Update: Just spoke to bus companies

[rp08orbust]

Frankly, if secrecy (defined as not answering every objection raised by nayjevin and tangent4ronpaul point-by-point) will help David and the others involved pick up the pace in getting this project moving instead of wasting time trying to placate the naysayers in this thread, then I vote for more secrecy until the project is ready to begin raising money. Once they start asking for serious money, then will be the time for audits, Socratic interrogations and background checks on everyone involved. If the plan is a good one and questions are answered, donations will flow; otherwise, they won't.

 

[nayjevin]

I could be wrong, but I don't think ronpaulnation.org (David) ever called anyone "sheep".

He did: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...a-Straw-Poll&p=3260432&viewfull=1#post3260432

Ron Paul cannot win the Ames straw poll on the strength of the enlightened few of us who have, say, bought all his books, hang out on RonPaulForums.com, driven hundreds of miles just for his autograph and a photo, flown to DC for CPAC just to vote for him in a straw poll, etc. There are probably no more than a thousand people in Iowa who have done any of the above.

This is a rational understanding of the nature of human beings. 'Sheep' is not.

The things you have listed are secondary, and therefore irrelevant, to the only important statistic: How many people voted for Ron last time? It is rational to assume that, if we have 3x more people now, 3x more people will vote this time. And if, whatever the true numbers are, it is not enough - then some plan would be advisable.

The official campaign will likely have a plan in place - one that folks can join and help with - without any of this plan being necessary. However, no evidence as to how one might be able to predict what the official plan will be. This story plays previously in this thread of course, if one were to read it.

That may be ten times more true believers than any other candidate has, and they may ultimately be the secret to Ron Paul's success, but the true believers are not enough to win the Ames straw poll.

Your perception of a 'true believer' does not jive with 'how many people will vote at the straw poll'. We do not disagree that encouragement will be necessary to get maximum turnout. We disagree that this plan is the best way to do it. I believe plans are more effective when they are local - it is the same argument I have for not sending money to Washington bureaucrats to solve problems in small town America. I've already explained this adequately in the thread of course.

Rather, we need the votes of 9,000 other people who are sheep in their political lives.

Again, poor choice of words, but I can see you have a better understanding of human nature than does RonPaulNation.

No one has time to adequately research every choice they make in their lives. I don't adequately research my choice of automotive engine oil--I just go with whatever brand on the shelf looks like the winner, because I have zero interest in cars and automotive mechanics.

And potential donors will do the same - that is why I take the responsibility of vetting this project. The responses, hostility, spin, and avoidance of questions by the person who aims to lead the project has raised my skepticism and done nothing to allay my fears. It looks as though it would be rational to assume the project will be handled poorly.

The goal of the busing project is to herd as many of such people to Ames on August 13 as possible.

No one is arguing against getting as many people there as possible. It is the plan as presented, and the method of presentation.

The secret of our success will be in having enough true believers to fund and staff this project, not in having enough true believers to drive themselves and a few others who spontaneously decide to hop in the car with them to Ames.

Don't again reduce any alternative plan to carpooling. Alternative plans with leaders and spokespeople more suitable could also involve buses. Alternative plans could allow for people in Iowa to make decisions. RonPaulNation lives in Rhode Island.

I have asked who is involved in this project from Iowa. RonPaulNation has ignored these questions. He has made claims that there were organizers in Iowa. I questioned as to whom, or if they wished to be anonymous. He has ignored those questions. It's all in the thread.

 

[nayjevin]

Frankly, if secrecy (defined as not answering every objection raised by nayjevin and tangent4ronpaul point-by-point) will help David and the others involved pick up the pace in getting this project moving instead of wasting time trying to placate the naysayers in this thread, then I vote for more secrecy until the project is ready to begin raising money. Once they start asking for serious money, then will be the time for audits, Socratic interrogations and background checks on everyone involved. If the plan is a good one and questions are answered, donations will flow; otherwise, they won't.

Secrecy is not defined by what you say. This is not a waste of time. I am not a naysayer. I don't oppose planning in private prior to release of information. This isn't an interrogation. I've asked for no background checks. You're being unfair.

 

[ronpaulitician]

$200,000 is a lot of money.

I'm with some of the posters in this thread in that lack of confidence will likely prevent me from donating. I see two solutions: bring in vetted RPF veterans who can take charge of the project and/or set a more realistic first milestone ("We are going to put together the organizational structure to rent 5 buses at a total estimated cost of about $10,000 for those Ron Paul supporters who will be unable to provide their own transportation and/or who will be unable to get a rid from a fellow Ron Paul supporter.") Getting that first milestone should be achievable in time enough to set a further milestone, and by then the credibility level of the project will have increased enough to allow for a more challenging milestone. ("We have already successfully rented 5 buses. We want to rent 45 more for a total estimated cost of an additional $90,000.")

