Tired of the religious right putting down science

[jmdrake]

It's in the shop.

But seriously folks, if you're going to claim to know so much about God's plan and claim to know that he has the power to intervene and DOES intervene, then I would hope for a better answer.

Who claimed to know God's plan? I certainly don't. I simply believe that He has a plan and I've seen evidence of it. You asked for examples, I gave you examples. Now you want to move the goalpost to "Prove your personal experience is more important than the Holocaust". Since I don't have a cosmic calculator I can't. It's one of those "butterfly effect" things. Maybe my kid who didn't get hit by a car grows up to find the cure for HIV and saves more lives worldwide than were lost in the Holocaust? But how am I supposed to know that? Obviously I can't. All I can give you is the evidence I've seen and you can either accept it or reject it. But tell me this. What's the point of "reformed Judaism"? And no, I'm not going to take the "look it up" cop out answer. Or to quote yourself right back at you "I would hope for a better answer."

 

[Toxic]

Again...please link to the shows. And regardless of what might motivate someone like Mike Church to poo poo some particular finding (and I agree with MelissaW that some scientist calling it a "God particle" was stupid and plays into the very arguments that you are so against) it doesn't matter unless except to the extent of what they might DO about it. I'm not sure why you don't get this. Unless Mike Church or Alex Jones or Alex Jones' fill in was advocating some law against said research who cares? (You do obviously, but why?)

I don't have the transcripts to these shows, sorry.

And while I am not threatened by what talk show hosts say, I am free to be annoyed. I feel that kind of mentality goes against man's nature to explore and learn. It's like saying, "Why bother taking that ship out to sea? The world is flat."

 

[Toxic]

Who claimed to know God's plan? I certainly don't. I simply believe that He has a plan and I've seen evidence of it. You asked for examples, I gave you examples. Now you want to move the goalpost to "Prove your personal experience is more important than the Holocaust". Since I don't have a cosmic calculator I can't. It's one of those "butterfly effect" things. Maybe my kid who didn't get hit by a car grows up to find the cure for HIV and saves more lives worldwide than were lost in the Holocaust? But how am I supposed to know that? Obviously I can't. All I can give you is the evidence I've seen and you can either accept it or reject it. But tell me this. What's the point of "reformed Judaism"? And no, I'm not going to take the "look it up" cop out answer. Or to quote yourself right back at you "I would hope for a better answer."

The point is that we don't follow the original version of the religion. We ask questions, adapt, and evolve. It's why we no longer sacrifice animals. It's a more practical and less oppressive way of keeping the religion.

And for the record, there were many artists, doctors, scientists, poets, etc. who lost their lives in the holocaust. We lost many generations of great people. But hey, I guess a drug addict getting a second chance in life is more important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Muwahid]

You're upset at what you/socieity [may have] lost. People who suffer get rewarded for their suffering, therefore even if a baby does, or a million are killed in genocide perhaps it was a mercy for them. You're arguing things for purely selfish reasons, sort of like someone who lashes out at God for a loved one dying.

If I get taken away and tortured maybe I'd call out to God but he [seemingly] never answers my calls and prayers, then I die, and have a spot reserved for me in eternal paradise. People might say look he prayed to God everyday just to die. But in this case death was a mercy and led to something good.

Who the heck says everything in the world is gonna be fine n dandy because we have a God?

 

[Toxic]

You're upset at what you/socieity [may have] lost. People who suffer get rewarded for their suffering, therefore even if a baby does, or a million are killed in genocide perhaps it was a mercy for them. You're arguing things for purely selfish reasons, sort of like someone who lashes out at God for a loved one dying.

If I get taken away and tortured maybe I'd call out to God but he [seemingly] never answers my calls and prayers, then I die, and have a spot reserved for me in eternal paradise. People might say look he prayed to God everyday just to die. But in this case death was a mercy and led to something good.

Who the heck says everything in the world is gonna be fine n dandy because we have a God?

But there's no proof of heaven to begin with. So you can spend your entire life with a horrible illness and suffer til your last dying breath, all for nothing. I understand people use the theory of heaven as a form of comfort, but it's baseless in reality. If a child dies before he can grow up to find a cure for cancer, he's certainly not better dead than alive.

 

[jmdrake]

The point is that we don't follow the original version of the religion. We ask questions, adapt, and evolve. It's why we no longer sacrifice animals. It's a more practical and less oppressive way of keeping the religion.

What exactly are you "keeping"? You don't believe in heaven. You don't think God is involved at all with the affairs of men. What's the point?

And for the record, there were many artists, doctors, scientists, poets, etc. who lost their lives in the holocaust. We lost many generations of great people. But hey, I guess a drug addict getting a second chance in life is more important in the grand scheme of things.

