Vets have broken down barricades at Lincoln Memorial and are carrying them to the White House

[fr33]

I don't believe in going around and calling them that either.

But you are doing that on this forum. You are using the anonymity provided by the internet to escape the consequences you might suffer in doing it face to face. I do it too, just not as much.

 

[Cutlerzzz]

Once again, the greatest generation shows us how it's done. One more time before the clock runs out on em.

Greatest at what?

 

[Carlybee]

OK:

1. The last war that America has been in that I think was in any sense justified was 1812. I don't defend either World War. So I don't think there's a person living today who TRULY fought in an "honorable" war. Ultimately, justifying what happened in WWII comes down to utilitarianism and preemption. America murdered a LOT of people in that war, far more than were killed in Iraq. Even if you view the German and Japanese Military as legitimate targets because Japan attacked us after we provokd them, the killing of civilians in Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagisaki, etc. is no better than murder.

2. Since when has the military been treated horribly when they've returned? For every person like me there are a thousand who will call them "heroes" and say they "fought for our freedom." Vietnam vets were spit on when they returned. Have you seen how many end up homeless nowadays? The ones who don't commit suicide because the military pumped them full of anti-depressants? VA Hospitals treat them like cattle. They get screwed out of their benefits.

3. I'm not saying you have to condemn them, although I do, I don't believe ignorance or wicked philosophy is an excuse (I really don't expect any better out of unbelievers, but I find the fact that CHRISTIANS support this kind of stuff absolutely disgusting.) I think its possible not to condemn them while still thinking its ridiculous to pretend like people getting ticked off that their precious memorials are blocked off has anything to do with real liberty. For some of those people, the memorials represent memories and friends who lost their lives. Some people have to have something to hold onto and not everyone understands the true concepts of liberty.

4. We're never going to "Get through to people." Most people are immoral and don't care. Most people have a wicked worldview. And if we did get through to them, and by "we" I mean the real liberty movement, not the phony "small government but law and order" types, would they join at all? Or do you mean something more like "Had the liberty philosophy presented to them?" Does that mean we stop trying?

It's not always black and white

 

[Christian Liberty]

But you are doing that on this forum. You are using the anonymity provided by the internet to escape the consequences you might suffer in doing it face to face. I do it too, just not as much.

Although I sometimes fail at it, there's some room for tact in real life.

We're smart enough here that we shouldn't have to beat around the bush. We know better.

I wouldn't walk up to a veteran and tell him he was a killer. First of all, I don't know if he is or not.

I would, however, make a general statement that those who go overseas to kill other people are murderers.

 

[fr33]

There's nothing inherently even wrong with "Using tyranny to your advantage." It depends on what you did.

See here:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/03/walter-e-block/may-a-libertarian-take-money-from-the-government/

That's how we justify the things we do but it's really just an attempt to avoid looking ourselves in the mirror. As soon as the govt started subsidizing farmers, people across the nation were forced to abandoned their way of life and move to the murder-centers known as cities. You taking part in it ruined people's lives.

I didn't go to college but I'm indentured to pay for colleges so that people can follow Walter Block's advice and steal from me.

Act as high and mighty as you want, but you too are the boot of tyranny stomping on people no matter how you try to justify it.

I've heard the comment, and I have no issue with it. They aren't the same situation.

Ron Paul was pointing out, correctly, that the soldiers themselves are not nearly as supportive of putting the rest of the world under occupation and waging war everywhere as the chickenhawks are. I post the "You Like Ron Paul, Except on Foreign Policy" video all the time, despite objecting to the first five seconds of it. I agree that for Ron Paul to bash the military would likely have been stupid. He was running for Commander in Chief. And he ran on a platform of implementing almost completely 100% pure libertarianism eventually.

This is very different than what Ron Paul said. This is about Boobus exercizing "Civil disobedience" because government is insufficiently cooperative with worship of America. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with legitimate opposition to "Tyranny" for most of these people. Would someone who legitimately held a deep seated opposition to tyranny really want to fawn over the memorials anyways?

Different issues.

You are more concerned with how people feel about nationalist monuments than how the people hired to fight curent wars are carrying out their orders. That was a pathetic attempt to make it different issues but that dog won't hunt.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Does that mean we stop trying?

Absolutely not. I'm just saying that if you're waiting for some hypothetical future where everyone "gets it" to condemn those who fight for the regime, it ain't happening.