$10,000 will be a lot easier and a lot faster to put together than $200,000. And even if you think 100-200 buses are needed, 5 of them still provide value, especially if they are used to maximum effect (in close-enough proximity to Ames where they can make multiple trips per day, loaded to the max by picking high-target areas).

PS Not winning the straw poll won't be the end of the campaign. Depending on what other candidates join the race, I think even a third of fourth place finish will keep Ron Paul in the race long enough to allow him to continue spreading his message of liberty. And although this may be his last ever presidential run (he looks to me like he could maybe squeeze one more in in 2015), I think Paul would be the first to agree that seeing the effect that spreading his message in 2007-2008 had on the US as a whole double or even triple as a result of his presidential run in 2011-2012 could be considered a "win". Merely hearing him say the "Oh yeah, if there were no laws we would all be doing heroin" line brought me joy, as that is exactly what I have been telling people around me for years. It is an effective message if it comes from someone that people find credible. If he can just have a few more lines like that in front of a national audience, in a spot where he is at least no longer outright dismissed as an incredible crazy guy, he may very well be able to provide the needed fuel to see some of his ideas come to fruition. Not that he alone would be the driving motivation to make these changes, but he could certainly help speed it up. And once one commonly held misbelief falls, others may very well fall soon after. A more common sense in regard to drug policy may at the same time affect our foreign policy. A more common sense foreign policy may at the same time affect our welfare policies. Etc. Yes, it'd be nice if he can get first in Ames, but not coming in first while still being able to positively affect change would still be a win in my book.

 

[Live_Free_Or_Die]

nt

 

[tangent4ronpaul]

$200,000 is a lot of money.

No kidding! But this all started out with Rachel saying we needed to raise 1 million and rent 1,000 buses. Now it's scaled back as to number of buses, but there is amusement park, catered food, buy them a ticket, etc. Oh, and we aren't even into rent a building - so I guess we are still a lot closer to 1 million than 200 thousand.

Can we come back to reality here people? and that means active supporters on the ground FIRST! Finding out what kind of support we have where and what is needed.

 

[Mallory]

Well we have to figure out how many of these people are going to pay for their own tickets, and how many of them will want the campaign (us) to. Surely lots of supporters will want to foot their own way even if they're bused in (I'm talking about the $30 ticket), but the more on-the-edge people will want it paid for.

I think as far as buses go, we should be focusing most on Des Moines and Polk County (due to size) and Jefferson (due to that's the county Ron won in the caucus in 07). I'm not saying that's all we should do, of course, but it's what should be prioritized first. And I also think we shouldn't be afraid to spend moneybomb and other fundraising proceeds in Ames, as this is a huge kickoff.

For anyone who doesn't know, there is a July 19th Ames moneybomb. Here is the facebook RSVP page: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/event.php?eid=221469004546764 Please RSVP and send to your friends (this is specifically designated solely for Ames)

 

[Eric21ND]

Well we have to figure out how many of these people are going to pay for their own tickets, and how many of them will want the campaign (us) to. Surely lots of supporters will want to foot their own way even if they're bused in (I'm talking about the $30 ticket), but the more on-the-edge people will want it paid for.

I think as far as buses go, we should be focusing most on Des Moines and Polk County (due to size) and Jefferson (due to that's the county Ron won in the caucus in 07). I'm not saying that's all we should do, of course, but it's what should be prioritized first. And I also think we shouldn't be afraid to spend moneybomb and other fundraising proceeds in Ames, as this is a huge kickoff.

For anyone who doesn't know, there is a July 19th Ames moneybomb. Here is the facebook RSVP page: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/event.php?eid=221469004546764 Please RSVP and send to your friends (this is specifically designated solely for Ames)

We can't assume that. Other campaigns buy the tickets for their supporters AND provide transportation and entertainment there. We should do no less for our supporters.

 

[nayjevin]

I did the dirty work. It was asked for someone to go back through the Iowa threads and figure out what questions were still left unanswered. Most of these questions were asked in one of the 6 threads, some are new. Most would be directed at Ronpaulnation.org, or anyone helping coordinate these projects. Neatly numbered for ease of answering.


