Tired of the religious right putting down science

[CaptainAmerica]

The irony of this OP is off the scale.

 

[jmdrake]

I don't believe in what you think is God.

That wasn't my question. I asked if you believed in God at all. But you answered that in a separate post. In reality you don't believe in God at all. You accept that He might exist, but you aren't sure. That makes you an agnostic. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to just come out and say that.

I do have an open mind, but I need to find the ideas presented to be at least somewhat logical. There is absolutely no good reason for an innocent child to be raped and murdered in this world. What the hell does "free will" have to do with that child spending his or her short time on this earth with such a tragic end? Why must the free will of some maniac affect another person in such a way?

Granting man freewill means allowing the good along with the bad. With sin came death. The tragic death of the child you described answers the question for the rest of the universe "What will happen if you agree with Lucifer and rebel against God?" As far as ideas being presented logically, that requires you to be willing to accept the other persons presuppositions. If you can't even fathom the idea that heaven may exist because that hasn't been "proven" yet then, despite your claims to the contrary, you don't have an open mind and you aren't willing to hear logic. A logical argument doesn't require every premise to be proven true, but merely the premise to at least be accepted for the sake of the argument.

 

[Muwahid]

Putting disinfectant on a cut is necessary in order to prevent infection. Are you saying raping and murdering a small child is just as necessary?

God doesn't do that

The point is the pain you go through is for the best ultimately. Your parent doesn't like to see you cry, as God doesn't like to see you in pain, but the pain will result in something good in the end.

 

[Toxic]

God doesn't do that

The point is the pain you go through is for the best ultimately. Your parent doesn't like to see you cry, as God doesn't like to see you in pain, but the pain will result in something good in the end.

That's comforting, but it's baseless.

 

[jmdrake]

To some degree, I suppose. We tend to be open to various possibilities because as humans, we aren't perfect and we don't know everything, so we ask questions and explore in order expand our horizons and improve our lives. When you keep an open mind and something new is revealed, it doesn't jam up our brains or disappoint us, because we didn't have our minds made up to begin with. We generally believe that God is way too complex to understand and we may never find the answers in this life.

Ah, but you seem so sure that you know at least some of the answers. In your view God can't have the ability to intervene or He must "suck" at it or He must be "cruel". The idea that in the next life (if it exists) you might find the answer that "God actually can intervene, does sometimes, and ultimately it will all makes sense" is rejected by you apriori.

There is an episode of the BBC science fiction series "Dr. Who" where he goes back in time to prevent the beginning of the Dalek race which would become his arch enemy and a scourge on the entire universe. Right before he is to carry out the deed, he hesitates and thinks about all of the good that resulted from the evil of the Daleks. (Societies that put aside their differences and worked together for instance). He still tried to go through with it, but as space time continuum would have it, he failed. I believe that if you "Toxic" became a "time lord" and could go back and kill Hitler, when you went back to the future centuries later you would find you had accomplished more harm than good. Can I prove that? No. Is it possible? Most definitely.

 

[jmdrake]

The irony of this OP is off the scale.

You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.

 

[BattleFlag1776]

The irony of this OP is off the scale.

+REP

 

[tttppp]

You have zero understanding of science and scientists.

I have a very good understanding of science and scientists. They waste time studying the most pointless of things. They are always looking to make the smallest of changes on our current understanding of things. In the health field for example, how many scientists are actually studying potential cures? In the energy field, how many scientists are studying energy processes that are far better than our current energy systems?

 

[Toxic]

Ah, but you seem so sure that you know at least some of the answers. In your view God can't have the ability to intervene or He must "suck" at it or He must be "cruel". The idea that in the next life (if it exists) you might find the answer that "God actually can intervene, does sometimes, and ultimately it will all makes sense" is rejected by you apriori.