Vietnam vets were spit on when they returned. Have you seen how many end up homeless nowadays? The ones who don't commit suicide because the military pumped them full of anti-depressants? VA Hospitals treat them like cattle. They get screwed out of their benefits.

OK, I have a couple questions here.

First of all, how can they be "screwed out of their benefits?" Their benefits are paid for by compulsory taxation. So similar to those on social security, that's a mythical entitlement, not a real one (Unless you're a gradualist, as Ron Paul is, which would explain your comment. I take an absolutist/radical position as I'm sure you'd guess.)

Second of all, while I certainly don't condone seeing them get spit on or "Treated like Cattle" I feel like the Golden Rule sort of comes into play here. They shouldn't have gone and killed people overseas. I really don't see it as any better than if a mafia member did the exact same things to another "Family" for his.

 

[AFPVet]

Do you think that people who are ticked off because they aren't able to genuflect before their memorial of choice are actually pro-liberty just because they're disobeying this particular order?

I think it's the totality of the circumstances. I don't believe they 'kneel' to these monuments, but they respect their fallen brothers. I do believe that, like a bear in hibernation, it takes a lot of wake it up, but once you do....

 

[better-dead-than-fed]

Most soldiers probably haven't had occasion to analyze the mechanics of liberty like people on this forum. The status quo venerates people for merely enlisting and following orders, and that is hazardous, so I appreciate FreedomFanatic's effort to deter aggression. Soldiers in my experience have felt they were defending liberty. Even if they were mistaken, at least they recognized the value of liberty. If liberty required forceful resistance against militarized police and the unconstitutional regime that commanded them, the military itself would be a crucial ally to the liberty movement.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

That's how we justify the things we do but it's really just an attempt to avoid looking ourselves in the mirror. As soon as the govt started subsidizing farmers, people across the nation were forced to abandoned their way of life and move to the murder-centers known as cities. You taking part in it ruined people's lives.

I didn't go to college but I'm indentured to pay for colleges so that people can follow Walter Block's advice and steal from me.

Act as high and mighty as you want, but you too are the boot of tyranny stomping on people no matter how you try to justify it.

Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I think it's the totality of the circumstances. I don't believe they 'kneel' to these monuments, but they respect their fallen brothers. I do believe that, like a bear in hibernation, it takes a lot of wake it up, but once you do....

I really hope you're right that they are actually waking up...

I don't expect someone who wakes up to instantly be a perfect ancap either. It took me three years, and I doubt my ideology is perfectly consistent even now. I don't expect them, for instance, to instantly realize the problem with pledging the US flag, or stuff like that. I just hope its actually real. I fear that if its something like this that ticked them off, they'll be content little drones again once we get a big government Republican into office.

 

[Christian Liberty]

Most soldiers probably haven't had occasion to analyze the mechanics of liberty like people on this forum. The status quo venerates people for merely enlisting and following orders, and that is hazardous, so I appreciate FreedomFanatic's effort to deter aggression. Soldiers in my experience have felt they were defending liberty. Even if they were mistaken, at least they recognized the value of liberty. If liberty required forceful resistance against militarized police and the unconstitutional regime that commanded them, the military itself would be a crucial ally to the liberty movement.

I can't imagine people who are conditioned to follow orders to all the sudden oppose their government en masse. But if they did so, I would ABSOLUTELY support them.

Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say.

How is the income tax voluntary?

I honestly don't think I've ever heard a minarchist say "Love it or leave it." If they're worth their salt they don't "Love it" right now either.

Block's argument is correct. I take student aid, while at the same time opposing the concept. Taking money from the thieves is not stealing.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say.

Do you pay the income tax?

It's not as voluntary as some make it out to be.

For one, I am not a tax attorney. For two, I don't have years and thousands of dollars to tie up in litigation procedures. For three, when my poor ass is found guilty, as as sure as the sun rises I would be; the years don't sound appealing.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Block's argument is correct. I take student aid, while at the same time opposing the concept. Taking money from the thieves is not stealing.

That is some awful fine mental gymnastics you did there. Bravo. Here's the scenario, a robber robs a person on the street. You know or even watch the robbery occur. The robber says, have some money. (hell, the robber even hopes to gain your loyalty with it.. whether he does or not being besides the point) You taking the money you know full well isn't yours, that you know full well was taken from someone, is immoral. You can spice it up however you wish to make yourself feel better but honestly having honesty towards yourself is the best enlightenment.

