Tom Woods: My Memories of Jesse Benton

[parocks]

I really hope we've learned our lesson after this debacle. Ideological compromise and bending over backward to seek Republican respectability is a road to ruin for us. The libertarian movement should be run by libertarians, dammit!

I can't really argue with that. You wouldn't have been supporting Ron Paul though. Because Ron Paul is a Republican. He was seeking the Republican Nomination.

I don't care what the libertarians do, but I support the True Conservative in the mold of Robert Taft, Goldwater, Reagan, etc.

 

[parocks]

He didn't need to work for McConnell to further his career. He could've done a lot of other things, he is very valuable now. Think about WHY he would work for McConnell over anyone else? Again don't have an emotional knee-jerk reaction.

Your argument is the rational one.

Completely off topic, ran into a random Ron Paul supporter in a bar last night. Complete Loony. So, I had a bit of a flash of insight last night. Oh, a lot of people I'm arguing with here on RPF are just like this guy. I get it now.

 

[kathy88]

They made the decision in February, before the Michigan primary not to attack Romney. They wanted to, but Romney scared them.

Whether Doug Wead was making that up or not, I don't know, but if you're not going to air attacks on Romney because of counter-attacks on you, well, at that point, February 2012, you aren't in it to win it. Preserving Ron Paul's name, and Rand Paul's future, was the name of the game from Feb 2012 on.

All the delegate stuff, after Feb 2012, that was stuff that we wanted to do, and they didn't put a stop to it. But bailing out of fear in February, that was it, we were done. They might've wanted the omelet but they didn't want to risk breaking any eggs to get it. Basically, a big ol circle jerk for 6 months. Which is not to say that doing all that didn't have value. Ashley and Mark wouldn't be RNC, we wouldn't have so many state committee, so there were the tangential benefits from the pursuit of the goal. Might've have been nice for those who didn't really care that much about those tangential benefits to know that they through in the towel in Feb.

This was all accomplished DESPITE Benton's lack of help/encouragement/support. Just think where we could have ended up had he actually been on our side? Holy shit.

 

[DylanWaco]

This isn't the best thread for it, but I would like to see parocks outline the overlap between Taft, Goldwater and Reagan. Then I would like to see what about them he feels defines true conservatism. I say this without a hint of irony or condescension implied.

 

[parocks]

Twisting everything clearly wrongheaded into some marvelous work of genius super-strategy is getting quite old.

I'm with The Collins on this one. It's a reasonable strategy. Make nice to Mitch, help Mitch, and he'll at least not Primary Rand in 2016. It's not guaranteed to work, but it's a solid, reasonable strategy. I assume Benton worked for Rand in KY in 2010, that he knows his way around KY already?

 

[Anti Federalist]

Goldwater didn't have the Internet, nor did they have the numbers. They were eventually able to get Reagan elected, but obviously that wasn't good enough. This time we will do better, again we have the Internet.

It's unlikely that either one of us will be alive 50 years from now to call out whomever was wrong.

But I'll bet any amount of money, that's what people will be saying in 2062, "we'll do better this time".

Assuming they have not perfected a "freedom" vaccine by then.

That'll solve the problem once and for all, mandatory, at birth, mind altering "freedom vaccines": so these notions of liberty, privacy and freedom won't even enter your head anymore.

 

[parocks]

This isn't the best thread for it, but I would like to see parocks outline the overlap between Taft, Goldwater and Reagan. Then I would like to see what about them he feels defines true conservatism. I say this without a hint of irony or condescension implied.

Smaller Federal Government.

 

[liberty2897]

Everything he did was pretty much silly and fringe. He attacked the campaign. Tom Woods is doing something similar, but he waited until the campaign is over. Before, it hurt the campaign, now it's useful information.

I strongly disagree. It was people like you who attacked the faithful supporters like Adam Kokesh that made me (many of us?) start to question the campaign. I am ashamed to say that I really tried to keep my mouth shut during the "critical campaign time" when this sort of bashing was going on because I thought that "they" must know politics much better than a mundane like myself. Plus I hate being ridiculed by people that have max reputation by their names. Stupid, vain me...

