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[Swordsmyth]

Not talking about the US, idiot.

LOL

Firstly, he absolutely was, this was in reference to the pirates preying on American shipping, and you are not that ignorant of history to pretend otherwise.

Secondly, you did your usual deceptive editing job to remove all the other quotes where he clearly was referring to the US as a nation.

 

[acptulsa]

And how many times have you considered that one man's opinion to be wrong, that you are treating him as infallible now that it suits your purpose to do so?

FFS, the only one with the date on it says 1786. You're claiming Jefferson was declaring it a nation not a country before the Constitution was ratified, shithead. How did he know? Was he a Swami like you presume to be?

Moron!

 

[Swordsmyth]

And how many times have you considered that one man's opinion to be wrong, that you are treating him as infallible now that it suits your purpose to do so?

LOL

First off, I usually agree with Jefferson.
Second, pointing out that he, AND ALL THE OTHER FOUNDERS ALONG WITH THE ENTIRE FOUNDING GENERATION, defined us correctly as a nation, doesn't mean I say he is infallible.

But you have nothing but strawmen and lies on your side, so you do what you always do.

 

[acptulsa]

Second, pointing out that he, AND ALL THE OTHER FOUNDERS

One, I don't see proof. Two, you're quoting stuff written before anyone even knew for sure what form the government would take. Third, not everyone is as concerned with the difference between a country and a nation as you and IM. Fourth, I don't think you really do care, I think you're just doing your morning two minutes hate over whatever because you build up bullshit and bile overnight.

 

[Swordsmyth]

One, I don't see proof. Two, you're quoting stuff written before anyone even knew for sure what form the government would take. Third, not everyone is as concerned with the difference between a country and a nation as you and IM. Fourth, I don't think you really do care, I think you're just doing your morning two minutes hate over whatever because you build up bullshit and bile overnight.

Proving again that you didn't bother to read what I posted, we absolutely had our form of government for most if not all of the quotes I used, and any from before would just demonstrate that we were a nation before we took on a more unified form, just as Pat Buchanan said, and history does bear that out whether any of my quotes predate the Constitution or not.

The difference matters because those who claim we are not a nation seek to use that claim to justify policies that will destroy us as a nation or a country.

And I don't have to dig up more quotes from more founders when everyone knows they all spoke of us as a nation, it's up to your side to prove we were not a nation.

 

[acptulsa]

Proving again that you didn't bother to read what I posted, we absolutely had our form of government for most if not all of the quotes I used

I read enough to see there was only one date in what you posted, didn't I, asshole?

 

[acptulsa]

and any from before would just demonstrate that we were a nation before we took on a more unified form

What?

 

[acptulsa]

And I don't have to dig up more quotes from more founders when everyone knows they all spoke of us as a nation

"Everyone" doesn't know half their names, moron.

 

[Swordsmyth]

I read enough to see there was only one date in what you posted, didn't I, asshole?

LOL

That's your problem.
You see, the others are dated by the historical events they relate to, such as Washington being President and giving his fourth annual address.
And secondly, as I already told you, the dates don't matter and any predating the Constitution only make the case stronger.

 

[acptulsa]

And secondly, as I already told you, the dates don't matter and any predating the Constitution only make the case stronger.

Statements supposedly defining the exact nature of the government can predate the establishment of the government and still define the government accurately.

You're insane.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Statements supposedly defining the exact nature of the government can predate the establishment of the government and still define the government accurately.

You're insane.

A nation is a people, not the government.
A group that is not a nation may try to become one through associating in a government and unifying over time, but a nation that is already a nation before taking on a particular government is simply a nation by itself.

 

[acptulsa]

A nation is a people, not the government

See, this is how you start toxic arguments over nothing every goddamned morning. You go off kneejerk without the slightest pause to consider what anyone is trying to say. IM was drawing a distinction between "nation" and "country" that you've never considered and probably don't even care about. And you go off and argue like an asshole for an hour because you're a whiny toxic snowflake desperate to build yourself up by finding fault with others, just like any other liberal.

What did we do to deserve being plagued by your meaningless toxic garbage?

 

[Swordsmyth]

See, this is how you start toxic arguments over nothing every goddamned morning. You go off kneejerk without the slightest pause to consider what anyone is trying to say. IM was drawing a distinction between "nation" and "country" that you've never considered and probably don't even care about. And you go off and argue like an asshole for an hour because you're a whiny toxic snowflake desperate to build yourself up by finding fault with others, just like any other liberal.

IM denied we were or are a nation, in order to justify destroying us as a nation.

 

[acptulsa]

IM denied we were or are a nation, in order to justify destroying us as a nation.