There is an episode of the BBC science fiction series "Dr. Who" where he goes back in time to prevent the beginning of the Dalek race which would become his arch enemy and a scourge on the entire universe. Right before he is to carry out the deed, he hesitates and thinks about all of the good that resulted from the evil of the Daleks. (Societies that put aside their differences and worked together for instance). He still tried to go through with it, but as space time continuum would have it, he failed. I believe that if you "Toxic" became a "time lord" and could go back and kill Hitler, when you went back to the future centuries later you would find you had accomplished more harm than good. Can I prove that? No. Is it possible? Most definitely.

I know faith and logic don't really go hand in hand, but I have a problem with people suggesting there is a loving God and a god who intervenes to help people. This makes no sense based on the horrors we face in this world. And I refuse to accept the excuses.

Based on Biblical stories, God communicated with man in a much more direct manner and wild events used to take place like the parting of the Red Sea and Noah's Ark. But where have ll these events been in the past few thousand years? We've seen nothing close occur at all. This would leave me to believe that the Biblical stories are either pure fiction, metaphors, or exaggerations of actual events. The way I see it, you either accept the Bible as a literal piece of information or something open to interpretation. And if it's open to interpretation, then saying God is a certain way or that heaven definitely exists, is beyond illogical. There is no clear explanation in heaven, especially in the Old Testament, so that can clearly be open to interpretation, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Toxic]

Ah, but you seem so sure that you know at least some of the answers. In your view God can't have the ability to intervene or He must "suck" at it or He must be "cruel". The idea that in the next life (if it exists) you might find the answer that "God actually can intervene, does sometimes, and ultimately it will all makes sense" is rejected by you apriori.

There is an episode of the BBC science fiction series "Dr. Who" where he goes back in time to prevent the beginning of the Dalek race which would become his arch enemy and a scourge on the entire universe. Right before he is to carry out the deed, he hesitates and thinks about all of the good that resulted from the evil of the Daleks. (Societies that put aside their differences and worked together for instance). He still tried to go through with it, but as space time continuum would have it, he failed. I believe that if you "Toxic" became a "time lord" and could go back and kill Hitler, when you went back to the future centuries later you would find you had accomplished more harm than good. Can I prove that? No. Is it possible? Most definitely.

I know faith and logic don't really go hand in hand, but I have a problem with people suggesting there is a loving God and a god who intervenes to help people. This makes no sense based on the horrors we face in this world. And I refuse to accept the excuses.

Based on Biblical stories, God communicated with man in a much more direct manner and wild events used to take place like the parting of the Red Sea and Noah's Ark. But where have ll these events been in the past few thousand years? We've seen nothing close occur at all. This would leave me to believe that the Biblical stories are either pure fiction, metaphors, or exaggerations of actual events. The way I see it, you either accept the Bible as a literal piece of information or something open to interpretation. And if it's open to interpretation, then saying God is a certain way or that heaven definitely exists, is beyond illogical. There is no clear explanation in heaven, especially in the Old Testament, so that can clearly be open to interpretation, wouldn't you agree?

 

[MelissaWV]

Why do bad things happen? I don't know. If there's some omnipotent, omniscient being behind it all, I don't mind. What I have been through has brought me to this particular place in my life, and I'm happy here. For all I know, one less bad thing happening would have meant I'd have missed meeting the people I love most in this world. It's not necessarily true that something good will come from every bad thing, but it's possible. The people arguing about this in a mocking tone seem not to know much about what they're whining about.

 

[jmdrake]

I know faith and logic don't really go hand in hand, but I have a problem with people suggesting there is a loving God and a god who intervenes to help people. This makes no sense based on the horrors we face in this world. And I refuse to accept the excuses.

Well I'm saying faith and logic go hand in hand based on presuppositions. If you accept for arguments sake that certain things are true you can derive logical conclusions from them. For instance, certain logical conclusions can be drawn from the assumptions that the Greek myths were true in whole or in part. (The city of Troy was found for instance). Now, if you refuse to accept my conclusions that's on you. I can't force you to accept anything. I can you the Dr. Who example (which you seem to have ignored) to point out that a being could have the power to intervene on a particular issue, then decide not to based on the long term consequences. Since you're stuck on the Holocaust I will use that as an example. The state of Israel would not exist as it does today but for the Holocaust. In fact prior to the Holocaust most Orthodox Jews were anti-Zionist. (Some still are). Is the existence of the state of Israel good or bad? That can be argued either way. That's what I meant when I said I don't have a "cosmic calculator". It's like the butterfly effect. According to at least one rendition of chaos theory, a butterfly flapping its wings can cause a hurricane on the other side of the world. True? I don't know.