1. Which other organizations have reserved 200 buses?

2. How many total buses do they have? (the companies contacted)

3. Was the list data from the deleted hard drive recovered?

4. Who has access to "the list"

5. Has Susan Wolfe been contacted?

6. What work still needs to be done on the website?

7. Has Doug Weade been contacted?

8. When do the "can't coordinate with the campaign" rules kick in? After announcement?

9. Is paying to set up a meetup group in each county/city a possibility that has been looked at?

10. Do you have a breakdown in IA of where supporters might be?

11. What fraction of cost is orgs like C4L allowed to take on?

12. Online phone banking system (like Schiff had)?

13. Is the official campaign or other official organizations considering buses or working on similar projects?

14. Who has talked to the campaign about such projects?

from post #76
response from RPN

15. Please explain this.

16. What if the campaign rents buses?

17. What happens if enough money isn't raised for the project?

18. Why the need for the custom moneybomb module needed?

19. Why is chipin not a good tool to use instead?

20. Why is a secure bus registration module needed?

21. What does a secure bus registration module entail?

22. Would any money from this project go to ads in smaller papers?

23. Have the previous county coordinators either from meetup or CFL been contacted about the project?

24. Has Nateforliberty's idea of using a site like thepoint.com to ensure a money back option if the buses don't happen been looked into?

25. Will a ride sharing section be implemented into the RPN website?

26. How do we know how many buses are actually needed?

27. Is there a plan in place to find out what that number might be?

28. Where would the buses pick people up? Has the Walmart idea been considered?

29. What will be done to ensure that the resources won't be spent on supporters of other candidates?

30. How will the money be raised?

31. Will the buses be reserved as the money is recieved or all at once in the end?

32. What besides buses will the money raised from this project go to?

33. Where is the list of what money has already been spent on the project ie, website, and say reciepts or screenshots for proof?

In post #231 it was said by ronpaulnation.org that 2 sites were almost up and running.

34. What is the 2nd site?
35. What is the purpose of having 2 sites?
36. What donated money was spent on the 2nd site?

37. What are the top 20 cities with known supporters?

38. Who are the "experienced people" involved in this project?

39. What is their involvement?

40. Who involved in the project/thread lives in Iowa?

41. Has anyone contacted Drew Ivers or Joel Seehusen?

42. Is there a list of meetup leaders in Iowa?
43. Who is in contact with them?

44. Is the bus project and the housing project one and the same?

45. Who is heading each project?

46. What plans have been made for the housing project?

47. Who are the leaders of these projects and what are their credentials?

48. Where else besides RPFs is this being planned/discussed? Links?

49. In post #339 it was said by Ronpaulnation.org that the website was done. Can you link to the finished website?

50. What is the estimated launch for the PAC website and the bus project website?

51. Can these be integrated into one site?

52. Has anyone contacted Larry Lepard in regards to moderating the money from the projects?

53. Who else might be willing to do this?

54. What experience do they have, what credentials do they have?

55. Is the PAC registered officially?

56. Does the PAC intend on supporting any other candidates besides Ron Paul?

57. Does the PAC intend on funding any projects other than Iowa?

58. What is the time line to make the project official?

59. Why hasn't any work been done to the ronpaulnation.org website in the last week?

60. How will the companies being used (bus, caterers) be chosen?

61. Who are the original people who started the bus and housing ideas?
62. Where are they now?

63. How have you determined potential ridership?

64. What efforts are being made to bring in non traditional voters? Non republicans? Unknown supporters?



Specific question for Craig bergman:

Will you be working in an official capacity with the campaign this time?

If no, why not?

How are you involved with this facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/RP2012ISP?sk=app_2373072738



Whats with the association between the facebook page belonging to your company (through likes) and these people/orgs

--likes Governor Jan Brewer, Heartland Institute, The Cato Institute, Mike Pence, Joe Arpaio, Conservative, American Majority, Christians United for Israel (CUFI), The US Constitution, RightChange, Michelle Malkin, Michele Bachmann, Matt Schultz, Rush Limbaugh and the EIB Network, Campaign for Liberty, Proud to be an American, Bob Vander Plaats, Tea Party Patriots, The American Vision, Iowa For Freedom, Team Huck Iowa, Republican National Committee, Roy Moore, TEApublican, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Being Conservative, Fox News, Rand Paul, The Bible, The Bible, Can-Do Conservatives of America, Remember November, The Federalist Society, The Patriot Post, Mike Huckabee, FreedomWorks, NewsBusters.org, Rush Limbaugh, Mark Levin, Americans for Prosperity, Positively Republican!, The Heritage Foundation, FairTax.org, Benjamin Netanyahu - בנימין נתניהו, Christine O'Donnell for US Senate, Brannon Howse, LifeNews.com, Petition Obama: Reinstate the National Day of Prayer, Americans United for Life, Chuck DeVore, David Barton/WallBuilders, Pamela Gorman, Leadership Institute, National Federation of Republican Assemblies (NFRA), Foundation for Moral Law, Iowa FairTax, Steve Deace, The Family Leader, grassrootsIOWA.com, Congressman Steve King, Iowa GOP - The Official Page for Iowa Republicans, Iowa Federation of College Republicans, LUVIowa, 2012 Presidential Straw Poll, Tom Shaw for Iowa House, Calvin Coolidge, Charles Minimah--




