Trump Promises a “100% Tariff” on Cars Made Outside the US

[Swordsmyth]

If he ever is, you won't be the scholar who first notices.

Indeed, I am not, many more eminent minds than myself have exposed the lies of Free Trade long before I learned from them and changed my position.

 

[Swordsmyth]

I watched that video and my takeaway was the opposite. They're complaining about a DOE regulation that's putting them out of business.

Seems like a valid complaint to me.

Don't bring facts and logic into this.
The religion of free trade can't survive them.

 

[Swordsmyth]

This is what protectionism wrought:



This is my hometown. I used to work at the mill. So did my grandfather and 2 uncles. But notice how they act like welfare queens? They need more government protections to save them from previous government protections. And this is type of business that is supposed to GAIN from protectionism!

Those that are harmed have no idea what caused their hardships.

That's what government regulations and internal taxation that destroy or prevent domestic competition caused.
Why do people put up with that? because they can still buy things produced by hyper polluting and slave labor using countries like China.
Yes, Free Trade enables big government.

 

[CaptUSA]

 

[Invisible Man]

That's what government regulations and internal taxation that destroy or prevent domestic competition caused.
Why do people put up with that? because they can still buy things produced by hyper polluting and slave labor using countries like China.
Yes, Free Trade enables big government.

I'm not for any regulations or taxes. But you make it sound like a win-win. We get the benefit of the cost savings of cars made without those regulations, while not bearing the cost of that pollution happening where we live. Plus, we are spared having to allocate all that labor in our own country to these things and have all those workers freed up to do something else.

 

[nobody's_hero]

Economic theory is a hard sell when there are more practical issues that people are faced with.

To a blue collar worker, there's nothing more tangible than the factory you've worked at for most of your adult life, packing up operations and moving overseas or simply shuttering in the face of what appears to be, by design, a purposeful effort to make it nearly impossible to operate in the USA while simultaneously welcoming (out-right encouraging) the influx of cheap goods produced overseas in near-slavery conditions. (which has an added benefit of masking the declining value of the US Dollar, so . . . there's the motive, at least as far as the government's concerned).

We throw out the word "protectionist" far too liberally.

These people are not fat cats with monocles, top-hats, and ridiculous sideburns, rolling tobacco in $100 bills and smoking it up.

They're people who actually want to work. They know what they're good at (these dirty, inferior jobs like machining, welding, etc). It's no easy thing to just forget everything you've ever done and pick up an entirely new line of work. To add to it, there's far more people in those situations than there are opportunities to alleviate their conditions. And I swear, it's by design.

Entire towns have evaporated when factories shut their doors. In most cases, they never recover. Former workers fall into depression, turn to drugs, alcohol, etc. Crime rises. The next generation moves out in search of opportunity—that is, if they're fortunate enough to not get trapped in the life themselves. Give up the last bit of pride you have for a welfare check, and join the club. That seems to be the plan, anyways.

Tariffs are not the worst of evils. And telling people that they're just hurting themselves by supporting tariffs, when these people don't have any paycheck to spend anyway, and have this 'what's the fking difference?' look on their faces while you try to school them on economics . . .

It's hard to sell it.

 

[PAF]

Economic theory is a hard sell when there are more practical issues that people are faced with.

To a blue collar worker, there's nothing more tangible than the factory you've worked at for most of your adult life, packing up operations and moving overseas or simply shuttering in the face of what appears to be, by design, a purposeful effort to make it nearly impossible to operate in the USA while simultaneously welcoming (out-right encouraging) the influx of cheap goods produced overseas in near-slavery conditions. (which has an added benefit of masking the declining value of the US Dollar, so . . . there's the motive, at least as far as the government's concerned).

We throw out the word "protectionist" far too liberally.

These people are not fat cats with monocles, top-hats, and ridiculous sideburns, rolling tobacco in $100 bills and smoking it up.

They're people who actually want to work. They know what they're good at (these dirty, inferior jobs like machining, welding, etc). It's no easy thing to just forget everything you've ever done and pick up an entirely new line of work. To add to it, there's far more people in those situations than there are opportunities to alleviate their conditions. And I swear, it's by design.

Entire towns have evaporated when factories shut their doors. In most cases, they never recover. Former workers fall into depression, turn to drugs, alcohol, etc. Crime rises. The next generation moves out in search of opportunity—that is, if they're fortunate enough to not get trapped in the life themselves. Give up the last bit of pride you have for a welfare check, and join the club. That seems to be the plan, anyways.