I also didn't want to hurt Ron Paul's chances. I guess I'm like Tom Woods in that way. I wonder if Mr. Woods, being a respected member of the movement, wishes he had said more of what was on his mind earlier? Guess it couldn't have made things much worse.

I really have no idea why I'm still here. Probably just to be annoying I guess. Thanks for being one of the few to respond.

 

[erowe1]

Your argument is the rational one.

Maybe you see something I don't.

When I read Collins' argument, it looks like this:
1) Benton works for McConnell.
2) ?
3) The liberty movement and/or Rand Paul benefits in the long-term.

What goes where that question mark is? I seriously don't get it. But to you it's the rational position.

 

[kathy88]

 

[parocks]

What value did questioning the campaign do?

People are saying they won't have anything to do with anything having to do with Benton.

I'll say that I won't have anything to do with anything having to do with Kokesh.

Kokesh would be the fringe that kept Ron Paul away from Paulfest.

You don't seem to understand how hated Kokesh is by Republicans.

On FR, a good number of people used Kokesh as a reason not to support Ron Paul. He doesn't help, he only hurts.

I strongly disagree. It was people like you who attacked the faithful supporters like Adam Kokesh that made me (many of us?) start to question the campaign. I am ashamed to say that I really tried to keep my mouth shut during the "critical campaign time" when this sort of bashing was going on because I thought that "they" must know politics much better than a mundane like myself. Plus I hate being ridiculed by people that have max reputation by their names. Stupid, vain me...

I also didn't want to hurt Ron Paul's chances. I guess I'm like Tom Woods in that way. I wonder if Mr. Woods, being a respected member of the movement, wishes he had said more of what was on his mind earlier? Guess it couldn't have made things much worse.

I really have no idea why I'm still here. Probably just to be annoying I guess. Thanks for being one of the few to respond.

 

[cajuncocoa]

And we're all going to stay here until we fix it dammit!!

 

[parocks]

Maybe you see something I don't.

When I read Collins' argument, it looks like this:
1) Benton works for McConnell.
2) ?
3) The liberty movement and/or Rand Paul benefits in the long-term.

What goes where that question mark is? I seriously don't get it. But to you it's the rational position.

Here's what goes into 2)

Mitch doesn't primary Rand in the 2016 Kentucky US Senate Primary. Or, Mitch actively supports Rand in the Kentucky US Senate Primary. Or, if Rand runs for President, Mitch doesn't hinder Rand. Or, Mitch actively helps Rand in his Presidential bid.

All of those things fit easily into 2)

 

[parocks]

I strongly disagree. It was people like you who attacked the faithful supporters like Adam Kokesh that made me (many of us?) start to question the campaign. I am ashamed to say that I really tried to keep my mouth shut during the "critical campaign time" when this sort of bashing was going on because I thought that "they" must know politics much better than a mundane like myself. Plus I hate being ridiculed by people that have max reputation by their names. Stupid, vain me...

I also didn't want to hurt Ron Paul's chances. I guess I'm like Tom Woods in that way. I wonder if Mr. Woods, being a respected member of the movement, wishes he had said more of what was on his mind earlier? Guess it couldn't have made things much worse.

I really have no idea why I'm still here. Probably just to be annoying I guess. Thanks for being one of the few to respond.

Remember how everyone was so mad at Benton for pointing out that we lost? How they said it would "hurt momentum". Well, attacking Ron Paul's campaign also hurts momentum. But the people criticizing Benton for hurting momentum, did not criticize Kokesh for hurting momentum.

 

[kathy88]

What value did questioning the campaign do?

People are saying they won't have anything to do with anything having to do with Benton.

I'll say that I won't have anything to do with anything having to do with Kokesh.

Kokesh would be the fringe that kept Ron Paul away from Paulfest.

