Two Reformed Baptist arguments against paedobaptism refuted

[TER]

If they had saving faith in Jesus they were. If they didn't, then they weren't, and in that case they did not really believe in Jesus, in the sense the scriptures talk about.

At any rate, having the label "gnostic" applied to them by some human being, and being excluded from the communion of any particular assembly by its bishop, has no bearing on the question. If God reckoned them righteous by faith then they were part of His Church, and if he didn't, then they weren't.

So why should I put more trust in your thoughts and interpretations of what the Church is and what it means to be a member of the Church than St. Ignatius or any of the other Saints of the early Church? Do you consider yourself greater then them and more illuminated then them?

 

[Sola_Fide]

That is also true.

The apostles were commissioned with founding the Church. Christian dogma was not meant to be something that would be ever changing throughout the centuries with each generation repeating the apostles' work in making something new. Since their passing, our obligation has been to hold fast to the faith that was once for all delivered to us by them.

Yes:

Jude 1:3

Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[erowe1]

So why should I put more trust in your thoughts and interpretations of what the Church is and what it means to be a member of the Church than St. Ignatius or any of the other Saints of the early Church? Do you consider yourself greater then them and more illuminated then them?

You shouldn't. You have the apostles' own writings to tell you what the apostles taught.

 

[Sola_Fide]

So why should I put more trust in your thoughts and interpretations of what the Church is and what it means to be a member of the Church than St. Ignatius or any of the other Saints of the early Church? Do you consider yourself greater then them and more illuminated then them?

Instead of constantly thinking about who is the greatest, you should think about who is the least. The path is narrow and only a few find it.

 

[TER]

That is also true.

The apostles were commissioned with founding the Church. Christian dogma was not meant to be something that would be ever changing throughout the centuries with each generation repeating the apostles' work in making something new. Since their passing, our obligation has been to hold fast to the faith that was once for all delivered to us by them.

Yes, and thankfully this Church has survived by the grace of God.

 

[erowe1]

Yes, and thankfully this Church has survived by the grace of God.

Agreed.

 

[TER]

You shouldn't. You have the apostles' own writings to tell you what the apostles taught.

Yes, we do. And we have the Church to interpret them and apply them for the faithful in the times they are living in.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Yes, and thankfully this Church has survived by the grace of God.

Wasn't it their will?

 

[Sola_Fide]

Yes, we do. And we have the Church to interpret them and apply them for the faithful in the times they are living in.

Where in the Bible is "church" an institution rather than just the simple designation of the gathered individual believers?

 

[TER]

You shouldn't. You have the apostles' own writings to tell you what the apostles taught.

I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that... Why should I take your interpretation of the writings of the Holy Scriptures and of the faith handed once down for all the saints over St. Ignatius?

 

[erowe1]

Yes, we do. And we have the Church to interpret them and apply them for the faithful in the times they are living in.

Yes we do. Everyone who believes in Jesus.

 

[erowe1]

I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that... Why should I take your interpretation of the writings of the Holy Scriptures and of the faith handed once down for all the saints over St. Ignatius?

You shouldn't. You have the apostles' writings themselves. They should serve as your standard for what the apostles' taught. You don't need me anywhere in the equation.

 

[TER]

Where in the Bible is "church" an institution rather than just the simple designation of the gathered individual believers?

It started when Christ selected 12, and then He selected 70, and then His Apostles established an ordained clergy, and they in turn did the same.

 

[TER]

Yes we do. Everyone who believes in Jesus.

Unfortunately, that is not the faith of the early Christians, as we see in their writings. Not everyone who will say "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom.

 

[wizardwatson]

Agreed.

Beautiful. We're all happy and getting along.

So what's the verdict? Is baptism still about repentance the way Jesus and John taught, or should we start trying to baptze babies prior to abortion?

Because 4000 innocent lives are being cast alive into hell every day that we could save by baptism, seems important, right Sola?

Or we can all stand around congratulating ourselves on our superior intellectual understanding that is non-scriptural.

 

[TER]

You shouldn't. You have the apostles' writings themselves. They should serve as your standard for what the apostles' taught. You don't need me anywhere in the equation.

Of course we need you in the equation since you are putting your interpretation of the faith over theirs. The truth is that I put much more weight in what St. Ignatius said and believed and taught to be apostolic then what you think is apostolic and correct.

 

[erowe1]

Unfortunately, that is not the faith of the early Christians, as we see in their writings. Not everyone who will say "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom.

That is the faith of the early Christians. The reason not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord," will enter is that not all of them have genuine faith.

Don't get me wrong, I don't deny that there is such a thing as counterfeit faith. There is. And those whose faith is not of the genuine saving kind do not belong to the Church. But those whose faith is real all do, without exception. It has nothing to do with being subsumed under any humanly organized hierarchy.

 

[erowe1]

Of course we need you in the equation since you are putting your interpretation of the faith over theirs.

As I said, I am not.

The truth is that I put much more weight in what St. Ignatius said and believed and taught to be apostolic then what you think is apostolic and correct.

But again, you have the apostles' own writings. So the question is, do you put more weight in the apostles themselves than you do in Ignatius.

Furthermore, do you have anything specific in mind from Ignatius? It may be that when you check his writings on that point, you will find that he makes no claim to be passing on something he received from the apostles. As I recall, Ignatius never claims to be passing on anything apostolic except on points that can already be gotten from the apostles' writings, which he sometimes quotes.

 

[erowe1]

Beautiful. We're all happy and getting along.

So what's the verdict? Is baptism still about repentance the way Jesus and John taught, or should we start trying to baptze babies prior to abortion?

Because 4000 innocent lives are being cast alive into hell every day that we could save by baptism, seems important, right Sola?

Or we can all stand around congratulating ourselves on our superior intellectual understanding that is non-scriptural.

I'm lost.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Of course we need you in the equation since you are putting your interpretation of the faith over theirs. The truth is that I put much more weight in what St. Ignatius said and believed and taught to be apostolic then what you think is apostolic and correct.

Who inteprets what Ignatius wrote?