You couldn't begin to understand why he says we weren't a nation, if you can't even understand that he never denied we are a nation.

All you're doing is confirming your own stupidity.

Your stupidity and your obsessive toxicity. How can someone who doesn't know what the technical difference is, and doesn't care either, argue about it for an hour? You don't have anything to add to our conversations, you just come here to screech autistically.

 

[acptulsa]

in order to justify

I don't know if it's more pitiful that you come here every morning trying to build yourself up by tearing others down, that you think you're sane even as you create straw men of us to tear down, or that you keep coming back after failing 99.7% of the time. Sucks to be you.

 

[Invisible Man]

We were supposed to be structured more loosely, be we were always a nation, and all the founders spoke of us as such.

Please cite a source where "the founders" spoke of the United States as a nation. They didn't do that in the Constitution. I don't think they ever did at all, but I welcome any examples showing I'm wrong about that.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Please cite a source where "the founders" spoke of the United States as a nation. They didn't do that in the Constitution. I don't think they ever did at all, but I welcome any examples showing I'm wrong about that.

I already did, see above.
And there are many more.

 

[Anti Federalist]

Please cite a source where "the founders" spoke of the United States as a nation. They didn't do that in the Constitution. I don't think they ever did at all, but I welcome any examples showing I'm wrong about that.

John Adams referred to the US as a "nation" in his inaugural address on March 4, 1797. He used the term "this nation" multiple times when referencing the United States, its government, and its people. For example, he stated, "And may that Being who is supreme over all, the Patron of Order, the Fountain of Justice, and the Protector in all ages of the world of virtuous liberty, continue His blessing upon this nation and its Government and give it all possible success and duration consistent with the ends of His providence"

And here:

James Madison frequently referred to the United States as a "nation" or "national" in his writings, particularly in The Federalist Papers
See Federalist 10 and 51 specifically.

And here:

Thomas Jefferson frequently referred to the US as a "nation" or a "people" in various contexts, particularly in his writings related to the Declaration of Independence and the establishment of the new nation. He also used the term "United States" to refer to the new country

And here:

George Washington referred to the United States as a "nation" in a letter to the states on June 8, 1783, according to a document on the National Archives website. In that letter, he stated, "At this Auspicious period the United States came into existence as a Nation"

And here:

In his 1776 speech "On American Independence," Samuel Adams used the term "nation" to refer to the colonies collectively

And here:

George Mason at his speech at the Virginia Ratifying Convention, where he argued that the Constitution created a "consolidated government" and no longer a "confederation," effectively referring to the US as a unified nation.

There are many other examples, but it's clear that even the Anti Federalists understood and accepted that the unified former colonies would be a new nation, with a national interest and identity,

 

[Invisible Man]

I already did, see above.
And there are many more.

As anyone who is able to read can see, no you didn't.

 

[Snowball]

Washington even referred to the new Nation as an Empire in that speech. Here is the paragraph:

The Citizens of America, placed in the most enviable condition, as the sole Lords and Proprietors of a vast tract of Continent, comprehending all the various Soils and Climates of the World and abounding with all the necessaries and conveniences of life, are now, by the late satisfactory pacification, acknowledged to be possessed of absolute freedom and Independancy—They are from this period to be considered as the Actors, on a most conspicuous Theatre, which seems to be peculiarly designated by Providence for the display of human greatness and felicity, here they are not only surrounded with every thing which can contribute to the completion of private and domestic enjoyment, but Heaven has crowned all its other blessings by giving a fairer opportunity for political happiness, than any other Nation has ever been favored with—Nothing can illustrate these observations more forcibly than a recollection of the happy conjuncture of times and circumstances under which our Republic assumed its Rank among the Nations—the foundation of our Empire was not laid in the gloomy Age of ignorance and superstition, but at an Epocha when the rights of Mankind were better understood and more clearly defined, than at any former period—The researches of the human Mind after social happiness have been carried to a great extent, the treasures of knowledge acquired by the labours of Philosophers, Sages and Legislators, through a long succession of years, are laid open for our use and their collected wisdom may be happily applied in the establishment of our forms of Government. The free cultivation of letters, the unbounded extension of Commerce, the progressive Refinement of manners, the growing liberality of sentiment, and, above all, the pure and benign light of Revelation, have had a meliorating influence on Mankind and encreased the blessings of Society. At this Auspicious period the United States came into existence as a Nation, and if their Citizens should not be completely free & happy, the fault will be entirely their own.

Founders Online: From George Washington to The States, 8 June 1783

From George Washington to The States, 8 June 1783

founders.archives.gov