I never said there weren't artists, doctors, scientists, etc that died in the Holocaust. Then again some survived it. Some survived by what they felt were miracles from God. Who are you to tell a holocaust survivor "Well God clearly didn't come through for you because He didn't come through for those that died"? Again the book of Job explains this. (I guess you've "evolved" beyond that). There is an enemy. There's more than one force at work in the universe. Sure God could always intervene and prevent any bad thing from happening, but that would deny people the ability to see what happens when freewill runs amuck and people make extremely bad choices.

 

[jmdrake]

I don't have the transcripts to these shows, sorry.

And while I am not threatened by what talk show hosts say, I am free to be annoyed. I feel that kind of mentality goes against man's nature to explore and learn. It's like saying, "Why bother taking that ship out to sea? The world is flat."

Actually it's a myth that most people in Columbus day thought the world was flat. Most knew it was round but felt that Columbus couldn't made the voyage because the world was bigger than he calculated it was. It turns out his critics were right. He was lucky to run into the "new world".

See: http://socyberty.com/history/did-people-in-columbus-day-really-think-the-earth-was-flat/

I think the Mike Church response to Columbus would have been "I think it's a dumb idea because the world is bigger than you claim. But if you can find enough people to fund your venture voluntarily then go for it. But it shouldn't come out of the treasury".

 

[Muwahid]

You're arguing the case if God existed or if God was merciful certain things wouldn't happen? Then when an explanation is given for why God wouldn't stop the holocaust or other events, you say well God/Heaven/etc doesn't exist?

My point is that, for arguments sake let's say God exists, and Heaven exists, just go along with it. All your problems with divine intervention, God, the holocaust, and so on, that I've seen expressed in this thread are fully explained by the rationale I think I've put forth. Obviously my rationale is fallacious if the aforementioned premise is false (heaven existing), but we're operating under the assumption it does exist.

Or am I missing something?

 

[jmdrake]

But there's no proof of heaven to begin with. So you can spend your entire life with a horrible illness and suffer til your last dying breath, all for nothing. I understand people use the theory of heaven as a form of comfort, but it's baseless in reality. If a child dies before he can grow up to find a cure for cancer, he's certainly not better dead than alive.

Straw man argument combined with circular reasoning. You can't prove that God exists either. (As a "reformed Jew" do you even believe there is a God? If no then what is your "religion"?) The point is that if God exists and if He provides for His children a home in heaven then temporary suffering on earth is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

 

[jmdrake]

You're arguing the case if God existed or if God was merciful certain things wouldn't happen? Then when an explanation is given for why God wouldn't stop the holocaust or other events, you say well God/Heaven/etc doesn't exist?

My point is that, for arguments sake let's say God exists, and Heaven exists, just go along with it. All your problems with divine intervention, God, the holocaust, and so on, that I've seen expressed in this thread are fully explained by the rationale I think I've put forth. Obviously my rationale is fallacious if the aforementioned premise is false (heaven existing), but we're operating under the assumption it does exist.

Or am I missing something?

You pretty much nailed it.

 

[Toxic]

What exactly are you "keeping"? You don't believe in heaven. You don't think God is involved at all with the affairs of men. What's the point?

What's the point in yours? I may not follow what you do but that doesn't make my faith any less important than yours. I don't claim to have all the answers in regard to God or spirituality, but I do ask questions and I do keep an open mind. That's something hard core religious followers don't do.

I never said there weren't artists, doctors, scientists, etc that died in the Holocaust. Then again some survived it. Some survived by what they felt were miracles from God. Who are you to tell a holocaust survivor "Well God clearly didn't come through for you because He didn't come through for those that died"? Again the book of Job explains this. (I guess you've "evolved" beyond that). There is an enemy. There's more than one force at work in the universe. Sure God could always intervene and prevent any bad thing from happening, but that would deny people the ability to see what happens when freewill runs amuck and people make extremely bad choices.

Then that's still a form of cruelty, not the act of a loving god. A loving god would have put everyone into heaven without having to suffer. When you love someone, you do what you can to bring them happiness, not fuck around with them.

 

[jmdrake]

What's the point in yours? I may not follow what you do but that doesn't make my faith any less important than yours. I don't claim to have all the answers in regard to God or spirituality, but I do ask questions and I do keep an open mind. That's something hard core religious followers don't do.

Do you believe in God at all? Simple yes or no question.

Then that's still a form of cruelty, not the act of a loving god. A loving god would have put everyone into heaven without having to suffer. When you love someone, you do what you can to bring them happiness, not fuck around with them.

I thought you said you have an open mind? Clearly you don't. You have your own preset definitions of what a loving God is. If you love someone enough to give them freewill then you have to let them find happiness, even in suffering, rather than trying to bring it to them. There's a good story in Steven Covey's "The 7 habits of highly effective people" about a Holocaust survivor that found freedom, yea even a form of happiness in a concentration camp.