Tariffs are not the worst of evils. And telling people that they're just hurting themselves by supporting tariffs, when these people don't have any paycheck to spend anyway, and have this 'what's the fking difference?' look on their faces while you try to school them on economics . . .

It's a hard sell.

Real life, true life, we all live it every day.

But people as a whole can be and are resilient when it comes down to it. It only takes a threshold of a minority to affect a change, positive or negative. The idea is to promote the most liberty-based ideas and solutions and see where things go. What other choice do we have, other than to willingly allow things to get worse, or stagnant?

 

[tebowlives]

Which part do you disagree with?

1) Free trade leads to the division of industries between nations, or
2) That the above division of industries creates an "interdependence" on each other

???

#1 is basically a core tenet of free trade, and #2 is a pretty obvious side effect of #1

You can certainly take a position that #2 is not in of itself a bad thing, but I don't see any rational argument that denies that #2 follows #1, which is what SS is asserting

Is this what you are saying - A nation has resources for a product and they have a much lower cost of living than America. The quality may be the same and since it costs less for them to produce, they can under sell American made. It could drive an American business or industry to dry up.
Is that the angle?

 

[nobody's_hero]

Real life, true life, we all live it every day.

But people as a whole can be and are resilient when it comes down to it. It only takes a threshold of a minority to affect a change, positive or negative. The idea is to promote the most liberty-based ideas and solutions and see where things go. What other choice do we have, other than to willingly allow things to get worse, or stagnant?

I guess if I felt that it was a natural occurrence, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

But the rug is being pulled out from under folks.

On one side, you have people saying, just apply for welfare. On the other, you have people basically saying, just 'learn to code.'

Not everyone is cut out to be an aeronautical engineer. There seems to be this unwritten rule that people just naturally move up into high-tech jobs when the bossman calls them into the break room and tells them the plant is shutting down.

And that's just not what happens in the vast majority of cases. If you want to try to reach these people, or at least get them to hear you out, the tone has to be something other than Marie Antionette's 'let them eat cake.' (which, if I'm being honest, is how most 'free market economists' come across)

 

[PAF]

I guess if I felt that it was a natural occurrence, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

But the rug is being pulled out from under folks.

On one side, you have people saying, just apply for welfare. On the other, you have people basically saying, just 'learn to code.'

Not everyone is cut out to be an aeronautical engineer. There seems to be this unwritten rule that people just naturally move up into high-tech jobs when the bossman calls them into the break room and tells them the plant is shutting down.

And that's just not what happens in the vast majority of cases. If you want to try to reach these people, or at least get them to hear you out, the tone has to be something other than Marie Antionette's 'let them eat cake.' (which, if I'm being honest, is how most 'free market economists' come across)

Ebbs and flows, rise and fall, that is a natural occurrence, which has happened in every generation throughout history. In the end, it comes down to what the people want, as individuals and in groups.

As far as the rug being pulled from under them [from what I understand you to mean], that becomes simply a choice after it's been repeated.

Anyway, I don't have the answers any more than you do. But as long as I have a voice, I'll say what is on my mind. As far as free market economists, perhaps you are right, but somewhere along the line, somebody's voice may resonate well enough to hopefully make a difference.

 

[TheCount]

On one side, you have people saying, just apply for welfare.

Tariffs are welfare

 

[Swordsmyth]

I'm not for any regulations or taxes. But you make it sound like a win-win. We get the benefit of the cost savings of cars made without those regulations, while not bearing the cost of that pollution happening where we live.

If you want to not have the pollution then the states can regulate it, and we can have tariffs to protect us from enemy industries that wantonly pollute and use slave labor.

Plus, we are spared having to allocate all that labor in our own country to these things and have all those workers freed up to do something else.

To do nothing else but collect welfare and vote communist.
There are lots of places all over the world that will steal all the jobs using slave labor and no regard for pollution etc.

Meanwhile we become dependent and easily controlled by foreigners and globalists demanding we do as they tell us and submit to world tyranny.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Economic theory is a hard sell when there are more practical issues that people are faced with.