Based on Biblical stories, God communicated with man in a much more direct manner and wild events used to take place like the parting of the Red Sea and Noah's Ark. But where have ll these events been in the past few thousand years? We've seen nothing close occur at all.

You haven't seen that. There are prophecies from more recent times that possibly predicted certain events such as 9/11. And of course the skeptic can say "coincidence". But let's take the Noah's ark story. An unknown number of people died. Noah escaped. An intervention on the part of Noah but not for everybody else. Some people had seemingly miraculous escapes from Nazi Germany. Just dumb luck? Maybe. Maybe not. I was reading the book A Thousand Shall Fall about a Christian who was drafted into Hitler's army who didn't want to kill anyone. (Great book by the way). He managed to get through the entire war without having to kill. His family faced persecution from the Nazis at home, but there are times when things "just fell into place" for them. For instance his wife was called into see a Nazi official who just happened to be out sick and the person who replaced him just happened to have been helped by another Christian from one of her sister churches and he felt so grateful that he didn't punish her like the other official would have but instead helped her. Coincidence? Maybe. The story was by their daughter. Do you think it was just "made up"? Because I don't.

This would leave me to believe that the Biblical stories are either pure fiction, metaphors, or exaggerations of actual events. The way I see it, you either accept the Bible as a literal piece of information or something open to interpretation. And if it's open to interpretation, then saying God is a certain way or that heaven definitely exists, is beyond illogical. There is no clear explanation in heaven, especially in the Old Testament, so that can clearly be open to interpretation, wouldn't you agree?

The book of Isaiah gives a pretty good description of heaven. (New heavens and a new earth being created. Lions lying down with lambs. Once a week on Sabbath and once a month everyone coming together to worship God.) But again, your logic fails you if you are stuck on arguing whether or not heaven exists. You're trying to say that God can't be a certain way. (Loving, with the ability to intervene, but not always intervening). I'm saying that if you accept the possibility of heaven existing as I imagine it, even if it's only a figment of my imagination, then you have to at least accept the possibility that in the grand scheme of things what happens in a 100 year trial run of life has little meaning if any compared to eternity. It would be no different than if I said "If Mt Olympus exists as described in the Greek myths then X, Y or Z".

 

[bunklocoempire]

From the Lutheran Hymnal "Prayer of the Church":

"...Arouse curious minds to discover the wonders of your created order."

Now why is it I never hear anything about science encouraging faith in God?

EDIT: Loss of grants perhaps? lol

 

[erowe1]

I know faith and logic don't really go hand in hand

On the contrary, logic is utterly dependent on faith.

 

[PierzStyx]

Religious Right??

I'm tired of the Religious Wrong?

You know,, the only people Jesus ever spoke harshly to or about were the Religious ones.

Not true. Though he was perhaps extra harsh on them, especially because they should have known better.

 

[PierzStyx]

Allow me to explain. I use proof in the strictest meaning of the word, in other words something that is hardcore evidence of something being true. We can chalk up a lot of what's in the scriptures as perhaps anecdotal evidence, but that's not the strongest type. We refer to verse in the Qur'an as "ayaats" meaning "signs" because they're just signs, meant to guide us in the right direction.

My original point was if there is a God, Heaven, or Angels within the confines of this universe, who abide by the laws of this universe, and who can scientifically exist then this is no God, Heaven, or Angel.