You don't seem to understand how hated Kokesh is by Republicans.

On FR, a good number of people used Kokesh as a reason not to support Ron Paul. He doesn't help, he only hurts.

Kokesh didn't keep anyone away from Paulfest. That was all Benton. Adam called out Benton. Banished. Woods also knew the deal. Banished. He didn't let anyone near Ron who might drop a truth bomb or two.

 

[kathy88]

Remember how everyone was so mad at Benton for pointing out that we lost? How they said it would "hurt momentum". Well, attacking Ron Paul's campaign also hurts momentum. But the people criticizing Benton for hurting momentum, did not criticize Kokesh for hurting momentum.

A bit late for momentum now, isn't it? That was calculated. If he'd only been honest. Hey guys, I know you wasted your blood, sweat, tears and FRNs on this campaign, and we really do appreciate it, but I'm here for Rand's future, not Ron's present, so just climb aboard, keep it coming and TRUST ME. Enter McConnell. Seriously?

 

[liberty2897]

What value did questioning the campaign do?

People are saying they won't have anything to do with anything having to do with Benton.

I'll say that I won't have anything to do with anything having to do with Kokesh.

Kokesh would be the fringe that kept Ron Paul away from Paulfest.

You don't seem to understand how hated Kokesh is by Republicans.

On FR, a good number of people used Kokesh as a reason not to support Ron Paul. He doesn't help, he only hurts.

That is your answer right there in front of your face in your own words. Republicans will never accept Libertarians into their precious little club of war-mongering and holier-than-thou attitudes. I thought the idea of infiltration was a good idea. They are on to us now. Time to move on. Otherwise we will just end up with a bunch of pussy-whipped Republican-Libertarians that are indiscernible from the neo-cons. It is a battle that WILL NOT BE WON. It is time to create a new party or something.. anything that can keep the Ron Paul movement moving forward. The Republican Party is NOT IT.

 

[parocks]

This was all accomplished DESPITE Benton's lack of help/encouragement/support. Just think where we could have ended up had he actually been on our side? Holy shit.

What are you talking about? Ron Paul is in charge of his campaign. Benton was a functionary who would be fired if Ron Paul wasn't happy with him.

The decision was made, in February, to pull the punches. Onc can argue, I suppose, that it was Benton's fault, but it's ultimately Ron Paul's decision. And the decisions were likely made to protect Rand, mostly, because "spreading the message of liberty" isn't really that big a deal. Conservatives are 40%. What is rare are Conservative politicians, and when we have one we like, who could run in 4,8,12,16 years, it might be better not to go all scorched earth. Although I do like scorched earth. And so does Romney, and Ron Paul doesn't, and Romney won and we lost.

 

[LibertyEagle]

Kokesh didn't keep anyone away from Paulfest. That was all Benton. Adam called out Benton. Banished. Woods also knew the deal. Banished. He didn't let anyone near Ron who might drop a truth bomb or two.

Dr. Paul read The Daily Paul. I'm sure he saw more than plenty.

 

[kathy88]

What are you talking about? Ron Paul is in charge of his campaign. Benton was a functionary who would be fired if Ron Paul wasn't happy with him.

The decision was made, in February, to pull the punches. Onc can argue, I suppose, that it was Benton's fault, but it's ultimately Ron Paul's decision. And the decisions were likely made to protect Rand, mostly, because "spreading the message of liberty" isn't really that big a deal. Conservatives are 40%. What is rare are Conservative politicians, and when we have one we like, who could run in 4,8,12,16 years, it might be better not to go all scorched earth. Although I do like scorched earth. And so does Romney, and Ron Paul doesn't, and Romney won and we lost.

I'm quite sure Benton wasn't being completely honest with Ron. Not after what's come out since. Especially after the RNC and all the dirty crap they pulled on us you are going to argue with people that this is how it's supposed to be? Not only that, but that we should all hop aboard the crazy train with them? Good luck with that. I've got other plans, and they don't involve any Senators in KY or their campaign managers.