To a blue collar worker, there's nothing more tangible than the factory you've worked at for most of your adult life, packing up operations and moving overseas or simply shuttering in the face of what appears to be, by design, a purposeful effort to make it nearly impossible to operate in the USA while simultaneously welcoming (out-right encouraging) the influx of cheap goods produced overseas in near-slavery conditions. (which has an added benefit of masking the declining value of the US Dollar, so . . . there's the motive, at least as far as the government's concerned).

We throw out the word "protectionist" far too liberally.

These people are not fat cats with monocles, top-hats, and ridiculous sideburns, rolling tobacco in $100 bills and smoking it up.

They're people who actually want to work. They know what they're good at (these dirty, inferior jobs like machining, welding, etc). It's no easy thing to just forget everything you've ever done and pick up an entirely new line of work. To add to it, there's far more people in those situations than there are opportunities to alleviate their conditions. And I swear, it's by design.

Entire towns have evaporated when factories shut their doors. In most cases, they never recover. Former workers fall into depression, turn to drugs, alcohol, etc. Crime rises. The next generation moves out in search of opportunity—that is, if they're fortunate enough to not get trapped in the life themselves. Give up the last bit of pride you have for a welfare check, and join the club. That seems to be the plan, anyways.

Tariffs are not the worst of evils. And telling people that they're just hurting themselves by supporting tariffs, when these people don't have any paycheck to spend anyway, and have this 'what's the fking difference?' look on their faces while you try to school them on economics . . .

It's hard to sell it.

Free trade is pushed for by and benefits the fat cats with monocles, top-hats, and ridiculous sideburns, rolling tobacco in $100 bills and smoking it up.
It destroys small and medium sized employers and the working class.
That's what it is designed to do.

 

[Swordsmyth]

I guess if I felt that it was a natural occurrence, I wouldn't be opposed to it.

I would be.
Just because a wolf eating a sheep is a natural occurrence is no reason to open the gate and let them into the fold.

When the whole world is libertarian and respects our GOD given BoR (and other) Rights we can consider free trade and open borders and not until.
And even then it would be criminal to just throw open the gates all at once and let the sudden disruption ruin the lives of millions in the name of the love of money.
Such a change would need to take place over generations with gradually dropping tariffs.
And I'd still be concerned with what taxes would replace tariffs to support the minimum legitimate functions of government.
Tariffs are simply the least intrusive and disruptive form of taxation, that's why states should be allowed to have interstate tariffs at some fraction of the feds' international tariff rate, so they don't have to do things like make us renters and themselves landlords by using property taxes, or spy on everyone with income taxes, or disrupt domestic commerce with inventory and sales taxes. (excise taxes on the first sale of defined goods are the second best tax and are less intrusive than sales taxes which cause government to concern itself with whether you are a consumer or a reseller, but sales taxes are the 3rd best tax)

 

[Swordsmyth]

Tariffs are welfare

No, they are not.

 

[TheCount]

No, they are not.

Tariffs force your fellow citizens to give you money.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Tariffs force your fellow citizens to give you money.

No they don't, they force foreigners and people who buy from them to take on part of the tax burden.
Other citizens are free to deal with those foreigners at higher prices or at the same price with lower profits to the foreigners.
Other citizens are also free to to make their own competing companies without being driven out of the market by foreign trade warfare, they can also simply buy from any of your already existing domestic competitors.
Tariffs are no more welfare than tax cuts are.

 

[acptulsa]

Tariffs force your fellow citizens to give you money.

No they don't, they force foreigners and people who buy from them to take on part of the tax burden.

"No they don't, yes they do."

 

[Swordsmyth]

"No they don't, yes they do."

Nobody is forced to give anyone money by a tariff.


And you continue to gaslight and deliberately edit away the proof you are lying:

Other citizens are free to deal with those foreigners at higher prices or at the same price with lower profits to the foreigners.
Other citizens are also free to to make their own competing companies without being driven out of the market by foreign trade warfare, they can also simply buy from any of your already existing domestic competitors.
Tariffs are no more welfare than tax cuts are.

 

[acptulsa]

Nobody is forced to give anyone money by a tariff.


And you continue to gaslight and deliberately edit away the proof you are lying:

Other citizens are free to deal with those foreigners at higher prices or at the same price with lower profits to the foreigners.
Other citizens are also free to to make their own competing companies without being driven out of the market by foreign trade warfare, they can also simply buy from any of your already existing domestic competitors.
Tariffs are no more welfare than tax cuts are.