If anyone has any other questions please add on to this list, but include numbers after what has already been posted to limit confusion.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?291962-As-Requested-Unanswered-PAC-bus-project-questions
..

 

[nayjevin]

There's no reason a chipin couldn't be formed, and a corresponding thread here and at DailyPaul, for 1 bus by a respected organizer IN IOWA.

If there are two organizers, another chipin could be started. If two buses are needed in that area, a bigger chipin.

Then people can choose which areas are important and what organizers they trust.

This is one group of secretive people asking for a whole lot of money in a centralized fashion. There are better ways to do it.

 

[teacherone]

ok... who do you suggest in iowa?

can you contact them?

 

[nayjevin]

Well if they're watching this thread they can take initiative

Meetup leaders and those who have already been mentioned in this thread would be where I would start - but I don't presume to plan for Iowans from afar.

 

[teacherone]

so in your opinion people who don't live in iowa should wait until somebody plans something they can donate money to but should not try organize something themselves?

 

[nayjevin]

so in your opinion people who don't live in iowa should wait until somebody plans something they can donate money to but should not try organize something themselves?

Not quite.

If there is no one living in Iowa in this thread, I will just laugh at the arrogance.

There is no way that Iowans aren't planning for this. There's no way the campaign has no plans. There's no way meetup organizers in Iowa haven't thought about this. There's no way YAL groups in Iowa have done nothing.

If I were inclined to take the bull by the horns in Iowa, I would first audit what is already being done.

 

[teacherone]

cool. i guess people are just itching to help out and don't know how from afar.

hopefully some iowans will jump in here!

 

[nayjevin]

One person in Iowa with an empty seat posting a thread and offering a ride would surpass this project in effectiveness thus far.

This project must overcome the money it has already spent to prove effective. It also must overcome the man/woman hours spent by all in this thread. I know I have 20 hours in it at least.

 

[RabbitMan]

One person in Iowa with an empty seat posting a thread and offering a ride would surpass this project in effectiveness thus far.

This project must overcome the money it has already spent to prove effective. It also must overcome the man/woman hours spent by all in this thread. I know I have 20 hours in it at least.

But wasn't that only because you were arguing/bickering with them over how their top-down, authoritarian approach to spontaneously organizing a success in Ames would go against all the values we espouse so dearly? [/sarcasm]

Seriously, I don't understand the argument over this. If people don't want to contribute to this plan and think it is a terrible waste, then let them find their own way. Don't try to shut things down because planning was done 'in secret'* and people haven't finished figuring out exactly how to pull off a stunt like this. It takes time. So just, let the market decide, okay?

*In secret so far as you weren't there to participate in the discussion because you didn't care enough to figure out how.

 

[nayjevin]

But wasn't that only because you were arguing/bickering with them over how their top-down, authoritarian approach to spontaneously organizing a success in Ames would go against all the values we espouse so dearly? [/sarcasm]

Seriously, I don't understand the argument over this. If people don't want to contribute to this plan and think it is a terrible waste, then let them find their own way. Don't try to shut things down because planning was done 'in secret'* and people haven't finished figuring out exactly how to pull off a stunt like this. It takes time. So just, let the market decide, okay?

*In secret so far as you weren't there to participate in the discussion because you didn't care enough to figure out how.

I've already been over this in the thread. Part of a free market is vigilance. Think 'consumer reports'.

There have been claims to the necessity for secrecy without corresponding reasoning. There has as of now been no sound reason presented for secrecy.

There's no risk another grassroots steals the idea - there are no other active grassroots that could pull off a plan of this magnitude.

There's no risk other official campaigns will steal a bus idea - every campaign has been doing buses forever - it's no trade secret.

Planning done in private, lack of transparency, wanting to deal with dissenters one-on-one in or in conference calls as opposed to being on a level platform such as this - all signs of fraudsters.

 

[LABIX]

Consumer Reports. LMAO. The topic has officially jumped the shark.

 

[nayjevin]

Consumer Reports. LMAO. The topic has officially jumped the shark.

Any facts? That seems like a guised personal attack.