this, tried to argue Romans 13 at me when I said I would never submit to a draft. I asked what he would say if the government commanded some woman in the church to have an abortion. I can't remember what his response was but I feel like it was something to the effect of "Its different."

I happen to believe that he is saved but confused, but even still, he'll have to give an account for why he even unknowingly tried to lead a teen in his youth group astray.

And how many more... who really do flat out worship the military and not Christ, who are not saved yet profess to be Christians... I believe it will likely be better for Sodom on judgment day than for them.

With regards to parents.. my children will definitely be taught differently. I think I've changed my parents opinions on this somewhat as well.

As I have mine. I wish I had the opportunity to discuss these issues with my own parents who were from the WWII generation. I wonder if their minds could be changed. I'll never know.

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

I assume that being a victim of a bank robbery doesn't make you responsible for future bank robberies, and that what you're doing is blaming the victim.

But you also assume that being a victim of kidnapping (the draft) does make one responsible, and what you're doing is blaming the kidnapping victim?

 

[cajuncocoa]

Well, for one thing, its not illegal for me to state that I would dodge a hypothetical draft. If there actually were a draft I would still resist, but I wouldn't continue saying so on the internet to make it easier for them to catch me

LOL....not to pull this further off-topic, but you've already said it many times. If they re-instated the draft, it wouldn't matter that you wouldn't continue to say it. You've said it enough times for them to hunt you down already.

As long as we're a little off-topic, how do you feel about paying taxes for abortions under Obamacare?

 

[Christian Liberty]

But you also assume that being a victim of kidnapping (the draft) does make you responsible, and what you're doing is blaming the kidnapping victim?

False equivolence.

Wow... I thought our trolls were all beltway types. I didn't expect to see them accusing me of being insufficiently radical

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

how do you feel about paying taxes for abortions under Obamacare?

Yes how does he feel about that?

 

[Cap]

^^This.

@FF: Also keep in mind....they drafted 18 year olds, not fully-mature adults. I know you're 18, but you have an advantage over 18 year olds of my generation; you have the Internet. The vast amount of knowledge available to you was not available to us, literally at our fingertips. We had only the mainstream media, just as biased then as it is today...and whatever our local library had available.Who is going to tell you differently? Your school? Your parents? Your church? You and I have lamented before that even our own churches worship the military too much. Where is the average kid going to learn that killing people in a foreign land is WRONG if even his church is on board?

Unless you were there, such as we were Cajun, your explanation is probably falling on deaf ears. It was much easier to brainwash people back when we were kids. Looking back, the propaganda was always thick with what the government wanted the people to hear. War movies were a common staple with America playing the hero role. Cowboy and Indian flicks seemed to always depict the Indians as nothing more than rabid dogs. War in itself, was often romanticized. You could say that Hollywood sure did their part in the propaganda campaign. The nightly news had the most trusted man (Walter Cronkite) in America telling us what we should be outraged at and what to think (that still pisses me off to this day). Basically, we didn't know any better.

Only after the war protests started to catch fire, did any of the ugliness surface. I always maintained that if the internet was around then, Vietnam would probably never have happened or certainly would have been over much quicker. The biggest tool that we had to waking up people back then was our music. There were some very powerful songs such as "Ohio" (Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young) and “Fortunate Son” (CCR) to name just a couple.

Totally different times back then, it was really hard to go against the mindset of "mom and apple pie". Especially when virtually everyone you came in contact with growing up, touted the government's talking points. Face it, the government did a fabulous job of selling their shit, a lot of people were fooled and honestly thought they were preserving their's and their families well being in going off to war. They were preserving mom and apple pie. Often people didn't wake up until it was to late and they were in the midst of death. We could have used Ron Paul back then, so many thousands of lives could have been saved.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Unless you were there, such as we were Cajun, your explanation is probably falling on deaf ears. It was much easier to brainwash people back when we were kids. Looking back, the propaganda was always thick with what the government wanted the people to hear. War movies were a common staple with America playing the hero role. Cowboy and Indian flicks seemed to always depict the Indians as nothing more than rabid dogs. War in itself, was often romanticized. You could say that Hollywood sure did their part in the propaganda campaign. The nightly news had the most trusted man (Walter Cronkite) in America telling us what we should be outraged at and what to think (that still pisses me off to this day). Basically, we didn't know any better.

Only after the war protests started to catch fire, did any of the ugliness surface. I always maintained that if the internet was around then, Vietnam would probably never have happened or certainly would have been over much quicker. The biggest tool that we had to waking up people back then was our music. There were some very powerful songs such as "Ohio" (Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young) and “Fortunate Son” (CCR) to name just a couple.

Totally different times back then, it was really hard to go against the mindset of "mom and apple pie". Especially when virtually everyone you came in contact with growing up, touted the government's talking points. Face it, the government did a fabulous job of selling their shit, a lot of people were fooled and honestly thought they were preserving their's and their families well being in going off to war. They were preserving mom and apple pie. Often people didn't wake up until it was to late and they were in the midst of death. We could have used Ron Paul back then, so many thousands of lives could have been saved.

Oh, and they did rail and wring their hands over our music, too! +rep for an insightful post...yep, you had to be there.