 

[Toxic]

You're arguing the case if God existed or if God was merciful certain things wouldn't happen? Then when an explanation is given for why God wouldn't stop the holocaust or other events, you say well God/Heaven/etc doesn't exist?

My point is that, for arguments sake let's say God exists, and Heaven exists, just go along with it. All your problems with divine intervention, God, the holocaust, and so on, that I've seen expressed in this thread are fully explained by the rationale I think I've put forth. Obviously my rationale is fallacious if the aforementioned premise is false (heaven existing), but we're operating under the assumption it does exist.

Or am I missing something?

I'm simply challenging certain conventional beliefs. If God is a loving god and can intervene when people need him, then he's been doing a shit job with us. He's a cruel sadist. I am not suggesting that there is no God, only that what we know of God is man-made mythology which does nothing but limit our minds and our natural desire to ask questions. I'm bothered by those who accept the writings of ancient beings as fact instead of accepting new information which is being discovered daily.

 

[Toxic]

Straw man argument combined with circular reasoning. You can't prove that God exists either. (As a "reformed Jew" do you even believe there is a God? If no then what is your "religion"?) The point is that if God exists and if He provides for His children a home in heaven then temporary suffering on earth is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

It's not meaningless. It's misery and pain in the reality we KNOW exists because we're here. And yes, I do believe there may be a God, but can admit to being clueless as to what God really is. I don't accept a literal interpretation of the Bible and I don't know that the authors had intended it to be taken literally. If they were here today, they may be appalled by what came of their writings.

 

[jmdrake]

It's not meaningless. It's misery and pain in the reality we KNOW exists because we're here. And yes, I do believe there may be a God, but can admit to being clueless as to what God really is. I don't accept a literal interpretation of the Bible and I don't know that the authors had intended it to be taken literally. If they were here today, they may be appalled by what came of their writings.

So you're really agnostic. Are all reformed Jews?

 

[jmdrake]

It's not meaningless. It's misery and pain in the reality we KNOW exists because we're here. And yes, I do believe there may be a God, but can admit to being clueless as to what God really is. I don't accept a literal interpretation of the Bible and I don't know that the authors had intended it to be taken literally. If they were here today, they may be appalled by what came of their writings.

The bad dream I had 10 years ago is meaningless to me today.

 

[Muwahid]

I'm simply challenging certain conventional beliefs. If God is a loving god and can intervene when people need him, then he's been doing a shit job with us. He's a cruel sadist. I am not suggesting that there is no God, only that what we know of God is man-made mythology which does nothing but limit our minds and our natural desire to ask questions. I'm bothered by those who accept the writings of ancient beings as fact instead of accepting new information which is being discovered daily.

When your mother rubbed that disinfectant on your cuts when you were a child, was she a sadist? Stung didn't it? But it saved you from something else perhaps. I'll go through the trials here for something better. Yes I can't prove empirically what I believe, but the signs convinced me.

Your opinion of right and wrong, cruel and merciful are all subjective, you're a fallible human, keep that in mind.

 

[Toxic]

Do you believe in God at all? Simple yes or no question.

I don't believe in what you think is God.

I thought you said you have an open mind? Clearly you don't. You have your own preset definitions of what a loving God is. If you love someone enough to give them freewill then you have to let them find happiness, even in suffering, rather than trying to bring it to them. There's a good story in Steven Covey's "The 7 habits of highly effective people" about a Holocaust survivor that found freedom, yea even a form of happiness in a concentration camp.

I do have an open mind, but I need to find the ideas presented to be at least somewhat logical. There is absolutely no good reason for an innocent child to be raped and murdered in this world. What the hell does "free will" have to do with that child spending his or her short time on this earth with such a tragic end? Why must the free will of some maniac affect another person in such a way?

 

[Toxic]

So you're really agnostic. Are all reformed Jews?

To some degree, I suppose. We tend to be open to various possibilities because as humans, we aren't perfect and we don't know everything, so we ask questions and explore in order expand our horizons and improve our lives. When you keep an open mind and something new is revealed, it doesn't jam up our brains or disappoint us, because we didn't have our minds made up to begin with. We generally believe that God is way too complex to understand and we may never find the answers in this life.

 

[Toxic]

When your mother rubbed that disinfectant on your cuts when you were a child, was she a sadist? Stung didn't it? But it saved you from something else perhaps. I'll go through the trials here for something better. Yes I can't prove empirically what I believe, but the signs convinced me.

Your opinion of right and wrong, cruel and merciful are all subjective, you're a fallible human, keep that in mind.

Putting disinfectant on a cut is necessary in order to prevent infection. Are you saying raping and murdering a small child is just as necessary?