The economics of being an indentured servant aside. (i.e. you will end up forever indebted)

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Do you pay the income tax?

It's not as voluntary as some make it out to be.

For one, I am not a tax attorney. For two, I don't have years and thousands of dollars to tie up in litigation procedures. For three, when my poor ass is found guilty, as as sure as the sun rises I would be; the years don't sound appealing.

I don't make enough to be taxed. Fucking FED, regime that destroyed the economy, etc.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say.

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my earlier post; The income tax isn't going towards Pell Grants and Stafford Loans.

Even if one didn't pay for another's education directly with the income tax, indirectly through an inflationary deception they are. (and furthermore they have no say in the matter)

 

[heavenlyboy34]

How is the income tax voluntary?

I don't understand all the details of it yet, but danke has provided interesting tidbits in various threads.

I honestly don't think I've ever heard a minarchist say "Love it or leave it." If they're worth their salt they don't "Love it" right now either.

I have. And even those who don't say it tacitly when they insist their constitution be forced on everyone, consenting or not.

Block's argument is correct. I take student aid, while at the same time opposing the concept. Taking money from the thieves is not stealing.

I agree. I'm surprised to find opposition to this around here because it's virtually the same as RP's argument. (hence voting for kickbacks for his district, etc)

 

[fr33]

Who indentured you to pay for colleges? Why do you think money you gave the government is yours? (as danke has pointed out the income tax-if you are referring to that-is a voluntary tax that most people don't have to pay) Love it or leave it, as the minarchists like to say.

Soon in November I'll be voting against a community college's bond for the 3rd time. It failed the last two attempts. It will probably pass this time. For owning property in this county, I'll be forced to pay for something that I do not own or use. To your question of "WHO?", the answer is: my neighbors.

http://www.cookecitizens.org/

 

[Christian Liberty]

That is some awful fine mental gymnastics you did there. Bravo. Here's the scenario, a robber robs a person on the street. You know or even watch the robbery occur. The robber says, have some money. (hell, the robber even hopes to gain your loyalty with it.. whether he does or not being besides the point) You taking the money you know full well isn't yours, that you know full well was taken from someone, is immoral. You can spice it up however you wish to make yourself feel better but honestly having honesty towards yourself is the best enlightenment.

The economics of being an indentured servant aside. (i.e. you will end up forever indebted)

If I knew who it was taken from, and didn't return it, I'd agree that that's immoral, but the immoral action would be refusing to return the property, not my taking it from the thief in the first place. If I took it and kept it, I would be being immoral for keeping it, but not for taking it in the first place.

However, with government-stolen money, its impossible to know who "really" owns the money, only that its stolen by the legalized mafia. I see nothing wrong with plundering them. What would be better to do with it? Let them keep it? Yeah, no.

 

[James Madison]

I'm not what you'd call 'pro-military', but consider this, FF. The Feds have repeatedly tagged returning soldiers and vets as the single largest source of potential domestic unrest. They're quick to bestow on you the riches of the Empire, but once you get back and are no longer useful for their ends, they'll discard you like a used plastic wrapper. Yes, I've met active and former military who are truly messed-up in the head, but most are normal people. Some joined for the right reasons. Some joined for the wrong reasons. Some joined out of patriotic duty. Some joined because they needed a change of scenery. Others joined because they needed a job.

Yes, there are loons like Cotton, McCain, and Graham, but you've also men like Jesse Ventura, Ron Paul, and Adam Kokesh. You've guys like Smedley Butler. Even George Washington would be considered 'anti-military' by mainstream Republicans today.

I think we would be wise to not burn our bridges at the moment.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my earlier post; The income tax isn't going towards Pell Grants and Stafford Loans.

Even if one didn't pay for one's education directly with the income tax, indirectly through an inflationary deception they are. (and furthermore they have no say in the matter)

Aha! I see what you mean now. I agree. Have you paid any student loans lately? I've been paying mine down for a few years now. Though I make the check out to the dept. of education, the loan is "serviced" by Mohella (formerly Direct Loans). As I understand, servicers get a decent cut. I also cut monthly checks to Sallie Mae. I really wish this site had existed in 1999 so I could've avoided the whole mess. I've got my credentials hanging on my wall and no serious job in the field to show for it. The only thing I got out of it was a brief secretary job because my cert focused on computers. /ramble