I think what you refer to are miracles which cannot be proven scientifically. Me personally I don't believe in things like near-death experiences because I believe we have a date and time when we die, and there's no such thing as near-death or almost dying. But we have plenty of miracles in Islam, both from the scriptures that are reported by many people and authenticated as well as modern day, like divinely inspired dreams, the "ebtesimaat ash-shuhada" which are "smiling martyrs", and interestingly something I saw in Catholicism called "Incorruptibility" where the dead Saints do not decay, we also share this as a "sign" of God and Heaven.

If we could take an Atheist and show him or her all these things they then may be inclined to believe but it wouldn't be 100% concrete proof, solid fact that God exists or "x" religion is correct, or heaven exists.

Therefore I believe firmly religion(s) will never be a provable fact, and that's why we are rewarded for believing in God and living our lives according to his morality, we do not have to bring a big telescope out and find "heaven" for God to exist, because God is a higher power than that, God is the creator of science and therefore can NOT conflict with it, and does not have to obey by it's laws.

Faith requires faith

Ah. I understand what you are saying. Faith does indeed require faith. And in any belief, in all except the most solidly demonstrable cases (such as two apples + two apples= four apples) that is the case. Even in science. But for me the fact that in all forms of humanity, across all spectrum of belief, there are eyewitnesses to Heaven, that there is life after death, and that their descriptions relate so well, begins to act as evidence. To deny that possibility when confronted with so much evidence seems arrogant to me.

 

[PierzStyx]

These "heavenly" phenomenas have been scientifically explained. Often times it's chemical reactions in the brains, or dreams even that make people believe they are seeing bright lights, hovering, or seeing dead family members. People who want to believe will see what they want to see. There have been thousands of people who have claimed to have seen alien space crafts and aliens themselves. Are they all correct?

No, science has explained nothing. What science ha shown is that when you experience a real physical feeling, part of what happens to you is a physical and chemical reaction. And well..... DUH! What kind of idiot wouldn't expect something like that when experience a physical action/emotion to something. Of course you're going to have chemical reactions in your brain when you physically feel something. But to cut it off there as answering everything is incredibly assumptive. And to rely upon that as "evidence" is just horrible science.

 

[PierzStyx]

Using scripture to claim facts doesn't work. If you ask a scientist how the earth formed, he can provide you with plenty of scientific data collected over the years to do so. Your tactic would be to say, "Well the Bible says..."

Sorry, but years upon years of scientific discoveries bets the hell out of an ancient text any day. The earth is not flat.

The scriptures never say the Earth is flat. Actually the Bible says nothing about the shape of the Earth at all.

What scientific data? If its anything like you said in your previous post then it is meaningless because those discoveries assert no such claim (i.e. God and/or Heaven does not exist).

And my tactic isn't to say "The Bible says...." My tactic is to say that MILLIONS of people from all over the world, Christian, Jew, Agnostic, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Muslim, et. al. all have eyewitness accounts of Heaven. From the ancient prophets to modern day near-death experiences, people totally unrelated and unconnected, belief systems that have nothing in common, all witness to the reality of the afterlife, of Heaven.

And here is the funny thing, and my previous point. None of it matters, not because the evidence isn't there and isn't compelling. The reason it doesn't matter is YOU are a HORRIBLE scientist. Instead of making a hypothesis and testing it, you've made a conclusion and only accept what supports your conclusion. Anything doesn't go along you dismiss not upon its merits but because it challenges you're already, pre-made conclusion.

Also I find it fascinating you responded to my post on your doctrinal questions and did not comment at all on my answers to your questions. And by the way, using scripture to answer questions about doctrine is completely valid. You just don't want to listen.

 

[PierzStyx]

That's a nice story.

See simply denying what you don't like. *shakes head* Horrible science.

 

[erowe1]

Actually the Bible says nothing about the shape of the Earth at all.

I wouldn't say that.
"He suspends the earth over nothing." - Job 26:7
"He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters." - Job 26:10
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth." - Isa 40:22
"He drew a circle on the face of the deep." - Prov 8:27

Ancient Greek philosophers were also well aware that the world was round, and calculated its circumference fairly accurately.